Riots in France?

[Meneldil]

I agree with faisal, if they make too many problems, just throw them out. If you don´t have enought policemen, get the military, european soldiers are underoccupied anyway IMO and can always use some training...

Throw them out where ? They are french. We could always send them on a work camp in La Réunion or in french Guyanne.

It seems that journalists from many countries are now covering these events.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

what happened to all the Algerian French? Were they forced into a position that required them to leave Algeria? If so, did they mostly relocate to France?

I presume the French Algerians would go to Algeria if they were required to vacate France.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Well, were to begin...

To start with the two of the main protagonists in this thread, I agree with both A2 and Meneldil. Meneldil is right, the banlieues are not part of France. Neither mentally or socially. Not in the hearts and minds of those either within or outside of them. It is a shadowy underworld that is somehow physically attached to France. It is a tale of two cities.

It is not even about race or Islam or socio-economic differences anymore. It is far worse. We have become a caste society.

Adrian is right too in his criticism of French policy. We have done nothing to prevent an underclass of untoucheables from forming.

But then, there is a what came first, the chicken or the egg, aspect to it. Did perennial police harrassment, poor economical prospects and blatant indifference come first? Or the mockery of all and any Republican values, the hatred of 'white effeminate pigs', the immigration is only physical and not in the minds? If you don't leave Algiers behind when you move to Paris, then you'll end up living in an Algiers in Paris.

I don't see a way to end it. Sure, the riots will stop at some point. But any long term solution? Maybe drastic problems require drastic solutions. Demolish each banlieu, forcibly spread it's populations over the rest of France, finally accept that twenty percent of her population is not from France, and demand an unconditional acceptance of French republical values by those residing within her borders.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

The French government supported Saddam because it suited their purposes- not because they like Arabs (or Saddam, for that matter)

About who gave France nukes...that would be France. They developed their own under De Gaulle in the 60'ties if memory serves.

Of course they supported Saddam. They even paradropped trainers to him D-Day -1. They taught the Iraqis the valuable art of surrender

And the Nuke thing is just hilarious. French Nukes, I cannot picture that.

[Husar]

Throw them out where ? They are french. We could always send them on a work camp in La Réunion or in french Guyanne.

It seems that journalists from many countries are now covering these events.

Well, you already found two possibilities.
If they didn´t manage to integrate after 3 generations you could also send them back to where the 1st generation came from.
If a bacillus comes into my body and won´t "integrate"( ) but make trouble, my body will do everything to get rid of that bacillus, even if that bacillus has already reproduced itself, it´s just a natural reaction to strangers......

Btw, sometimes I´d like to throw out some locals as well, so nationality shouldn´t be the problem when it comes to throwing people out of a country.

[Adrian II]

Now AdrianII, do you really think there's a way to turn the rioters into decent, estimable citizens ? I'm not being sarcastic here, but I really would like to hear your opinion on that.

I didn't suggest that I knew some sort of quick fix, did I? If I did, I apologise for being an idiot.

I am thinking of the closest parallel to this situation in my own life. We had a terrorist episode in The Netherlands with our Moluccan minority during the 1970's: train-jackings, entire schools and embassies taken hostage, firebomb attacks, etcetera. The incidents themselves were taken care of by a good combination of police work and paramilitary units. But the root problem was tackled (and I mean really solved, with no remnants of radicalism left) through a consistent dialogue between Dutch government officials and Moluccan community leaders. It took a lot of time and money, there was a lot of mutual irritation, but in the end reason prevailed on both sides. The most important factor was that the community leaders gained new respect within their community because they were talking and negociating one-on-one with the government and every deal they made brought immediate results. In return, they managed to control to unruly Moluccan youths. Nowadays, the Moluccan 'problem' in The Netherlands is non-existent.

Based on my limited knowledge, the first thing that seems absolutely necessary is to isolate the trouble-makers and separate them from the decent inhabitants. If the French authorities have no one to talk to in these neighbourhoods, the situation is even worse that I thought. But I suppose there must be some, only in the present situation they will be less willing to stick their heads out and be counted. Hey, who wants to talk to a closet fascist like Sarkozy? Why hasn't the clown been fired yet?

