Riots in France?

[Redleg]

Probaly showing my ingorance here but i'll go ahead and ask in the spirit of getting the discussion back on the tracks.

Do these riots bear any likeness to the race riots and civil rights movement we had here in the United States? From what i've seen it looks to be the same, just with different groups and a tad bit different issues. Do they stem from legal inequality, social level differences, or just riots for no reason?

From what I can tell from el_slapper and Meneldil responses it seems to be more pronounced then the race riots that affected several of our cities and the civil rights movement, but less systemic then what happen in the United States.

It seems to be a major clash of cultures and the failure of the Nation of France as a whole to intergrate the new immigrants into the national culture of France. Edit: In simple terms I am getting the impression that France took the immigrants and then shoved them into the corner and tried to forget about them as people.

But that is just my take on it.

[Adrian II]

Why does every other thread in the Backroom have to turn nasty recently?

Dear Simon, you are dead wrong. Some of us are having quite a bit of fun lately. For instance Devastating Dave and me. Many others take themselves too darn serious to appreciate a joke or laugh at themselves. Too bad.

Meanwhile, the only two who actually have a discussion going in this thread are Meneldil and me. Care to join, anyone? What do you think of his proposal to shoot each and every inhabitant of the French immigrant quarters?

[Adrian II]

France need to go through some humiliating changes to survive. Their earlier dominant position in Europe is no longer there and it's hard for the ordinary french citizen to accept that. Viva la France is not so elegant any longer.....

What has that got to do with the immigrant riots? And by the way, France's greatness as well as many of her tribulations have often been marked by tremendous riots - several revolutions come to mind...

[Meneldil]

It seems to be a major clash of cultures and the failure of the Nation of France as a whole to intergrate the new immigrants into the national culture of France. Edit: In simple terms I am getting the impression that France took the immigrants and then shoved them into the corner and tried to forget about them as people.

But that is just my take on it.

Basically, that's it. And we failed so badly that there's IMO nothing else to do than doing as if there weren't here or shooting them all.

Do they stem from legal inequality, social level differences, or just riots for no reason?

Well, there's obviously a lot of problems with the way my country handled the huge number of migrants, that caused the current situation. But the people rioting now are doing it just for the fun of it. They have absolutely no claim, no opinion. They just want to fight with cops, throw stones at firemen and burn cars.
Just so you understand the crap we have to deal with, that's also the way they have fun during christmas : they burn cars, wait for the firemen to come and then throw stones at them.

[Adrian II]

But the people rioting now are doing it just for the fun of it.

Just young people, right? The older immigrants don't play a role in all of this, except that they lament their cars being set on fire. And Sarkozy's remark that these youngsters are all 'scum' ('racaille') did not exactly help to restore order, it seems to have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Many youths in these quarters have been treated like scum for years, subjected to police harassment, public humiliation, etcetera. And they are not just without jobs, they are without the prospect of a job in the foreseeable future. But that is just a secundary complaint compared to the offense to their dignity of being called 'scum' on tv, and by a government minister, merely because they are of Arab origin.

[bmolsson]

What has that got to do with the immigrant riots? And by the way, France's greatness as well as many of her tribulations have often been marked by tremendous riots - several revolutions come to mind...

It has everything to do with the immigrant riots. The high unemployment among immigrants as well as the concentration of them to certain areas creates a tense situation where the "socialist ideals" currently rather strong in France can't live up to what it has promised. You can't be a socialist in one moment and then just ignore the people in the other.
France needs to get unions as well as red tape under control and promote the entrepreneural spirit often found among the immigrants. This would create commerce and lower un-employment.

[Fragony]

Geez Adrian, Paris is burning, they are scum. We have seen this kind of stuff In Antwerp, and now in Paris, and soon here as well. Now what do these cities have in common? These little terrorists just need a reason to go berzerk, and any reason will do.

[Meneldil]

Just young people, right? The older immigrants don't play a role in all of this, except that they lament their cars being set on fire. And Sarkozy's remark that these youngsters are all 'scum' ('racaille') did not exactly help to restore order, it seems to have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Many youths in these quarters have been treated like scum for years, subjected to police harassment, public humiliation, etcetera. And they are not just without jobs, they are without the prospect of a job in the foreseeable future. But that is just a secundary complaint compared to the offense to their dignity of being called 'scum' on tv, and by a government minister, merely because they are of Arab origin.

Err, well, someone whose main interest is to burn cars is indeed a scum.
I don't know where you got the idea that they were aims of 'police harassment, public humiliation etcetera'. Police usually do not bother to go to this cities, since they quickly turn as good targets for the local 'throw everything you can at them. Yes, that includes fridges or sofa' sport.

