The Official KoD thread *SPOILERS*

**SMZ** · 11-01-2005, 20:06

*SPOILERS*
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Now that that's out of the way...

It's time to talk about things we all noticed in KoD and how that may impact this here mod. :)

Post away everyone!

**SMZ** · 11-01-2005, 20:20

A few things I noticed:

1. The Band of the Red Hand has changed a good bit with grenade throwing sling-staff men, fast cranking crossbows, flares and more...

2. We got our first up close look at Ogier weapons, in both the Westland variety and the Gardeners.

3. We know to mess with the numbers on effectiveness of projectiles a good bit, it's been remarked in RTW that archers can use every arrow and hardly impact a unit; in WoT however units have repeatedly been shown to get slaughtered to the man by the clever use of projectiles

4. We now know about possible emerging factions like Manetheren and The Golden Crane. We knew people were talking about Perrin raising Manetheren for a while, but now we see how widespread that talk and feeling had gotten. And we can be sure that The Golden Crane is flying by the end of this book.

One note... we should keep things we noticed to things that happened in this book. This mod will be done long before the next book or Guide comes out... so speculation on Mat's "dragons" for instace is no good. We can't include cannon yet... because they don't exist... Aludra may die for all we know...

Oh, that reminds me: We saw a train too! :)

**Steppe Merc** · 11-01-2005, 20:47

I loved it, because it gives a lot more possibelties for horse archer units. Between the Domani, the Tarbon guys fighting for the Seachaen, the Band of the Red Hand, not to mention the Saladaens and the rest of the Borderlands, I think at least one lancer with a bow unit is needed.

And I'd love to see a a Golden Crane faction, or at least a rebel unit or mercanary unit or something (given the large amount of Malkieri figthing for Borderlanders).

One thing I was confused about. Did Perrin end up being a vassal to the Seachean? He offered it, I know, but when they parted ways the general didn't really make any mention of it.

All in all, deffiently the best in the series for a long time.

**SMZ** · 11-02-2005, 03:26

yeah... that was a bit confusing... because he didn't really submit to the Seanchan... his offer wasn't lordship of the Two Rivers, but more along the lines of refraining from raising Manetheren's banner in opposition to the Seanchan...

so if the Seanchan never make it that far... as seems likely given Elayne being in Andor with popular support in Cairhein and baby momma to the Dragon freakin Reborn... then I think his offer is considered null and void...

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another cool thing I noticed - we got our first look at a Sharan :)

**Barid** · 11-02-2005, 06:34

Originally Posted by SMZ

yeah... that was a bit confusing... because he didn't really submit to the Seanchan... his offer wasn't lordship of the Two Rivers, but more along the lines of refraining from raising Manetheren's banner in opposition to the Seanchan...

so if the Seanchan never make it that far... as seems likely given Elayne being in Andor with popular support in Cairhein and baby momma to the Dragon freakin Reborn... then I think his offer is considered null and void...

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another cool thing I noticed - we got our first look at a Sharan :)

Ok... A Sharan? Did I miss something? Noal? Hell my asstuteness is questionable sometimes... hell I still think it was Semirhage who killed Asmodean.... well, that was my first thought anyway.

A Manethran faction would be cool though.

**SMZ** · 11-02-2005, 09:00

yep, yep - we only see the Sharan for a brief moment however...

When Rand goes to the inn in Tear... as he is entering he hears a fellow with dark skin and tight, curly hair using an "odd musical accent" while talking about obtaining andberry leaves for silk worms he has. The fellow is speaking haltingly... almost as if he was trying to use a language he isn't familiar with :) My money says it's a Sharan. Because a few seconds later, Alivia hears the familiar "drawling accent" of Seanchan and goes into shock. So a fellow using a strange accent and with dark skin has to be either Sea Folk, Seanchan, Sharan or from the Land of Madmen.

Madmen are presumbably madmen. Sea Folk have familiar accents by this time as do Seanchan. Sharans on the other hand do not, AND Shara is the source for silk, and thus silk worms. :)

**McFungos** · 11-02-2005, 09:27

For those who thought that without Mat, the Band would not continue his reforms, they were wrong.

The 4.000 fast reloading crossbows prove it.

I'm relauching the debate : Is the Band an Elite Unit ?

**SMZ** · 11-02-2005, 17:58

Well, I suppose you get the right to brag on yourself a bit...

Don't do too much, or I'll find a technicality to argue about it, just for principal - lol.

And it would appear, that the Band units will indeed be elite level units. We've got grenade throwing sling-staffs, fast-cranking crossbows and horse archers/lancers... Too bad we didn't get a chance to see the rest of the foot... the pikemen may have undergone changes too... Anything else you guys noticed about the Band?

**Steppe Merc** · 11-02-2005, 20:36

I wanted to know how that King guy betrayed them, or whatever.

Oh, I did notice them talking about their core of builders (or something). Mabye they can build watchtowers/forts easier or cheaper (if possible)? Obviously this would have to be for the entire Dragon faciton, but...

