The Official KoD thread *SPOILERS*

[Antagonist]

That epilogue was great, I must say. Very well written.

Regarding the Black Tower, I think it's pretty well established that Mazrim Taim is a Bad Guy. I don't know if you've followed the WoT fan community at all, but for a long time (pretty much from when he first appeared in Lord of Chaos) there was a very popular theory that Mazrim Taim was in fact the Forsaken Demandred, although events in Winter's Heart disproved this. I think it was also Winter's Heart that proved that Gedwyn, Torval, Rochaid and Kisman, the four Asha'man who attacked Rand Al'Thor in the book before that were also all Darkfriends. All four of them were Taim's personal "students" and IIRC it actually explicitly states that Taim ordered them to kill Rand.

Also, I'm pretty sure than in the KoD epilogue all the Asha'man present are laughing (hundreds) which is pretty significant. So basically it's like this: Rand Al'Thor established the Black Tower and oversees it in it's infancy, but once the recruitment really gets up and running he just leaves it all to Taim - I don't think he's even visited there since then. In fact his only contact with the Black Tower seems to be to send for more Asha'man occasionally. He has a few of the earliest Asha'man with him (guys like Narishma and Flinn) and they are loyal to him personally, and maybe a few others like Logain, but the rest of the Asha'man have probably never seen Rand Al'Thor, all they know from the Black Tower is Taim. They may nominally swear allegiance to the Dragon Reborn, but their true loyalty is to the M'Hael, Mazrim Taim. And if Mazrim Taim is a Darkfriend.... No doubt it this will make a very interesting plot thread.

I think that's right. I read KoD recently (duh) but it's been a year or more since I read the rest of the series, so I'm probably a bit rusty.

Antagonist

[Steppe Merc]

Yeah, Taim is deffinetly a Darkfriend. I don't think he's Demodred as many previously thought, because at the showdown in that haunted city (Shahol Ghul?), he didn't recongnize one of Rand's Ashaman.

He was probably trained by one of the Forsaken though, consider how quickly he picks up on a lot of things.

[Andreas]

And Jordan has said right out that he is not:)

[SMZ]

yeah - that epilogue was very cool - I could picture it so vividly...

Anyone else notice the extra chairs in the meeting of the Forsaken? I think the DO has raised new people to Forsaken level and only Moridin knows this. Everything else that Moridin does has symbolic meaning, I'm sure the additional chairs are there for a reason

I'm guessing Taim is now one of the "Chosen". Any specualtion as to who else may be?

[Lord Winter]

yeah - that epilogue was very cool - I could picture it so vividly...

Anyone else notice the extra chairs in the meeting of the Forsaken? I think the DO has raised new people to Forsaken level and only Moridin knows this. Everything else that Moridin does has symbolic meaning, I'm sure the additional chairs are there for a reason

I'm guessing Taim is now one of the "Chosen". Any specualtion as to who else may be?

Problely just taim because only three have been lost beyond the D.O. reach.
Rahivin and Be'al and the D.O. just is refuseing to reincarnate Asomondan we guess any way.
Interesting Sammual is still alive or so it seems.

[Antagonist]

Didn't Jordan go on record (at a convention or a signing or something) and state unambiguously that Sammael was dead? That's what I recall, anyway. I think there's something like that in the various FAQ's around.

Antagonist

[Lord Winter]

Didn't Jordan go on record (at a convention or a signing or something) and state unambiguously that Sammael was dead? That's what I recall, anyway. I think there's something like that in the various FAQ's around.

Antagonist

Sammual could have been reincarnated like mordrin, os' gnar and ang'nar

[Andreas]

Yes, he only said he did not survive Shadar Logoth, not that he isn't ressed IIRC.

[Steppe Merc]

But wasn't balefire used against him?
Mabye someone pretending to be Sammael was commanding those Trollocs they mentioned. That's what I figured, anyway.

[Ashton]

I believe RJ has said that if the dark one has advanced warning of balefire which shall take place he can be ready to catch the dying person, also it depends on the amount of balefire used.

If we assumed that the Dark One knows what his chapion knows and does similarly to shadar haron, then we can guess he was ready for it as the 2 flows of balefire combine to hit Sammael if it is Mordin's "lance of balefire whihc hits first we could assume the balefire is week and thus the 2 nessesities for the dark one to save Sammael are there.

[Steppe Merc]

I never got why Morodin would want to kill Sammael...

[Andreas]

Nope, it was the Mashadar(sp...?) that killed him. Rand directed his bale to kill the maiden instead, to save her form the above mentioned.

And you do not survive bales, no matter the size of them.

[Renly]

I just finished KoD earlier today. Few things I've noticed, for one, I read an interview with Jordan where he flat out said we'd found out who killed Asmodean in KoD. Looks like he either forgot or just hadn't thought the whole plot out yet. Also, Jordan said he wouldn't go over 12 books, yet I don't see the series ending in one more book. There's just too much left to happen.

Egwene totally has the tower in the palm of her hand, it's only a matter of time before the rebels take the city.

I also thought that one of the most intriguing cliffhangers was Lan's mission in the Borderlands. He's going to do some damage.

