Riots in France?

[Devastatin Dave]

What do you mean by that?

That socialism, like that in France, can cause more problems than what its worth. We here in the states are seeing the effects of "safety nets" with crim-infested cities, cities that are unlivable for working people as they are only a distribution center for governmental services. When you promise a chicken in every bowl then you need to ensure everyone gets a chicken. But obviously if those folks eating chicken notice that someone else is eating chicken with some extra trimmings, they get jealous, their sense of entitlemant grows, then they riot because they were not GIVEN what someone else has. Again, I can see where these people might have a gripe, but i don't think the rioting solves anything but just proves the point of people who are prejudiced towards immagrants. They can point and say, "See, i told you those people were no good". A vicious cycle for sure...

[Redleg]

That socialism, like that in France, can cause more problems than what its worth. We here in the states are seeing the effects of "safety nets" with crim-infested cities, cities that are unlivable for working people as they are only a distribution center for governmental services. When you promise a chicken in every bowl then you need to ensure everyone gets a chicken. But obviously if those folks eating chicken notice that someone else is eating chicken with some extra trimmings, they get jealous, their sense of entitlemant grows, then they riot because they were not GIVEN what someone else has. Again, I can see where these people might have a gripe, but i don't think the rioting solves anything but just proves the point of people who are prejudiced towards immagrants. They can point and say, "See, i told you those people were no good". A vicious cycle for sure...

Well said

[Adrian II]

That socialism, like that in France, can cause more problems than what its worth.

These riots have nothing to do with France being pro-Arab, anti-American or socialist. France is not a socialist country, the president and government are right-wing and the suburban problems are by no means the result of socialism either. And in order to understand that there is no necessary connection at all, just remember that Britain has had similar race riots in the wake of decades of Thatcherism, whilst the United States has had its own race riots too.

It seems that today French politicians are finally recognising that their whole approach to the suburban problems has been wrong. The head of the Inner City Security Forum, MP Michel Marcus, has said this siatuation is 'a crisis in the relationship between police and the local population rather than an expression of suburban malaise. The police are the only public service that is not adapted to these sensitive areas. There is a problem with methods of intervention, of patrolling by car only, of abusive identity checks.'

The president of the Policeman's Union added his voice to statements that 'drive-by policing' has done a lot of damage and that 'close policing' is necessary to re-establish confidence among the inhabitants.

For those who read Civilised: Le Monde

[Kralizec]

That socialism, like that in France, ...

I know "socialism" has in daily speech has become synonomous to just about everything leftists, but that's a big error. A socialist country by definition has no private companies and the government is in complete control over all infrastructure. Neither goes for France.
At most, France has an overgrown social welfare net.

[Adrian II]

At most, France has an overgrown social welfare net.

Even so, it was applied according to non-socialist principles. For instance non-Arabs were given precedence in social housing; hence the tendency of the least adapted of them to be concentrated in gettos. Anybody read about the huge fires in derelict migrant homes in Paris lately?

[master of the puppets]

Even so, it was applied according to non-socialist principles. For instance non-Arabs were given precedence in social housing; hence the tendency of the least adapted of them to be concentrated in gettos. Anybody read about the huge fires in derelict migrant homes in Paris lately?

yup, just like the rest of tyhe world they see there own full blooded kind asd superior than those of another descent, plus if there system were as correct as i was intended to be it would be almost communist.

[Meneldil]

Well, proximity police would hurt of course, but if they create something like that now, they'll quickly turn into targets for the 16 year old gangster wannabes.
And we seriously lack policemen.

Now AdrianII, do you really think there's a way to turn the rioters into decent, estimable citizens ? I'm not being sarcastic here, but I really would like to hear your opinion on that.

[Radier]

Riots have spread too other places in France now... Dijon, Marsielle... I wonder when it will stop.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe...ots/index.html

[Meneldil]

Yeah, just saw that on TV. Some people (Sarkozy included) are now saying the riots have been planned for a long time. Sounds like crap to me. They just found a reason to have fun.

[Husar]

I agree with faisal, if they make too many problems, just throw them out. If you don´t have enought policemen, get the military, european soldiers are underoccupied anyway IMO and can always use some training...