**Andreas** · 11-02-2005, 20:51

Masons you mean...we cannot do that, as far as I know...

And the crossbowmen ae still not elire really, they have a techincal lead, and are in good order, better then msot common units, but they will not be better then for example aiel, or generals unit. Somewhere in the middle there....

**McFungos** · 11-02-2005, 21:15

My estimation

A soldier of the Band = 1.2 to 1.3 common soldier

For comparaison :

A Death Guard = 5 to 6 commons soldiers

The bands units deserve the Hardy trait and big moral boost.

Hardy because the Band can make multiples raids and ambushes during a same night.

Big moral because the Band is often outnumbered in tactical and surendered in strategic

They aren't the Aiel sure but they are above any standard unit and by a fair margin.

**SMZ** · 11-03-2005, 06:10

The masons and such the Band has along would mostly be a part of their movement bonus. Which that just comes as a trait with Mat or Talmanes or whoever. We'll prolly give em the trait "Engineers Corps" or something and give a siege building bonus and movement bonus from them building bridges and whatnot...

As far as to how the King betrayed them... I would guess that after putting them to use in getting the country under his control he probably wanted a nice resounding victory to put on his record and secure his status as a popular hero. So he prolly asked the Band to do something with the intent of annihilating them, thus making himself popular and erasing all evidence of the ploy he had used on the nobles... Just guesswork, but that's how I would see it...

I agree with Andreas and McFungos... The Band is to normal soldiers as Aiel are to The Band... Given their technology advantage however they'll likely be some of the most valued troops. We're going to have to make their costs high to balance it. The grenades and fast-cranking put them on the path toward Aes Sedai like power... can't have a player with an entire army of Band soldiers...

**McFungos** · 11-03-2005, 09:27

The king Rheodran made a secret dealing with the Band and Talmanes.

Rheodran paid the Band to stay in Murandy to pose as a potential threat while Rheodran gather support against the Band.

The Band leaved Murandy just before king Rheodran was ready to strike them.

It's similar to the deal between Elayne et the Borderlanders army in Andor save the money part.

**SMZ** · 11-03-2005, 10:07

yeah - but Rheodran didn't keep his side of the bargain completely... as Talmanes says when he meets Mat. That's why the Band is scattered a bit, because they had to quick march their way out of Murandy to avoid getting backstabbed

**Steppe Merc** · 11-04-2005, 23:58

Oh, and you guys need to have a Zebra mount. Mabye for just the general, or something, but you need at least one Zebra!

**SMZ** · 11-05-2005, 00:30

lol - razors can't be zebras... I don't care what anybody says

**Steppe Merc** · 11-05-2005, 00:48

Originally Posted by SMZ

lol - razors can't be zebras... I don't care what anybody says

What? Why not? The description is exactly matching a zebra. You don't get horses with straight white and black stripes. You can get paliminos, but not like that.

Besides, there are elephants, lions, why not zebras?

**SMZ** · 11-05-2005, 05:21

well - one: zebras are the size of donkeys and this horse was described as being "17 hands" I think... two: zebras for all intents and purposes cannot be domesticated - they just aren't trainable...

iunno... might be some kind of zebra-horse hybrid creature... which would explain their rarity... since the offspring would be sterile

**Steppe Merc** · 11-05-2005, 16:14

Hmm, your right, zebras are only 11-13 hands high, I read...
Though perhaps in the Wheel of Time world, they evolved to be bigger?

Seriously, I really can't imagine having a horse with that sort of patterns, nor the Domani being so protective of it if it was a normal horse...

Regardless, I would really want to see a Domani general on a razor.

**Andreas** · 11-06-2005, 10:07

They will have it...

And it's not a zebra, those have vertical lines IIRC, where the razor has horzontal, and the razors line are stright where the zebras are all wavy. They are just very good horse with a cool look.

**Steppe Merc** · 11-06-2005, 21:27

It was horizontal lines? Oh, ok, then they aren't zebras. But they are cool, and I'm glad they will be in.

**SMZ** · 11-10-2005, 17:41

I'm not sure if they're horizontal or verticle... the picture I got in my mind was horizontal at first tho... I don't think Jordan specifically said - unless it's in a interview or book signing quote somewhere?

how I pictured it was:

b=black, w=white

bbbbbbbbbbwwwwwww
wwwwwwbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbbbbwwwwwwwww
wwwwbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bbbbwwwwwwwwwww
wwbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
bwwwwwwwwwwwww

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It was interesting to learn that the female Choedan Khal melted - previously I'd been assuming that Rand would go looking for another access key (I thought only the key had melted) but with the sa'angreal gone as well... that shrinks Rand's options considerably... maybe Egwene will provide the white rod from the Tower? still, that's a poor substitute...

**Steppe Merc** · 11-10-2005, 18:38

Yeah, with those Sea Folk land people (can't rember there name) all commiting suicide. Did the male version melt as well? I can't remember...
And I was glad there wasn't much emphasis on the Aes Sedai this one, they are so boring to me.

