A few questions about the Byzantine Emperors

[Byzantine Prince]

Mouzaphere, do you live in Greece? You have a great interest in our language (and it's evolution over the ages) and I find that great.

Mouz lives in Istambul and even though he's turkish I like him.

Also, I take it you accept the erasmian pronounciation, yes? Well, I don't and I believe the ancient Greeks did speak Greek, not greekified latin...

Don't go there. You are going to get warned once the Wizard shows up and starts talking about his school.

[L'Impresario]

Well as this thread has served its purpose, maybe it's allowed to stray a bit heh.

The erasmian pronounciation has to do with the sounds of dipthongs and many other letters (eg. β pronounced as b, υ pronounced as modern ου, before being modified into ϋ and then settling into today’s ι) in the attic dialect.

Well, I don't and I believe the ancient Greeks did speak Greek, not greekified latin

Actually they spoke Greek, just in a quite ancient way heh
As Greeks are being schooled for so many years in ancient greek by using the modern pronounciation –which is the best way not only to acquire easier a good knowledge of the ancient language but also to facilitate foreigners in learning the modern one-, it is only natural that they would believe they know the best. But at an academical level this won’t suffice. I’ll be using some references later on drawn from a 72-page school manual distributed in the last junior high school equivalent class, written by D. E. Tombaidis (Δ. Ε. Τομπαίδης) and published by the ΟΕΔΒ (known to all greek students heh), just to show that there is official greek material which are following the international view on the matter of pronounciation, but it isn’t taught at all.
Also people tend to say that it “sounds bad” if the ancient texts are read the erasmian way. I don’t think we can be the judges of that heh. That is not to say that the erasmian pronounciation is accurate; there are more recent works that have analysed in great depth the pronounciation issue. Ofcourse a 100% reproduction of those sounds seems rather unachievable nowdays, as there are always great problems regarding the tonical system that the ancient Greeks used, and the pitch accents, as this was what comprised the tonical system until the early hellenistic period -already some of its elements were compromised- and not the higher volume placed on a syllable.
Even among the dialects of the 7th and 6th century significant differences existed. Through centuries of interaction many changes -phonetic,morphological,syntactical etc- took place, and as it is well known, the koine speakers’ inability to use the attic dialect (they came from a vast number of places anyway) led to the amalgamation of the “i”s, among many other things.
A very simple argument regarding how the pronounciation should have been, is revolving around that, ancient greeks using a phonetic orthography, in contrast to our modern historical one.
On the subject of transliteration, I don’t find for example “e” a bad substitute for “η”. Here’s an excerpt from an 6th century attic inscription I just copied from the above-mentioned manual: «ΣΕΜΑ ΦΡΑΣΙΚΛΕΙΑΣ ΚΟΡΕ ΚΕΚΛΕΣΟΜΑΙ ΑΙΕΙ…», reading «ΣΗΜΑ ΦΡΑΣΙΚΛΕΙΑΣ΄ΚΟΡΗ ΚΕΚΛΕΣΟΜΑΙ ΑΙΕΙ».



Hope I ain't opening any Pandora's box here ;)

[Seleukos]

I dont think thats the right thread for discussing the right pronounciation of the ancient.
But i ll mention my opinion:
First of all noone really knows 100% the exact way that ancient Greeks spoke.
Maybe the erasmian is closer to the ancient,but i think at least we,the Greeks,and maybe all,should read with the new Greek pron.
Thats because Greek is a living language-modern is a product of evolution-there is no real standard "ancient greek"- it differed in time and region.

As for the subject of the thread refers to medieval greek,but unfortunately most of the names of people as well as units are written with erasmian.
(i remember in MTW: Pronoiai Allagion-the byz.pronounced it pronie ! )

[L'Impresario]

Maybe the erasmian is closer to the ancient,but i think at least we,the Greeks,and maybe all,should read with the new Greek pron.
Thats because Greek is a living language-modern is a product of evolution-there is no real standard "ancient greek"- it differed in time and region.

Yes I concure, but the orthography on the Pronoiai and other units is supposed to match the historical one, even in latin characters. We still write it that way and pronounce it the way the original pronoiarii (note the graeco-latin liberty here heh) did. The erasmian and the other pronounciation don't refer to medieval Greek anyway.

[Rosacrux redux]

Yes, Erasmian is about Attic and pre... I have dismissed Erasmian long ago due to obvious reasons: Greek isn't a "dead language" as Latin, it has evolved over the centuries (Attic->Koene->Medieval-> and from here to several branches of Demodes-kathomiloumeni and the despicable anachronism the Katharevousa was, to todays Dimotiki). It makes only sense to take the most logical approach to the problem - since we don't know how ancient Greeks talked, what do we know?

We do know that even Koene was pronounced more or less like modern Greek, correct? So, why would the Greeks change so much during only a few generations (from the fading of the Attic to the domination of Koene)?

I think Erasmian is based on the wrong premise that there has to be a "pure" way of speaking Greek and that the ancient Greeks, before they mingled with others, are the only ones possesing that way. Also, it was meant to provide with the not accustomed to Greek westeners with an easier way to speak Greek.
It's a rather racist approach to a linguistic issue, prejudiced and bogus if I might say.

Ah, Mouzaphere, nice to meet you neighbour!

[edyzmedieval]

I am finally learning Greek.

Useful for a Byzantium mod leader....

[L'Impresario]

I think Erasmian is based on the wrong premise that there has to be a "pure" way of speaking Greek and that the ancient Greeks, before they mingled with others, are the only ones possesing that way. Also, it was meant to provide with the not accustomed to Greek westeners with an easier way to speak Greek.
It's a rather racist approach to a linguistic issue, prejudiced and bogus if I might say

Well I'm sure many from the opposite side could say something similar heh
Nevertheless one cannot brand all academic efforts that don't point towards a modern greek pronounciation of the classical languages as "erasmian". AFAIK Allen's "Vox Graeca" also doesn't offer a definitive 100% answer to all such issues. But it is undeniable that there has been quite a research on this matter, professors didn't wake up one day with such ideas and decided to impose them on all others;)
And there is evidence with which one can work, such as loans and mutual words with other languages, the grammar manuals found in Alexandria etc.
Also it took centuries for the changes to occur, and regional dissimilarities were more than evident. For example we have around 5 centuries in order for "ο" and "ω" to start acquiring the same sound and duration.
It doesn't defy logic that when one looks at all those ει,οι,ι,η,υ etc, he might start thinking that there must be a reason for such a diversity in orthography. I don't offer this ofcourse as a way of how classicists and linguists work lol
At an even simpler level, it took me also many years to understand why my grandmother of pontic descent often pronounced some endings like "-ης/η" as "-ες/ε" heh

edyzmedieval,
yes that's very nice, if you need any help at all (though I 'm not specialised in humanistic studies), I 'm sure many of the greek speakers here will be willing to help (plus I m quite interested myself in romanian, not to mention some dozen of other languages ;)).