Takeda dumpster.

[Kagemusha]

So basicly this thread is a dumpster for all Clan Takeda related information.Feel free to post text,links,Images,anything you guys stumble accros.We have never too much information.

[Drisos]

"Solid as a mountain, aggressive as fire, strong as a tree, fast as the wind. As well in heaven as on earth I am the only one who deserves respect." - Text on the Sashimono of Takeda Shingen.

[antisocialmunky]

I'll update this as it goes:

No Effect VnV Trait List:

Takeda Shingen
"Solid as a mountain, aggressive as fire, strong as a tree, fast as the wind. As well in heaven as on earth I am the only one who deserves respect." - Text on the Sashimono of Takeda Shingen.

[Drisos]

I couldn't figure out the word ealier so I used the word text... perhaps 'text' should be replaced by 'slogan'... but I'm not sure if that's the right way to say it... I think you guys know english better

[Kraxis]

I'll update this as it goes:

No Effect VnV Trait List:

Takeda Shingen
"Solid as a mountain, aggressive as fire, strong as a tree, fast as the wind. As well in heaven as on earth I am the only one who deserves respect." - Text on the Sashimono of Takeda Shingen.

Whouldn't that be better as an ancilliary?

Sashimono (and some image to that effect)
*text*

[KSEG]

Is there going to be any slinger unit fore Takeda?
Takeda was famous, perhaps even more then their cavalry, for their slingers.

[Kraxis]

Slingers... Never heard of them. I take it that they were ashis or miners or something.

[KSEG]

Slingers... Never heard of them. I take it that they were ashis or miners or something.

One of Takeda's ally and general, Oyamada Nobushige, had always commanded an unit of slingers into battle.
They were trained Ashigarus using a staff sling.
They usually bombard the enemy line with stones to disorder the enemy line, and IIRC they were quite famous among the enemys of Takeda, even more then their cavalry.
I think they were called 印字打ち Inji-Uchi.

[antisocialmunky]

Whouldn't that be better as an ancilliary?

Sashimono (and some image to that effect)
*text*

Well, we'll decide what to do with them later. Right now, I'm just going to compile a list of the ones mentioned in this thread.

The slinger unit sounds like a Cao Cao project.

[Turin]

"Solid as a mountain, aggressive as fire, strong as a tree, fast as the wind. As well in heaven as on earth I am the only one who deserves respect." - Text on the Sashimono of Takeda Shingen.

Sorry, but that is definitely NOT what it says LOL

The flag quotes directly from Sun Tzu's Art of War in Chinese. It says:

"Swift as the Wind, Dense as the Forest, Destructive as Fire, Unmoving as a Mountain"

That, ladies and gentlemen, is my own direct translation cause I happen to know both Chinese and Japanese quite well.

[antisocialmunky]

I've heard the latter more than the former, but the former just sounds more ambitious.

[Kagemusha]

I think Turin is right.

[Drisos]

I just found it somewhere.. so if you're sure about your translation, Turin, it should be used.

[Helgi]

Sorry, but that is definitely NOT what it says LOL

The flag quotes directly from Sun Tzu's Art of War in Chinese. It says:

"Swift as the Wind, Dense as the Forest, Destructive as Fire, Unmoving as a Mountain"

That, ladies and gentlemen, is my own direct translation cause I happen to know both Chinese and Japanese quite well.

"Swift as the Wind, Dense as the Forest, Destructive as Fire, Unmoving as a Mountain" sounds like how it was phased in both Kurasawa's "Kagemusha" and in a japanese tv serial that they used to play on the asian channel in NY around 1993-5, they did one on M. Date as well. But in "Kagemusha" Shingen or his brother describe it as the the wind as his Cavalry, the forest as his spearmen, I forget what the fire was and the Mountain was the Daiymo, I may be wrong, it's been six month since I've seen Kurasawa's "Kagemusha".

[antisocialmunky]

Well, that's true as well.

Swift as the Wind, Dense as the Forest, Destructive as Fire, Unmoving as a Mountain

The direct quote from Sun Tzu relates to one's approach as to battle or cival matters.