I wonder how Logain will end up serving Rand, or if he betrays him (how does he get his glory?). And what was with Rand's headaches? Could it mean the taint is back? But then, the Aes Sedai who bonded the Ashaman still seem to think its clean.

**SMZ** · 11-10-2005, 19:16

The male version is fine as far as we know... it's just when you're talking about taking on the The Dark One, Sightblinder, etc, etc, The Great Lord of the Dark himself... using both Choedan Khal while linked would've been a big help from any angle we can think of right now... the next most powerful female sa'angreal we know of is that rod in the tower. But like seven Aes Sedai linked while using that had a hard time just fixing Mat's dagger attachment! I can't imagine how much good it'll do against the Dark One.

I think Logain might end up being the next Tamyrlin... or whatever equivalent exists after the Last Battle. I have a feeling Rand is going to get burned out at Tarmon Gaidan.

I think Rand's headaches are another side effect of the balefire streams crossing with Moridin. The two are becoming one somehow... I think Rand is attuned to the True Power somehow now - just he can't access it because the Dark One doesn't grant it. Moridin feels quesy whenever Rand uses the One Power - I think there's an allergic reaction so to speak to using the One Power after prolonged True Power usage. And I think Rand is picking up those effects thru his bond with Moridin.

**Andreas** · 11-10-2005, 22:48

You think that about the TP? And who made you think that???:P

And the male should be fine, the ter'angreal is, and I think they reflect each other...

And rand's sickness has nothing with the taint to do... (From Jordan).

And it says horizontal, with the lines straight as if cut with razors.

(It's ayamar:P)

Edit: A nice sumup of the ituralde attack, if you are interested: http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessagebo...ssageID=268069

**SMZ** · 11-11-2005, 00:24

lol - did I get that from you? I know we talked about it... I can't remember what thoughts are my own and things I picked up elsewhere anymore...

heh - word - credit Andreas with the Rand-Moridin relationship

and that's a nice link there :)

**SMZ** · 11-11-2005, 23:59

Actually, come to think of it... "stripes" is an uncommon way to refer to horizontal lines. Anytime somebody says "stripes" I think it's common to think of verticle lines... and most animals that have "stripes" have verticle lines. ie: tiger stripes, zebra stripes, antelope stripes...

A horizontal series of lines would probably be called "bands".

I'm really uncertain of how that horse looks in Jordan's mind - what did you base your interpretation off of Andreas? I prolly missed something...

I'm kinda liking my idea that the razor is a zebra/horse hybrid though. :)

EDIT: Now that I just said it again - look at this: zebra/horse... "ra-hor" ... hmm... we've all seen Jordan's penchant for reinventing words from the real world... Armageddon = Tarmon Gaidan, etc, etc

I hereby submit that the "razor" is a zebra/horse hybrid and Jordan got the name by combining the two. Then he thought up the clever little "lines like they're sliced by a razor" bit as a better way of explaining the name than his actual method.

**Steppe Merc** · 11-12-2005, 00:24

Possibly. However, if you type in "zorse" into google, you'll see that sometimes the horse is brown (following the horse). I suppose it depends if the zebra or horse is the mother, and the color of the horse.

But the zorse is more likely than a special horse, in my mind.

**CrownOfSwords** · 11-12-2005, 10:32

Yeah there are a lot of great developments in KOD, I finally feel like the books are getting along again. As for the band being an elite unit I dont think so, I think they should have a huge morale boost for they always believe they will win no matter the odds with Mat at the command, they should be able to hide anywhere which will be great for setting up crossbowman ambushes like Mat does, this is due to their new green armor. The thing thats bugging me is how could we implement the true power of crossbows into RTW, the games only missile really is bows and crossbows are much much more powerful than bows able to punch through armor and the sort, I think to show their damage you would almost want to overwrite javelinmen possibly, this is something to discuss and for someone to test.

As far as we know now Mat may have sealed the Seachan to Rand, he's the prince of ravens or maybe even now like a king of the Seachan or something we are not really told how that works. Im excited to read about the great stump and loial convincing the ogier to go to the last battle im sure that will be a good passage, we also all now want to know about Lan im curious how many men are going to be following him by the end. Rand finally is making decisions and seems to be preparing for the last battle (by sending Tear's troops to the borderlands)

Another question thats been stirring in my mind - we are told humanities only chance is if Rand is at the last battle right? and even if they still may lose. Well with full strength (including Seachan) how many men can be mustered to the borderlands id guess a few million? so if that can be beaten how many friggen trollocs are there and the dreadlords have yet to show themselves we saw what some what 40 asha'man and aes sedai did to thousands and thousands of trollocs..

**Tauron** · 11-12-2005, 22:32

Originally Posted by CrownOfSwords

and the dreadlords have yet to show themselves

Think about what Taim said in the end of the book: Let the lord of chaos rule. (or something like that...)
That same thing was used in some former book by some of the Forsaken... Wouldn't that mean those Taim's men are darkfriends or Taim himself at least?

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