And the unemployment rate in Clichy for example is only of 14% (which is less than in Montpellier). Add to that the fact they get a whole lot of money thanks to robbering or illegal dealings or social helps, and have illegal jobs. Most of these poor youngs are in fact wealthier than the average french worker. The wear clothes more expensive than my whole wardrobe, drive cars I'll never get a chance to buy (although they're often not even 18 or don't have their license, and thus not allowed to drive, but heh, who cares anyway).

And the older people play a role, since they gave up with the education of their children.

[InsaneApache]

Geez Adrian, Paris is burning, they are scum. We have seen this kind of stuff In Antwerp, and now in Paris, and soon here as well. Now what do these cities have in common? These little terrorists just need a reason to go berzerk, and any reason will do.

Interesting. I was in Antwerpen in the last month and I have to say that in the city centre the only white faces I saw was the cops. Now I live in Bradford where we had our own 'ethnic' riots a few years back and I am well used to living in a multi-cultural environ. Having said that, I was shocked at the amount of 'immigrants' milling around....guys there were hundreds of them. I gained the impression that they were waiting for something. It was decidedly dodgy (intimidating) so I got into the car and buggered off. If I was an indiginous resident I would be feeling very trepidatious.
BTW what do all those red lights mean in the front rooms of the houses just out of town?

[Fragony]

I gained the impression that they were waiting for something.

Well they are if you ask me, but hey shaorma tastes good

And I have no idea what these things are! Why do they dress like that even in the winter??? Cold!

[el_slapper]

Thanks el_slapper

The story as reported just didn't make sense - It seems France will be suffering from several problems for many years to come - until from what you described it fixes its immigrantion policies, and a few social ills that have developed over the years because of that. Or am I misreading what you stated?

Well, the problem lies in the 60's immigration. So no change in our current policies will fix the problem whatsoever. Most rioters were born in France, and for some of them their parents were.

We WILL be suffering problems. Meneldil is right too when he describes the problem - just that he sees that from an external point of view. Which is very different from my point of view - I tend to know some people from the "suburbs". And our opposition is a good light of the problem. For the "suburb" inhabitants, the french state is a police state which opress minorities, a racist state who is especially an enemy of Islam. For inhabitants of elsewhere, "suburb" inhabitants are violent scum dreaming of reinstate the caliphate & financing it with drug deal and violent crime.

So we have a strong opposition here. And if I can easily give more details about why we reached that situation, I have no clue on how to solve it :( . What is sure, is that the conflict is not only in the streets. It's in the minds, & that's worse.

About our relative socialist country : people not born in France create twice more businesses than the ones born in France. That's good. What is not good is that those who do not do that, have very few opportunities to find real jobs. You see the lucky ones that achieve exiting the cities, & all the other ones, who are jealous & see them as traitors. I'm not sure whether it is a leftist or rightist morale, but here we are. There ARE opportunities, but not for everyone, by far. And the forgotten ones are angry - something easy to understand.

[econ21]

Dear Simon, you are dead wrong. Some of us are having quite a bit of fun lately. For instance Devastating Dave and me. Many others take themselves too darn serious to appreciate a joke or laugh at themselves. Too bad.

Yes, it may be fun for some people to throw anal references and scatalogical "humour" at each other (and non-participants). However, you did not seem too thrilled about it earlier in this thread. Moreover, it is not fun for some others who at least take the topics seriously, whatever their own self-regard.

As you observe, people have different levels of sensitivity to the form of communication but in the Backroom, it is not the lowest level that sets the minimum standards. The forum rules are that discussion be civil and courteous.

In a potentially explosive topic like this - dealing with race and real deaths - I think we have an extra responsibility not to be crass and to try to unpick the issues with care. And being crass will tend to derail others actually having a discussion. This post is just an illustration of that - I am arguing with you over form, when I want to be arguing with Menedil over substance.

[Adrian II]

Err, well, someone whose main interest is to burn cars is indeed a scum.

The two youngsters whose deaths triggered the riots did not burn cars or throw fridges. It has not been established that they were guilty of anything whatsoever at the time, but prime minister De Villepin called them 'burglars' anyway. I am relieved to see that Sarkozy and other desktop warriors have been rebuked yesterday by President Chirac and told to stop escalating the situation with their stupid little soundbites.

I don't know where you got the idea that they were aims of 'police harassment, public humiliation etcetera'. Police usually do not bother to go to this cities, since they quickly turn as good targets for the local 'throw everything you can at them.

