A few questions about the Byzantine Emperors

[Rosacrux redux]

Now, spelling those names in the true medieval Greek fashion would be quite an undertaking of itself, huh?

Just a rule of thumb: Most "B"s in the beginning of a name (and many others) are actually pronounced "V", most "u"s when after an "e" are pronounced as "ph" and most "D"'s in the beginning of the words are pronounced "Th" (as in "the").

Some examples:
- Basileus: Vasilephs
- Basileios: Vasileios
- Doukas: Thoukas
etc. etc.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Thanks again. This bit I actually know. Two (γ)s make an ng, (π) following (μ) is pronounced b, right?

The problem is, how should we transcribe them? Academy seems to stick to the ancient pronounciation rather than the Koine. (η) is still transcribed as e (smetimes é or ê) and so on.
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[Rosacrux redux]

Mouzaphere, do you live in Greece? You have a great interest in our language (and it's evolution over the ages) and I find that great.

Also, I take it you accept the erasmian pronounciation, yes? Well, I don't and I believe the ancient Greeks did speak Greek, not greekified latin... the Koene (the medieval Greek dialect evolved directly from Koene and was quite close related anyway) was spoken in a non-erasmian manner, and Koene has evolved in the early 3rd century BC directly from Attic - why would've Attic be spoken differently?

The transcription problem exists anyway, as it's a different alphabet anyway. I usually prefer a phonetic approach, but many'o'times I stick with the official (latinized) writing, in order to make sense to non-Greek audiences.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Thanks. I'm living right across the pond.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Erasmian pronounciation all that "Alexius" instead of "Aleksios" stuff? I'm not in favour of it, no. In earlier times, languages adopted others into their own structure; the Latins and later humanists would spell anything in Latin, Arabs according to Arabic phonetics and so on. I'm sure Dâriûsh would be quite surprised if he heard how classical Farsi was pronounced in Turkish.

I'm just trying to stick to a more or less common academic format for sake of intelligibility. Being able to transcribe every language into others phonetically would be fine. (Actually it's quite possible using IPA and similar systems.) But for increasing readability, compromises are made. Arabic alphabet, for instance, is also too 'roundishly' transcribed into English/Western languages. Faisal would detest to this.

Having said that, there are no certain academic conventions without exceptions. Back to Greek, the Western academia transcribes "χ" as "chi" but here in Turkey "khi" is used. Same is valid for "ξ", which is notated as "x" or "ks".


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[Meneldil]

Thanks to both of you for your useful explanation and for the name list

[Byzantine Prince]

Mouzaphere, do you live in Greece? You have a great interest in our language (and it's evolution over the ages) and I find that great.

Mouz lives in Istambul and even though he's turkish I like him.

Also, I take it you accept the erasmian pronounciation, yes? Well, I don't and I believe the ancient Greeks did speak Greek, not greekified latin...

Don't go there. You are going to get warned once the Wizard shows up and starts talking about his school.

[L'Impresario]

Well as this thread has served its purpose, maybe it's allowed to stray a bit heh.

The erasmian pronounciation has to do with the sounds of dipthongs and many other letters (eg. β pronounced as b, υ pronounced as modern ου, before being modified into ϋ and then settling into today’s ι) in the attic dialect.

Well, I don't and I believe the ancient Greeks did speak Greek, not greekified latin

Actually they spoke Greek, just in a quite ancient way heh
As Greeks are being schooled for so many years in ancient greek by using the modern pronounciation –which is the best way not only to acquire easier a good knowledge of the ancient language but also to facilitate foreigners in learning the modern one-, it is only natural that they would believe they know the best. But at an academical level this won’t suffice. I’ll be using some references later on drawn from a 72-page school manual distributed in the last junior high school equivalent class, written by D. E. Tombaidis (Δ. Ε. Τομπαίδης) and published by the ΟΕΔΒ (known to all greek students heh), just to show that there is official greek material which are following the international view on the matter of pronounciation, but it isn’t taught at all.
Also people tend to say that it “sounds bad” if the ancient texts are read the erasmian way. I don’t think we can be the judges of that heh. That is not to say that the erasmian pronounciation is accurate; there are more recent works that have analysed in great depth the pronounciation issue. Ofcourse a 100% reproduction of those sounds seems rather unachievable nowdays, as there are always great problems regarding the tonical system that the ancient Greeks used, and the pitch accents, as this was what comprised the tonical system until the early hellenistic period -already some of its elements were compromised- and not the higher volume placed on a syllable.
Even among the dialects of the 7th and 6th century significant differences existed. Through centuries of interaction many changes -phonetic,morphological,syntactical etc- took place, and as it is well known, the koine speakers’ inability to use the attic dialect (they came from a vast number of places anyway) led to the amalgamation of the “i”s, among many other things.
A very simple argument regarding how the pronounciation should have been, is revolving around that, ancient greeks using a phonetic orthography, in contrast to our modern historical one.
On the subject of transliteration, I don’t find for example “e” a bad substitute for “η”. Here’s an excerpt from an 6th century attic inscription I just copied from the above-mentioned manual: «ΣΕΜΑ ΦΡΑΣΙΚΛΕΙΑΣ ΚΟΡΕ ΚΕΚΛΕΣΟΜΑΙ ΑΙΕΙ…», reading «ΣΗΜΑ ΦΡΑΣΙΚΛΕΙΑΣ΄ΚΟΡΗ ΚΕΚΛΕΣΟΜΑΙ ΑΙΕΙ».



Hope I ain't opening any Pandora's box here ;)

[Seleukos]

I dont think thats the right thread for discussing the right pronounciation of the ancient.
But i ll mention my opinion:
First of all noone really knows 100% the exact way that ancient Greeks spoke.
Maybe the erasmian is closer to the ancient,but i think at least we,the Greeks,and maybe all,should read with the new Greek pron.
Thats because Greek is a living language-modern is a product of evolution-there is no real standard "ancient greek"- it differed in time and region.

As for the subject of the thread refers to medieval greek,but unfortunately most of the names of people as well as units are written with erasmian.
(i remember in MTW: Pronoiai Allagion-the byz.pronounced it pronie ! )

[L'Impresario]

Maybe the erasmian is closer to the ancient,but i think at least we,the Greeks,and maybe all,should read with the new Greek pron.
Thats because Greek is a living language-modern is a product of evolution-there is no real standard "ancient greek"- it differed in time and region.

Yes I concure, but the orthography on the Pronoiai and other units is supposed to match the historical one, even in latin characters. We still write it that way and pronounce it the way the original pronoiarii (note the graeco-latin liberty here heh) did. The erasmian and the other pronounciation don't refer to medieval Greek anyway.