Swift as the Wind, Dense as the Forest, Destructive as Fire, Unmoving as a Mountain

The second quote from Kagemusha is the equating of parts of the army to each part of Sun Tzu's quote.

However, I'm interested in this line:

"As well in heaven as on earth I am the only one who deserves respect."

It just sounds good for a Daiymo.

[Kraxis]

Well obviously the fire would be archers...

[KSEG]

Wasn't it "Silent as a forest" not dense?

[antisocialmunky]

I've heard it translated as 'silent as a bush.'

[Helgi]

Well obviously the fire would be archers...

There you go, I forgot what fire stood for, I knew it meant something, Kraxis thanks for reminding me

[Kagemusha]

Infact the the Forest was the foot troops, fire was the Takeda´s heavy cavalry, Wind was the light cavalry and the Mountain was the Taisho,the commander.

[Helgi]

Kai province (甲斐国; -no kuni) is an old province in Japan that corresponds to Yamanashi prefecture today. It lies in central Honshu, west of Tokyo, in a landlocked mountainous region that includes Mount Fuji along its border with Shizuoka Prefecture. Another name for the province is Koshu (甲州).
During the Sengoku Period, the warlord Takeda Shingen ruled Kai from his stronghold at Kofu.
TAKEDA CLAN TIMELINE

1493 - 1582

1493 - Takeda Nobutora, father of Takeda Shingen, is born.

1519 - Takeda Nobutora establishes his headquarters in Fuchu.
1521 - Takeda Nobutora defeats Fukushima Ujikatsu, and Imagawa general, at the Battle of Iidagawara and soon afterwards learns of the birth of his first son - the future Takeda Shingen, who is given the childhood name 'Katsuchiyo'.
1524 - November 23 - Takeda Nobutora makes peace with Hôjô Ujitsuna.
1535 - Takeda Shingen has his coming of age ceremony, and is given the name 'Harunobu' - the 'Haru' coming from the Shôgun, Ashikaga Yoshiharu.
1541 - July - Takeda Harunobu (Shingen) seizes power in Kai from his father, Nobutora. Nobutora is taken in by Imagawa Yoshimoto.
1542 - April - Takeda Harunobu (Shingen) defeats an allied army of Shinano warlords at Sezawa in Shinano and begins a campaign into southern Shinano.
1544 - November - Takeda Harunobu (Shingen) defeats Fujisawa Yorichika at Ina-Matsushima in Shinano Province.
1545 - April 20 - Takeda Harunobu (Shingen) seiges Fujizawa Yorichika's main castle, Fukuyo, in Ina district. May 20 - Fujizawa Yorichika's brother-in-law Ogasawara Nagatoki departs his castle to assist Yorichika.
June 6 - Fujizawa Yorichika sends his younger brother, Gonjiro, to Takeda Harunobu as a hostage, and surrenders. His castle is burned the same day.
June 13 - After Takeda Harunobu captures Ina district, he advances his army to Shiojiri, Tsukama district.
August 16 - Imagawa Yoshimoto and Hôjô Ujiyasu battle at Kitsunebashi in Suruga province. Yoshimoto wins the battle with help from Harunobu (Shingen).
September 16 - Imagawa Yoshimoto defeats Hôjô Ujiyasu at Yoshiwara in Suruga province with the assistance of Harunobu.
October 22 - Takeda Harunobu (Shingen) mediates peace between Imagawa Yoshimoto and Hôjô Ujiyasu, which results in Ujiyasu withdrawing his troops from Suruga the next month.

1546 - March - Takeda Harunobu (Shingen) attacks Murakami Yoshikiyo's Toishi castle in Shinano, but is defeated at Uenohara. May 9 - Harunobu attacks Ôi Sadakiyo's Uchiyama castle in Shinano. It falls on May 20th.