[Adrian II]

(..) and demand an unconditional acceptance of French republican values by those residing within her borders.

Crux of the matter! After all, these values are not 'French' but universal. Migrants should make up their minds whether they want to live in (and contribute to) a modern, secular republic based on equality before the law or not. But it may take a while before ethnic or tribalist migrant communities dissolve into modern family units.

From a bird's eye view, this situation is nothing new in the history of civilisation. American posters might take that to heart. The United States experienced this problem earlier on because of the mass immigration in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century resulting in gettos for Italians, Irish, Polish, Germans, Greeks, Jews, you name it. The country has seen anti-immigrant riots, anti-Catholic riots, anti-Chinese, anti-Jewish, anti-Italian riots, massacres of black Americans, riots by black Americans (e.g. the Watts Riots), the list goes on. This is what happens to real countries, as opposed to my own midget nation that is too tight-knit for such mass confrontations.

[bmolsson]

I know "socialism" has in daily speech has become synonomous to just about everything leftists, but that's a big error. A socialist country by definition has no private companies and the government is in complete control over all infrastructure. Neither goes for France.
At most, France has an overgrown social welfare net.

It's not a question of a socialist state or not. It's the mentality and the political direction even among right wingers. The private companies are hampered by over powered unions, creating a too high cost structure, a western European phenomena indeed. Further more, if you receive immigrants with the promise of a future and then don't deliver, it will create a conflict. This regardless if it's a right or left government. There are no reason what so ever to move this discussion in to a left or right discussion. The problem faced in France is creeping on all western European nations, with few excemptions. It's a serious problem for all parties and especially the immigrants themselves......

[Adrian II]

A socialist country by definition has no private companies and the government is in complete control over all infrastructure.

Not quite. In the course of the 20th century Socialism has evolved to the point where it recognizes the pivotal role of private enterprise in society. Trade unions, too, have discarded all notions of collective control over the means of production. Private property is not to be infringed upon because it is a main pillar of personal and political freedom.

Of all the Socialist ideals of the past two hundred years, there are a few that have stood the test of time. They amount to a set of basic principles concerning social justice and political democracy. With regard to the latter, this includes the principle that markets should serve society instead of the other way around. Nationalisation of all industries is not on the agenda. A country like France traditionally has enough state control over the economy to be able to implement socialist principles without changing any of its basic laws and regulations. Only they never did.

It's not a question of a socialist state or not.

Quite. Race riots and social upheavils of this kind have taken place in many countries irrespective of the governments in power. Most western nations have a post-war record of fighting social problems by establishing ever new bureaucracies, and by throwing money at these bureacracies in the hope that some of it will trickle down to the troublemakers and keep them quiet, or at least out of sight. This is essentially what happened in my country. Only the wrong bureaucracies were fostered in the process.

In the early 1970's we had a Socialist-Christian Democrat coalition that instituted a minority policy based on social and economic criteria. Migrants were given subsidies and extra's in accordance to their (measured) social and economic handicaps. The main aim of this policy was that migrants should merge into Dutch society as soon as possible or return to their country of origin with a financial hand-shake. In popular parlance this hand-shake was know as the 'f***-off premium'.

Then, in the 1980's, we had three subsequent right-wing governments led by Christian Democrat Ruud Lubbers (of subsequent UN sexual harassment fame) who imposed his own minority policy. According to Lubers & Co., ethnic and religious minorities should to stick together, uphold their separate 'identity', and retain their original culture and religion as much as possible. The idea behind that was it would enable them to develop their own particular strenghths within Dutch society. This policy was dubbed 'Emancipation within one's own circle'.

As a consequence, religious and ethnic organisations in The Netherlands were heavily subsidised. The 1980's and 1990's saw a flurry of new islamic religious organisations, movements and schools; and these were accepted as legitimate negociating partners by the government. The net result is that we now have a huge undergrowth of religiously inspired organisations that hamper the effective, day-to-day integration of muslims into Dutch society. Religion has become much more of an issue than it used to be. If this trend is allowed to continue, we will have our own riots in ten or twenty-five years time.