Arabs in France have been the subject of harassment ever since they set foot on French soil, and of public humiliation ever since Le Pen and his National Front began to blame them for all of France's woes. You can deny French racism, police harassment and discrimination on the job market as much as you like, but it is not credible to anyone who has witnessed the treatment of Arabs by French police.

And in situations such as those in Clichy, there are always at least as many victims as there are perpetrators. Those cars that are burning are cars owned by mostly hard-working immigrants. Unemployment stands at 14% there, as opposed to the average of 9% for all of France. This means that 86% of the inhabitants go to work every day and literally do not have time for this crap.

As I said there are countless initiatives to improve the situation and bring about a change in the local subculture, but you refuse to address any of them until now, Meneldil. Rather, you paint all suburban immigrants as 'savages' who deserve to be shot. For those who are interested in alternative views the BBC has a decent article.

BBC

[Adrian II]

As you observe, people have different levels of sensitivity to the form of communication but in the Backroom, it is not the lowest level that sets the minimum standards.

Personally, I think that semantic peeing contests are lowest level of debate in this forum. Even anal humour is superior to 'debates' about who has the best and the biggest Webster's. Posts that contain nothing else but anal humour are a tad boring, though. Hence my remark above.

Now, when Meneldil writes that migrants in gettos are all savages who deserve to be shot, I am not content to sit back, nod politely and doze off into virtual limbo. What nonsense.

LOL. Just imagine some of us asking Kaiser what is going on with Mexican immigration in the United States.
'They are all criminals, shoot them!'
'Why thank you Kaiser for your informative post. It is great to have such international participation in this forum so we can all understand each other better.'

I mean, come on.

[Redleg]

I mean, come on.

Indeed -

[Adrian II]

Indeed -

Redleg, do you still love me?

[Fragony]

Arabs in France have been the subject of harassment ever since they set foot on French soil, and of public humiliation ever since Le Pen and his National Front began to blame them for all of France's woes. You can deny French racism, police harassment and discrimination on the job market as much as you like, but it is not credible to anyone who has witnessed the treatment of Arabs by French police.

Lol poor arabs. The problems we have with them in Holland is peanuts compared to France, ever been to Marseille? What an hellhole. This is a clearcut case of blaming the victim mia muca. It was a bit stupid to call them burglars when he should have known that the police doesn't even go in these area's anymore. So................why did they lie about being chased by the police? Well because it is effective as there are always people that see racism at every corner of the street. It are the same folks that keep telling minorities how badly they are discriminated and what complete bastards we whiteys really are.

[Redleg]

Redleg, do you still love me?

What is love - in the point that you do provide an interesting view on some things - well I like to read your opinions for the most part

Then I like to tweak you just like you like to tweak me on occasion - so I would call that love in a way. A sick and sadistic way - but love nevertheless I guess.

Hell the papercut I got from handling Card stock last night has effected my typing - going to have to go to the hospital and make sure I don't have blood posioning - was I being sarcastic or loving I really don't know...

BTW the papercut really exists and it hurts just a tad.

[yesdachi]

Sounds to me like France needs to go to war,conscript all the troublesome youths and let them get their aggravation out on a real target. A pressure cooker needs to vent, vent it in the right direction. Plus war is good for the economy and patriotism (as long as it is not a long drug out mess – or should I just say “Bush style”).

[Adrian II]

Hell the papercut I got from handling Card stock last night has effected my typing

Are you sure it wasn't your Webster's?


You'll be alright. But take care anyway.

[Redleg]

Are you sure it wasn't your Webster's?

Yep it was nasty - and sharp tagboard the kind you find on the back of your checkbook if its made in the United States. (opps just gave away abit about what industry I now work in.) Cuts nice and deep like a knife - went all the way to the meat in my finger.

You'll be alright. But take care anyway.

If you keep typing in this size, I will need to go get my eyes checked and will be wearing coke bottle glasses before I am 45 years old

[Adrian II]

If you keep typing in this size, I will need to go get my eyes checked and will be wearing coke bottle glasses before I am 45 years old

Try Tullamore Dew bottoms, they work fine for me!

[Devastatin Dave]

Alright Redleg and Adrian, get a room!!! (Simon, is it ok with you to make a homosexual undertoned joke?)...
I like what bmolssm said about "The high unemployment among immigrants as well as the concentration of them to certain areas creates a tense situation where the "socialist ideals" currently rather strong in France can't live up to what it has promised." If you are a legal citizen or immagrant to a country you should be afforded the same rights and services provided by the government that everyone esle gets, ESPECIALLY when you live in a country with the governmental ideals like France. Are they right to riot, no. But is it understandable, yes. What can be done? There are several approaches France and its citizens can take. They could expell anyone breaking their laws and send them back to their former countries. Would this work? Probably not. So what can be done? I don't have the answer and I doubt that anyone here could come up with a plan that would not cause great discomfort or a fight for anyone involved. This is a problem that, in my meek opinion, will only get worse with no clear victom or victor for either the French government or the immigrants.