1548 - September - Takeda Harunobu (Shingen) suffers a defeat at the hands of Murakami Yoshikiyo in the first Japanese battle in which guns are employed (in this case, by the Murakami and of Chinese manufacture).
1553 - September - Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin confront each other for the first time in the 1st Battle of in Shinano province - also known as the Battle of Fuse.
1555 - July 19 - Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin fight the second battle of Kawanakajima, also known as the Battle of the Saigawa.
1559 - Takeda Shingen's conquest of Shinano is largely completed.
1561 - October - Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin fight the inconclusive 4th Battle of Kawanakajima, the greatest of their contests. 1563 - Uesugi Norikatsu is defeated by Takeda Shingen and Hôjô Ujiyasu at Musashi-Matsuyama in Musashi province.
1564 - September - Uesugi Kenshin and Takeda Shingen fight the 5th and final Battle of Kawanakajima.
1565 - Takeda Yoshinobu conspires against his father Shingen in Kai but is discovered and later made to commit suicide.
1568 - The Takeda and Imagawa clans begin fighting.
1569 - June 23 - Takeda Shingen promotes Anayama Nobukimi to the rank of general. October 2 - Takeda Shingen repells an attack by the Hôjô, and returns to Kôfu.
November - Takeda Shingen surrounds Odawara Castle in Sagami; a week later Shingen retreats and in the process defeats a Hôjô army at the Battle of Mimasetoge.

1570 - January - Takeda Shingen leads an army into Suruga Province. February - Takeda Shingen takes Hanzawa Castle from Ôhara Sukeyoshi.
June - Takeda Shingen clashes with Hôjô and Imagawa troops in Suruga Province.

1571 - Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin face each other for the last time at the Tone River in Kozuke.
1572 - January - Takeda Shingen and the Hôjô make peace; the latter breaks off relations with the Uesugi. November - Takeda Shingen leads his army into the Tokugawa domain.
December - Akiyama Nobutomo, a Takeda retainer, captures Iwamura Castle in Mino from the Oda.

1573 - January 6 - Takeda Shingen defeats Tokugawa Ieyasu at the Battle of Mikatagahara. May 13 - Takeda Shingen dies and is succeded by Katsuyori.
Takeda Nobutora dies.

1574 - March - Takeda Katsuyori captures Taketenjin Castle in Tôtômi from Tokugawa Ieyasu.
1575 - June 28 - Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu defeat Takeda Katsuyori at the Battle of Nagashino. 10,000 Takeda warriors are slain.
1579 - October - The Takeda and Hôjô confront one another near Numzu Castle in Suruga Province
1580 - April - The Takeda and Hôjô fight the land/sea Battle of Omosu.
1581 - Tokugawa Ieyasu recaptures Taketenjin Castle in Tôtômi from Takeda Katsuyori. 1582 - May - Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu invade Kai and Shinano - Takeda Katsuyori commits suicide.
http://www.samurai-archives.com/takedatime.html

[Helgi]

