Riots in France?

**Papewaio** · 11-03-2005, 03:22

Be polite to each other and attack the arguement not the person.

**IrishMike** · 11-03-2005, 03:53

Probaly showing my ingorance here but i'll go ahead and ask in the spirit of getting the discussion back on the tracks.

Do these riots bear any likeness to the race riots and civil rights movement we had here in the United States? From what i've seen it looks to be the same, just with different groups and a tad bit different issues. Do they stem from legal inequality, social level differences, or just riots for no reason?

**Redleg** · 11-03-2005, 04:35

Originally Posted by ColdKnight

Probaly showing my ingorance here but i'll go ahead and ask in the spirit of getting the discussion back on the tracks.

Do these riots bear any likeness to the race riots and civil rights movement we had here in the United States? From what i've seen it looks to be the same, just with different groups and a tad bit different issues. Do they stem from legal inequality, social level differences, or just riots for no reason?

From what I can tell from el_slapper and Meneldil responses it seems to be more pronounced then the race riots that affected several of our cities and the civil rights movement, but less systemic then what happen in the United States.

It seems to be a major clash of cultures and the failure of the Nation of France as a whole to intergrate the new immigrants into the national culture of France. Edit: In simple terms I am getting the impression that France took the immigrants and then shoved them into the corner and tried to forget about them as people.

But that is just my take on it.

**Meneldil** · 11-03-2005, 09:59

Originally Posted by Redleg

It seems to be a major clash of cultures and the failure of the Nation of France as a whole to intergrate the new immigrants into the national culture of France. Edit: In simple terms I am getting the impression that France took the immigrants and then shoved them into the corner and tried to forget about them as people.

But that is just my take on it.

Basically, that's it. And we failed so badly that there's IMO nothing else to do than doing as if there weren't here or shooting them all.

Originally Posted by ColdKnight

Do they stem from legal inequality, social level differences, or just riots for no reason?

Well, there's obviously a lot of problems with the way my country handled the huge number of migrants, that caused the current situation. But the people rioting now are doing it just for the fun of it. They have absolutely no claim, no opinion. They just want to fight with cops, throw stones at firemen and burn cars.
Just so you understand the crap we have to deal with, that's also the way they have fun during christmas : they burn cars, wait for the firemen to come and then throw stones at them.

**Adrian II** · 11-03-2005, 10:16

Originally Posted by Meneldil

But the people rioting now are doing it just for the fun of it.

Just young people, right? The older immigrants don't play a role in all of this, except that they lament their cars being set on fire. And Sarkozy's remark that these youngsters are all 'scum' ('racaille') did not exactly help to restore order, it seems to have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Many youths in these quarters have been treated like scum for years, subjected to police harassment, public humiliation, etcetera. And they are not just without jobs, they are without the prospect of a job in the foreseeable future. But that is just a secundary complaint compared to the offense to their dignity of being called 'scum' on tv, and by a government minister, merely because they are of Arab origin.

**Meneldil** · 11-03-2005, 11:54

Originally Posted by AdrianII

Just young people, right? The older immigrants don't play a role in all of this, except that they lament their cars being set on fire. And Sarkozy's remark that these youngsters are all 'scum' ('racaille') did not exactly help to restore order, it seems to have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Many youths in these quarters have been treated like scum for years, subjected to police harassment, public humiliation, etcetera. And they are not just without jobs, they are without the prospect of a job in the foreseeable future. But that is just a secundary complaint compared to the offense to their dignity of being called 'scum' on tv, and by a government minister, merely because they are of Arab origin.

Err, well, someone whose main interest is to burn cars is indeed a scum.
I don't know where you got the idea that they were aims of 'police harassment, public humiliation etcetera'. Police usually do not bother to go to this cities, since they quickly turn as good targets for the local 'throw everything you can at them. Yes, that includes fridges or sofa' sport.

And the unemployment rate in Clichy for example is only of 14% (which is less than in Montpellier). Add to that the fact they get a whole lot of money thanks to robbering or illegal dealings or social helps, and have illegal jobs. Most of these poor youngs are in fact wealthier than the average french worker. The wear clothes more expensive than my whole wardrobe, drive cars I'll never get a chance to buy (although they're often not even 18 or don't have their license, and thus not allowed to drive, but heh, who cares anyway).

And the older people play a role, since they gave up with the education of their children.

**Adrian II** · 11-03-2005, 13:37

Originally Posted by Meneldil

Err, well, someone whose main interest is to burn cars is indeed a scum.

The two youngsters whose deaths triggered the riots did not burn cars or throw fridges. It has not been established that they were guilty of anything whatsoever at the time, but prime minister De Villepin called them 'burglars' anyway. I am relieved to see that Sarkozy and other desktop warriors have been rebuked yesterday by President Chirac and told to stop escalating the situation with their stupid little soundbites.

I don't know where you got the idea that they were aims of 'police harassment, public humiliation etcetera'. Police usually do not bother to go to this cities, since they quickly turn as good targets for the local 'throw everything you can at them.

Arabs in France have been the subject of harassment ever since they set foot on French soil, and of public humiliation ever since Le Pen and his National Front began to blame them for all of France's woes. You can deny French racism, police harassment and discrimination on the job market as much as you like, but it is not credible to anyone who has witnessed the treatment of Arabs by French police.

And in situations such as those in Clichy, there are always at least as many victims as there are perpetrators. Those cars that are burning are cars owned by mostly hard-working immigrants. Unemployment stands at 14% there, as opposed to the average of 9% for all of France. This means that 86% of the inhabitants go to work every day and literally do not have time for this crap.

As I said there are countless initiatives to improve the situation and bring about a change in the local subculture, but you refuse to address any of them until now, Meneldil. Rather, you paint all suburban immigrants as 'savages' who deserve to be shot. For those who are interested in alternative views the BBC has a decent article.

BBC

**Seamus Fermanagh** · 11-03-2005, 04:18

Originally Posted by Papewaio

Be polite to each other and attack the arguement not the person.

My response to Adrian was, I agree, crass. However, I did aim my commentary at a view/series of views he has expressed and not at Adrian personally. He is probably a decent bloke, kind to his neighbors, involved in his community and beloved by family, friends, and his pet. I still disagree vehemently with the line he often espouses on such issues.