[Fragony]

Not that hard to figure out what to do, 3 times out. If they have 2 pasports strip them of their french nationality and send them back to sandland. If they have french pasport, persona non grata for a period of 10 years(after they have sat out their punishment olol who am I kidding) in the city where they wreaked havoc. If you can't kick them out of the country kick them out of the city.

But could we please stop trying to understand them? If we didn't get the hint allready we are pretty damn stupid.

[Devastatin Dave]

Not that hard to figure out what to do, 3 times out. If they have 2 pasports strip them of their french nationality and send them back to sandland. If they have french pasport, persona non grata for a period of 10 years(after they have sat out their punishment olol who am I kidding) in the city where they wreaked havoc. If you can't kick them out of the country kick them out of the city.

But could we please stop trying to understand them? If we didn't get the hint allready we are pretty damn stupid.

Sounds like a plan, but I seriously doubt the French would ever do this.

[Prodigal]

Only made it as far as post 31, & excuse me for making a slight comparison rather than adressing the initial issue directly. It strikes me that the rioting in France bears a striking resemblance to the recent problems in Birmingham, in as much as a single "incident" triggered larger acts violence.

I doubt that the supposed triggers in themselves would be enough to cause rioting, & violence to a level where people are hospitalised & killed, unless in both instances there was some fairly long running problems that have been ignored. Surely people in "authority" can't be so blind as to think everything is a wonderland of milk & honey when people are willing to go on the rampage.

This raises, (in my mind at least), what the hell are these people being paid for? & by people I mean local politicians, local authorities, & the like.

I'm not a very law abiding soul, but going out for a riot isn't my idea of a good time, & I really can't believe there are hundreds of people hangin out in relativly small area's hoping for the next one to kick off so they can smash some stuff up.

So to sum up, hold resposible the useless leeches that let things get so bad in the first place without adressing, or at least warning that there was the potential for serious social unrest.

[el_slapper]

Dunno for B'Ham, but for France, it's mainly national politicians that are to blame. Locals did their best to calm down spirit, when all of a sudden Sarkozy launches anti-riot cops to the town. Of course, the troublemakers suddunly found a good way to express their anger, & once provoked like that, began to lead a lower form of urban guerilla. And yes they have fun fighting their "enemies".

That being said, expelling them is rather tough. You can expel newcomers, they'll go bck home. How do you expel people born in France, i.e. French people? Plus I agree with DD this wouldn't solve anything.

[Fragony]

Locals did their best to calm down spirit, when all of a sudden Sarkozy launches anti-riot cops to the town.

Well there is a riot. Then you use anti-riot cops, or are these just for the hooligans?

[Geoffrey S]

It doesn't help when things are starting to calm down a little.

[Meneldil]

AdrianII, frankly, if you have a realistic solution to this situation, then do share. Shooting them all is not a realistic solution either (merely a rant from a tired student), but that's the best idea I could find, and not a full of hatred rant based on some pseudo scientifical fact : there's nothing we can do for these people, there's no way to help them now, but if we don't do something, the situation will become even worse. That or totally brainwash them in some kind of stalinist ideological camp.
And where did I say they were all savages ? 90% of them are savages, but I think I made my opinion clear about the 10% that achieve to leave the suburbs, to found a job, create a small business.

Now you have a point of view that I can't agree with : for you, the problem lies in the racism shown by the (white) frenchmen towards the arab community. For me, the racism lies in the problem caused by the arab community.

I'm actually studying in a law university, and in this kind of place, you'll find a lot of people with radicaly different opinions : socialists, gaulists, communists, lepénists, ecologists, centrists, royalists, internationalists, etc. And they all (arabs included) agree on the fact there's a serious problem with the arab community.

And La Paillade is probably not La Seine St Denis or Marseilles, but I think I kinda understood how things go in this kind of place during the 6 months I worked there.

Edit :

It doesn't help when things are starting to calm down a little.

And then ? What's next ? We wait for the next riot ? We just shut the **** up, say 'Okay, we're going to handle that quietly. That's not really serious anyway, they are just poor guys. It's not their fault afterall. The police shouldn't have visited this area' and sit doing nothing, which is usually what our political leaders would do ? I seriously don't like Sarkozy, and I'm not a fan of de Villepin, but call a scum a scum.