[Adrian II]

Now AdrianII, do you really think there's a way to turn the rioters into decent, estimable citizens ? I'm not being sarcastic here, but I really would like to hear your opinion on that.

I didn't suggest that I knew some sort of quick fix, did I? If I did, I apologise for being an idiot.

I am thinking of the closest parallel to this situation in my own life. We had a terrorist episode in The Netherlands with our Moluccan minority during the 1970's: train-jackings, entire schools and embassies taken hostage, firebomb attacks, etcetera. The incidents themselves were taken care of by a good combination of police work and paramilitary units. But the root problem was tackled (and I mean really solved, with no remnants of radicalism left) through a consistent dialogue between Dutch government officials and Moluccan community leaders. It took a lot of time and money, there was a lot of mutual irritation, but in the end reason prevailed on both sides. The most important factor was that the community leaders gained new respect within their community because they were talking and negociating one-on-one with the government and every deal they made brought immediate results. In return, they managed to control to unruly Moluccan youths. Nowadays, the Moluccan 'problem' in The Netherlands is non-existent.

Based on my limited knowledge, the first thing that seems absolutely necessary is to isolate the trouble-makers and separate them from the decent inhabitants. If the French authorities have no one to talk to in these neighbourhoods, the situation is even worse that I thought. But I suppose there must be some, only in the present situation they will be less willing to stick their heads out and be counted. Hey, who wants to talk to a closet fascist like Sarkozy? Why hasn't the clown been fired yet?

[bmolsson]

I know "socialism" has in daily speech has become synonomous to just about everything leftists, but that's a big error. A socialist country by definition has no private companies and the government is in complete control over all infrastructure. Neither goes for France.
At most, France has an overgrown social welfare net.

It's not a question of a socialist state or not. It's the mentality and the political direction even among right wingers. The private companies are hampered by over powered unions, creating a too high cost structure, a western European phenomena indeed. Further more, if you receive immigrants with the promise of a future and then don't deliver, it will create a conflict. This regardless if it's a right or left government. There are no reason what so ever to move this discussion in to a left or right discussion. The problem faced in France is creeping on all western European nations, with few excemptions. It's a serious problem for all parties and especially the immigrants themselves......

[Adrian II]

A socialist country by definition has no private companies and the government is in complete control over all infrastructure.

Not quite. In the course of the 20th century Socialism has evolved to the point where it recognizes the pivotal role of private enterprise in society. Trade unions, too, have discarded all notions of collective control over the means of production. Private property is not to be infringed upon because it is a main pillar of personal and political freedom.

Of all the Socialist ideals of the past two hundred years, there are a few that have stood the test of time. They amount to a set of basic principles concerning social justice and political democracy. With regard to the latter, this includes the principle that markets should serve society instead of the other way around. Nationalisation of all industries is not on the agenda. A country like France traditionally has enough state control over the economy to be able to implement socialist principles without changing any of its basic laws and regulations. Only they never did.

It's not a question of a socialist state or not.

Quite. Race riots and social upheavils of this kind have taken place in many countries irrespective of the governments in power. Most western nations have a post-war record of fighting social problems by establishing ever new bureaucracies, and by throwing money at these bureacracies in the hope that some of it will trickle down to the troublemakers and keep them quiet, or at least out of sight. This is essentially what happened in my country. Only the wrong bureaucracies were fostered in the process.

In the early 1970's we had a Socialist-Christian Democrat coalition that instituted a minority policy based on social and economic criteria. Migrants were given subsidies and extra's in accordance to their (measured) social and economic handicaps. The main aim of this policy was that migrants should merge into Dutch society as soon as possible or return to their country of origin with a financial hand-shake. In popular parlance this hand-shake was know as the 'f***-off premium'.

Then, in the 1980's, we had three subsequent right-wing governments led by Christian Democrat Ruud Lubbers (of subsequent UN sexual harassment fame) who imposed his own minority policy. According to Lubers & Co., ethnic and religious minorities should to stick together, uphold their separate 'identity', and retain their original culture and religion as much as possible. The idea behind that was it would enable them to develop their own particular strenghths within Dutch society. This policy was dubbed 'Emancipation within one's own circle'.