The mountains of Takeda's Kofu, today

Monument of Takeda Shingen in Yamanashi today

Takeda Katsuyori, a.k.a Suwa Katsuyori, a.k.a Oda Nobunaga's Son In-Law, started this battle of June 28, 1575 by invading Tokugawa Ieyasu's territory and seized the small castle named Nagashino. Unlike the Takatenjin castle that Takeda had taken before, that he, out of sudden inspiration, had reduced to ashes, Nagashino was taken the normal way, i.e. unemotionally occupied.
The castle might have looked like nothing important, but wars are like Cecil B. DeMille's movies -- what matters is location.
Tokugawa couldn't afford to lose Nagashino. It was the clan's outmost defensive screen. But he got a big problem involving mathematics. Even by relaxing his standard for conscription, even via general mobilization, the Tokugawas could only assemble 8,000 warriors to defend their province. Tokugawa Ieyasu had been beaten by Takeda's legendary father before, so he got extra cautious in this one although the Takeda who had beaten him -- Shingen, the warlord who helped shaping what you know today as 'the way of the samurai' or 'bushido' (click here for 'bushido') -- had been dead for three years.
Tokugawa sent an S.O.S message to Oda Nobunaga, his ally. Oda's clansmen and Generals didn't think it's worth their lives; their nearly unanimous proposal was that Tokugawa retreated somewhere else, and let Takeda Katsuyori got the castle for the time being.
Only Oda Nobunaga didn't see it their way.
To him, Nagashino was just as important as it was to Tokugawa Ieyasu. They were allies; Tokugawa was Oda's wall of defense. If the wall got blasted through, it would leave his own clan militarily naked. And even though this was springtime, he wouldn't risk it by such a laid-back alliance that his men took it to be.
So Oda Nobunaga marched to Nagashino, taking his best Generals with him: Shibata Katsuie, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Oda Nobutada (who happened to be his heir). Famous Oda Captains came along, too: Sakuma Nobumori and Okubo Tadayo -- the latter was a firearm expert. Stunning the Tokugawa clan, the number of Oda soldiers that tagged along reached 30,000 -- while the Tokugawas only expected an offhand help as Oda extended before; say, 3,000 men or so.
This was all visually observable by Takeda Katsuyori from his seat at the castle. The senior Generals of the Takeda clan, relix of Takeda Shingen's days, all pointed at the endless line of Oda warriors and asked Katsuyori to review his plan again. They advised him to retreat and avoid losing lives in vain; they could fight the Tokugawas alone next time.
Takeda Katsuyori refused to listen. He ordered his proud cavalry to attack instead.
This was an infernal battlefield. Legends of the province of Kai died for nothing at all: Baba Nobufusa, Yamagata Masakage, Naito Kiyonaga, Hara Masatane, Sanada Nobutsuna, Sanda Masateru, Kasai Mitsuhide, Wada Narishige, Yonekura Shigetsugu, Atobe Shigemasa, and so forth. 10,000 was the total number of Takeda's lives that were lost in one single day at Nagashino. The Takeda clan lost just as many horses, too, because of Oda Nobunaga's cyclical firing (click here). The mighty clan that Takeda Shingen had built painstakingly were from this day on swiftly slipping into oblivion.

[Helgi]

The picture below is all Takeda Generals (the famous '24 Takeda Generals') when Takeda Shingen was still around, documented by a painter in 17th century.
'''Takeda Nobutora''' (&27494;&30000;&20449;&34382;)(1493-1573) was a Japanese feudal lord (''daimyo) who controlled the Province of Kai, and fought in a number of battles of the Sengoku period. He was the father of the famous Takeda Shingen, who was originally named Harunobu, along with two other sons, Nobushige and Nobukado. Nobutora fought Hiraga Genshin at the Battle of Un no Kuchi in 1536. He was forced to retreat, but his son Harunobu defeated Hiraga and took the castle. Nobutora nevertheless wished to pass on his domain to Nobushige, and so Harunobu overthrew his father and exiled him.
24 Retainers who served under Shingen
Takeda Nobushige
Takeda Nobukado
Ichijo Nobutatsu
Itagaki Nobukata
Amari Torayasu
Yokota Takatoshi
Obu Toramasa
Hara Toratane
Obata Toramori
Obata Masamori
Yamamoto Haruyuki
Tada Mitsuyori
Yamagata Masakage
Baba Nobuharu
Naito Masatoyo
Kosaka Masanobu
Sanada Yukitaka
Sanada Nobutsuna
Anayama Nobukimi
Oyamada Nobushige
Akiyama Nobutomo
Hara Masatane
Saegusa Moritomo
Tsuchiya Masatsugu
Sanada Yukimura
http://www.samurai-archives.com/ftk.html

[Helgi]

A dramatization of Shingen's life was made into a television series by NHK. Akira Kurosawa's 1980 movie Kagemusha was also inspired by his life. Takeda Shingen is the player's persona in the NES game Shingen the Ruler. Shingen's conquest is also portrayed in the PC game, Takeda. Shingen appears as a character in the Samurai Warriors game series for the PlayStation 2. Takeda Shingen also appears, although briefly, in Kessen 3. His depiction is as somewhat overconfident, but as a great warrior and strategist, well respected by his officers and foes alike. He is one of the few enemies one faces in the game who is not shown as a tyrant or a fool. His son, however, is shown as a stubborn and hotheaded warrior who tramples over his father's dying advice, and pays dearly for it. Category:1521 birthsCategory:1573 deathsCategory:Japanese samurai leaders