[Steppe Merc]

I understand that RJ has admitted he has to extend the books. As for Asmodean, it wasn't cleared up, unless I missed anything.

As for Egwene, I don't get why they haven't assaulted the Tower. I fail to see how gathering a few novices and Aes Sedai can help make her Aymaril. Surely Gareth will need to assault the Tower, otherwise why is he even there?

[Renly]

Yeah, but I have a feeling that once Egwene convinces enough sisters to her cause, they'll take Elaida down, maybe even without an assault.

[SMZ]

Yeah - it's amazing that she has anybody supporting her in such a short time...

The sisters rarely show what they're thinking - but given the amount of support the novices and Accepted are showing - you've got to wonder what is going on in the sisters heads... They're all worried about the decaying situation in the tower with the Ajahs splitting... and the news of Elaidas various bunglings - how many of them are thinking that maybe that "other" Amyrlin might be a better choice... remember it was a sister that compared her to Cadsuane

The Mistress of Novices is a powerful position - and support from her can gather a good backing - Egwene came to power among the rebels with support from their Mistress...

---

If anyone saw something NEW about Asmodean - I wanna know - lol... and I mean NEW... not the same old theories...

---

Personally I'm hoping RJ goes for 13 books. It'll have more symbolism - and let him complete everything nicely... there's still so much to be done

[Lord Winter]

I understand that RJ has admitted he has to extend the books. As for Asmodean, it wasn't cleared up, unless I missed anything.

As for Egwene, I don't get why they haven't assaulted the Tower. I fail to see how gathering a few novices and Aes Sedai can help make her Aymaril. Surely Gareth will need to assault the Tower, otherwise why is he even there?

Surly he dosn't want too many causulties. You have to relize with tar valon you cant use seige towers and can only asulut the walls above the bridges. It will not be an esay seige.
As for Asmodean maybe he reveiled somthing in the diriction of sermighedge(just a feeling)

[Ripipip]

But why can´t they will just travel inside the walls at night when nobody is prepered. Surely they would win quite easy?

[Steppe Merc]

Yeah. Travel inside, slit Elaida's throat (or still her), and any other major leaders, shield or still the rest of the Aes Sedai, and raise Egwene again.

[Renly]

That would work. But I still feel that Egwene wants a completely non-violent end to the conflict. You can definetly see the Mistress of Novices (Can't remember the name) starting to drift over to Egwene's side, simply because she won't give in.

[moreb_benhk]

Regardless of whether that worked or not, it would kill a very large number of sisters, and the White Tower cannot afford to lose any more numbers. There is also the possibility that would fail too (however slight), which would definately screw the Tower over. Between the 'negotiations' and the hunt for the Black Ajah and Egwene, I'm thinking a non-violent resolution (heh, atleast for the non-Blacks) of the split can easily be achieved.

[Steppe Merc]

Well I hate the Aes Sedai, so I'm not that understanding of their plots.

[Andreas]

I understand that RJ has admitted he has to extend the books.

I do not think so, since he has said he will make it 3000 pages of that is needed. He says he cannot write to complete books, it will be like splitting a normal book to one part with no real ending, it will just stop.

[SMZ]

wordems - I hope that he will write such a massive story - that the publishers will have to split it

[Andreas]

That could cause problems... He seems like wanting to get his way

[SMZ]

yeah - but it's impossible to print a 3000 page story

it would have to come in leather-bound edition only... and even that would be pushing it...

I just hope he doesn't shove it all in 700 pages... I'm pretty sure the story would suffer

[moreb_benhk]

Heh. Or maybe they'd just release the last book all at the same time, in ~900 page parts. The publishers would sure love that.

[cdaulepp]

I wanted to continue a discussion with Andreas from another thread, but since our discussion wasn't about the Campaign Map and since it contains KoD spoilers I thought this would be a good place to continue.

I agree with you that Seanchan can't field 1 million soldiers. I don't think New_Name was saying that either. I'll have to go back and look, but I think he has the Seanchan at roughly 600,000 soldiers by the end of KoD. That includes all the Seanchan native troops along with all of the conscripts they've had join from Tarabon, Almoth Plain, Amador, and Altara in the past couple years.

I agree with you that 1 million is probably too many soldiers for the Seanchan to have, but I think New_Name's estimate of 600K is about right. How do you feel about 600 K soldiers? (I think the Seanchan have about 250-350 K native soldiers and about 300K enlistees from Randland).

cdaulepp

[Werthead]

300K from Seanchan sounds about right. Luthair took 300K with him across the Aryth to conquer Seanchan in the first place and that took about 3000 ships, so the descriptions of the hundreds and hundreds of ships at Ebou Dar (and even more at Tanchico according to Winter's Heart), plus the fact that the Forerunners seemed to have 200-500 ships by themselves in Great Hunt would seem to move into that ball park. I'm guessing the settlers came across seperately but shortly afterwards (although this dovetails into the colossal distance from Randland to Seanchan, which is another subject altogether).

[Andreas]

Uhm, 600K could be fair enough... 300K from seanchan at least... I doubt they would be able to produce 300K westland soldiers in an actual fight though:)