As a consequence, religious and ethnic organisations in The Netherlands were heavily subsidised. The 1980's and 1990's saw a flurry of new islamic religious organisations, movements and schools; and these were accepted as legitimate negociating partners by the government. The net result is that we now have a huge undergrowth of religiously inspired organisations that hamper the effective, day-to-day integration of muslims into Dutch society. Religion has become much more of an issue than it used to be. If this trend is allowed to continue, we will have our own riots in ten or twenty-five years time.

So no, sorry, this lack of integration was not caused by Socialists but by Christian Demcorats who offered their own (out-dated) horizontal networks and civic organisations as a model to migrants.

[Kanamori]

BLANC MESNIL, France (AP) - Bands of youths roaming Parisian suburbs burned more than 500 vehicles and hurled stones at police Friday, as the worst rioting in a decade entered its second week and spread elsewhere in France. The U.S. warned Americans against taking trains to the airport via strife-torn areas.

A savage assault on a bus passenger highlighted the dangers of travel in the impoverished outlying neighborhoods, where authorities were struggling to regain control.

Attackers doused the woman, in her 50s and on crutches, with an inflammable liquid and set her afire as she tried to get off a bus in the suburb of Sevran Wednesday, judicial officials said. The bus had been forced to stop because of burning objects in its path. She was rescued by the driver and hospitalized with severe burns.

Justice Minister Pascal Clement deplored the incident, saying it caused him ``great emotion.''

With the unrest growing beyond the French capital, gangs burned five cars in the eastern city of Dijon and 11 in the southern city of Marseille.

Violence continued into the evening for the ninth night in a row with troublemakers firing bullets into a vandalized bus and setting a warehouse ablaze in the Paris area. In Meaux, east of Paris, police said youths prevented firefighters from evacuating a sick person from an apartment building, pelting them with stones and torching the awaiting ambulance.

Personally, if martial law isn't declared there, I think it ought to be. Obviously, the police are not in control there, and the rights of law-abiding citizens come first. But that is just an outsiders perspective.

[Adrian II]

Obviously, the police are not in control there, and the rights of law-abiding citizens come first. But that is just an outsiders perspective.

The rest of that article is interesting as well. It shows the silent majority in these suburbs is not entirely silent.

The unrest erupted with youths angered over the deaths of Bouna Traore, 15, and Zyed Benna, 17, who were electrocuted when they hid in a power substation in the suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois. Traore's brother, Siyakah Traore, called for protesters to "calm down and stop ransacking everything. This is not how we are going to have our voices heard," he told RTL radio, adding his voice to neighborhood groups working to stop the violence.

Dozens of residents and community leaders were stepping in to defuse tensions, with some walking between rioters and police to urge youths to back down. Abderrhamane Bouhout, head of the Bilal mosque in Clichy-sous-Bois, said he had enlisted 50 youths to try stop the violence. "We've had positive results," he said.

[Kanamori]

Yet, the cars and people burn. The police are not in control.

[bmolsson]

So no, sorry, this lack of integration was not caused by Socialists but by Christian Demcorats who offered their own (out-dated) horizontal networks and civic organisations as a model to migrants.

As I said, the French society are not delivering what it has promised. As a muslim, I of course recognize both socialists and Christian Democrats as infidels......

[Meneldil]

As I said, the French society are not delivering what it has promised. As a muslim, I of course recognize both socialists and Christian Democrats as infidels......

Well, that's true. But I think it would be time for my country to admit it can not offer a new home to poors from all around the world.

[Soulforged]

I don't see a way to end it. Sure, the riots will stop at some point. But any long term solution? Maybe drastic problems require drastic solutions. Demolish each banlieu, forcibly spread it's populations over the rest of France, finally accept that twenty percent of her population is not from France, and demand an unconditional acceptance of French republical values by those residing within her borders.

Welcome to Argentina.

[bmolsson]

I think it would be time for my country to admit it can not offer a new home to poors from all around the world.

Very difficult in a democracy where political power is gained by making unrealistic promises during the elections. I can see that the political crisis in France might be far more serious than we can imagine at the moment....