[Helgi]

'''Kagemusha''' (&24433;&27494;&32773;) is a film by Akira Kurosawa. The word is Japanese and means imposter (more literally, shadow warrior). The story is of a man who is taught to pretend being an already dead warlord (based on warlord Takeda Shingen) for the sake of keeping his clan united in the upcoming battle. The films takes elements from the Warring States period in Japanese history. The warlord in the story is based on Daimyo Takeda Shingen and the battle is based on the Battle of Nagashino of 1573. (source: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080979/trivia) The film was released in 1980 and is generally considered a great costume reincarnation of feudal Japan with its endless warlordism as well as a story of a man with split personality. Or generally an actor who falls too deep into his role. Speaking of actors, Kurosawa originally cast the boisterous Shintaro Katsu in the title role. He left the production before the first day of shooting was over – either fired or of his own accord (stories differ) – and was replaced with Tatsuya Nakadai, who had appeared in a number of the director's previous films. A little known fact is that George Lucas and Francis Ford Coppola are credited to be Executive producers (for the international version) as they are credited in the film.

[Kagemusha]

Great material Helgi!

[Helgi]

Great material Helgi!

At work, I specialize in finding information, mostly scientific journals, and thanks

[Helgi]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Battles of Kawanakajima

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A painting of a battle at KawanakajimaConflict: Sengoku periodDate: September 10, 1561Place: Kawanakajima, Shinano ProvinceOutcome: Takeda Shingen victoryCombatantsforces of Takeda Shingenforces of Uesugi KenshinCommandersTakeda Shingen, Yamamoto Kansuke, Kosaka Danjo Masanobu, othersUesugi Kenshin, Kakizaki Kageie, othersStrength20,00018,000Casualties12,40012,960Campaigns of the TakedaUn no Kuchi - Sezawa - Uehara - Kuwabara - Fukuyo - Nagakubo - Kojinyama - Takatō 1545 - Ryūgasaki - Uchiyama - Odaihara - Shika - Uedahara - Shiojiritoge - Fukashi - Toishi - Katsurao - Kiso Fukushima - Kannomine - Matsuo - Kawanakajima - Musashi-Matsuyama - Kuragano - Minowa - Odawara - Mimasetoge - Kanbara - Hanazawa - Fukazawa - Iwamura - Futamata - Mikata ga Hara - Noda - Yoshida - Nagashino - Omosu - Takatenjin - Temmokuzan - Takatō 1582The battles of Kawanakajima (川中島の戦い, Kawanakajima no tatakai?) were fought in the Sengoku Period of Japan between Takeda Shingen of Kai province and Uesugi Kenshin of Echigo province in the plain of Kawanakajima, in the north of Shinano Province, very near the modern-day city of Nagano.
The five major battles took place in 1553, 1555, 1557, 1561 and 1564. The best known and severest among them was fought on September 10, 1561.
The battles started after Shingen conquered Shinano province, expelling Murakami Yoshiharu and Ogasawara Nagatoki who subsequently turned to Kenshin for help.

• In the First Battle of Kawanakajima, in June of 1553, Takeda Shingen penetrated far into the Kawanakajima plain, his vangard encountering the forces of Uesugi Kenshin at a shrine to Hachiman. They disengaged, and met up again a few kilometers away, but no decisive battle was fought.

• In 1555, the second battle of Kawanakajima, also known as the Battle of Saigawa, began when Takeda Shingen returned to Kawanakajima, advancing up to the Sai River. He made camp on a hill to the south of the river, while Uesugi Kenshin was camped just east of the Zenkoji temple, which provided him an excellent view of the plain. However, the Kurita family, allies of Takeda, held a fortress called Asahiyama a few kilometers to the west; they menaced Uesugi's right flank. Kurita Kakuju's defenses were bolstered by 3000 of Takeda's warriors.

Uesugi launched a number of attacks against the Asahiyama fortress, but all were repulsed. Eventually he moved his army onto the plain, redirecting his attention on Takeda's main force. However, rather than attacking, both armies waited, for months, for the other to make a move. Finally, battle was avoided as both leaders retired to deal with domestic affairs in their home provinces.

• The third battle took place in 1557 when Takeda Shingen captured a fortress called Katsurayama, overlooking the Zenkoji temple from the north-west. He then attempted to take Iiyama castle, but withdrew after Uesugi Kenshin led an army out of Zenkoji.

• The fourth battle resulted in greater casualties for both sides, as a percentage of total forces, than any other battle in the Sengoku Period, and is one of the most tactically interesting battles of the period as well. In September of 1561, Uesugi Kenshin left his Kasugayama fortress with 18,000 warriors, determined to destroy Takeda Shingen. He left some of his forces at Zenkoji, but took up a position on Saijoyama, a mountain to the west of, and looking down upon, Shingen's Kaizu castle. Unbeknownst to Kenshin, the Kaizu castle contained no more than 150 samurai, and their followers, and he had taken them completely by surprise. However, the general in command of the castle, Kosaka Danjo Masanobu, through a system of signal fires, informed his lord, in Tsutsujigasaki fortress, 130 km away in Kōfu, of Kenshin's move.

Shingen left Kōfu with 16,000 men, acquiring 4000 more as he traveled through Shinano Province, approaching Kawanakajima on the west bank of the Chikumagawa (Chikuma River), keeping the river between him and Saijoyama. Neither army made a move, knowing that victory would require the element of surprise, to throw the enemy off-balance; Shingen was allowed into his fortress at Kaizu. Along with his gun-bugyō (army commissioner), Yamamoto Kansuke, a strategy was conceived.
Kosaka Danjo Masanobu left Kaizu with 8000 men, advancing up Saijoyama under cover of night, intending to drive Kenshin's army down to the plain where Takeda Shingen would be waiting with another 8000 men in kakuyoku, or "crane's wing", formation. However, whether via spies in Kaizu or scouts looking down from Saijoyama, Kenshin guessed Shingen's intentions, and led his own men down to the plain; as dawn broke, Shingen's men found Kenshin's army ready to charge at them, not fleeing from the mountain.
Uesugi's forces attacked in waves, every unit being replaced by another as it became weary or destroyed. While the kakuyoku formation held surprisingly strongly, the Takeda commanders eventually fell, one by one. Seeing that his plan had failed, Yamamoto Kansuke charged alone into the mass of Uesugi samurai, suffering upwards of 80 bullet wounds before retiring to a nearby hill and committing harakiri.
Eventually, the Uesugi forces reached the Takeda command post, and one of the most famous single combats in Japanese history ensued. Uesugi Kenshin himself burst into the headquarters, attacking Takeda Shingen who, unprepared for such an event, parried with his signalling fan as best as he could, and held Kenshin off long enough for one of his retainers to spear Kenshin's mount and drive him off.
Meanwhile, Kosaka's stealth force reached the top of Saijoyama and, finding the Uesugi position deserted, hurried down the mountain to the ford, taking the same path they had expected the fleeing Uesugi to take. After desperate fighting, they punched their way through the 3000 Uesugi warriors defending the ford, and pressed on to aid Takeda's main force. They succeeded in a pincer attack, accomplishing essentially what Yamamoto Kansuke had intended all along, and claimed victory over Uesugi Kenshin's forces.
In the end, the victorious Takeda suffered 62% losses, while the defeated Uesugi army lost 72% of their numbers. The chronicles seem to indicate that the Takeda made no effort to stop Kenshin's men from retreating after the battle, burning the encampment at Saijoyama, returning to Zenkoji, and then to Echigo Province.

• In 1564, Shingen and Kenshin met for the fifth and final time on the plain of Kawanakajima. Their forces skirmished for 60 days, and then both withdrew.

[antisocialmunky]

If you're going to rip articles form Wikipedia, oyu might as well link them so they get the ad money.

[Helgi]

@antisocialmunky> You are right, I do apologize, I didn't think