So no, sorry, this lack of integration was not caused by Socialists but by Christian Demcorats who offered their own (out-dated) horizontal networks and civic organisations as a model to migrants.

[Kanamori]

BLANC MESNIL, France (AP) - Bands of youths roaming Parisian suburbs burned more than 500 vehicles and hurled stones at police Friday, as the worst rioting in a decade entered its second week and spread elsewhere in France. The U.S. warned Americans against taking trains to the airport via strife-torn areas.

A savage assault on a bus passenger highlighted the dangers of travel in the impoverished outlying neighborhoods, where authorities were struggling to regain control.

Attackers doused the woman, in her 50s and on crutches, with an inflammable liquid and set her afire as she tried to get off a bus in the suburb of Sevran Wednesday, judicial officials said. The bus had been forced to stop because of burning objects in its path. She was rescued by the driver and hospitalized with severe burns.

Justice Minister Pascal Clement deplored the incident, saying it caused him ``great emotion.''

With the unrest growing beyond the French capital, gangs burned five cars in the eastern city of Dijon and 11 in the southern city of Marseille.

Violence continued into the evening for the ninth night in a row with troublemakers firing bullets into a vandalized bus and setting a warehouse ablaze in the Paris area. In Meaux, east of Paris, police said youths prevented firefighters from evacuating a sick person from an apartment building, pelting them with stones and torching the awaiting ambulance.

Personally, if martial law isn't declared there, I think it ought to be. Obviously, the police are not in control there, and the rights of law-abiding citizens come first. But that is just an outsiders perspective.

[Adrian II]

Obviously, the police are not in control there, and the rights of law-abiding citizens come first. But that is just an outsiders perspective.

The rest of that article is interesting as well. It shows the silent majority in these suburbs is not entirely silent.

The unrest erupted with youths angered over the deaths of Bouna Traore, 15, and Zyed Benna, 17, who were electrocuted when they hid in a power substation in the suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois. Traore's brother, Siyakah Traore, called for protesters to "calm down and stop ransacking everything. This is not how we are going to have our voices heard," he told RTL radio, adding his voice to neighborhood groups working to stop the violence.

Dozens of residents and community leaders were stepping in to defuse tensions, with some walking between rioters and police to urge youths to back down. Abderrhamane Bouhout, head of the Bilal mosque in Clichy-sous-Bois, said he had enlisted 50 youths to try stop the violence. "We've had positive results," he said.

[Kanamori]

Yet, the cars and people burn. The police are not in control.

[Adrian II]

Yet, the cars and people burn. The police are not in control.

They haven't been for decades, that is one of the root causes. Much is being made of unemployment in these neighbourhoods, but the numbers of unemployed are relatively low (15% mostly). Immigrant housing in France is crap, but that is hardly the reason why youths would set cars on fire.

I really think Marcus (whom I quoted above) hit the nail on the head when he said this is basically a breakdown of trust between police and the communities in question. People are (and have been for some time) left to their own devices to maintain a semblance of civilised public life. You really think martial law is the answer? More riot police, marching in battle order, firing tear gas into mosques and making random arrests, could hardly restore order. It might be a good idea if government officials would talk directly to community leaders, be seen to talk to them, and be seen making deals with them that go into immediate effect so as to give these leaders more influence and control over the situation. Without such cooperation, there is no end to these riots in sight. And with it, who knows this could be the beginning of a beautiful new policy.

[bmolsson]

So no, sorry, this lack of integration was not caused by Socialists but by Christian Demcorats who offered their own (out-dated) horizontal networks and civic organisations as a model to migrants.

As I said, the French society are not delivering what it has promised. As a muslim, I of course recognize both socialists and Christian Democrats as infidels......

[Meneldil]

As I said, the French society are not delivering what it has promised. As a muslim, I of course recognize both socialists and Christian Democrats as infidels......

Well, that's true. But I think it would be time for my country to admit it can not offer a new home to poors from all around the world.

[Soulforged]

I don't see a way to end it. Sure, the riots will stop at some point. But any long term solution? Maybe drastic problems require drastic solutions. Demolish each banlieu, forcibly spread it's populations over the rest of France, finally accept that twenty percent of her population is not from France, and demand an unconditional acceptance of French republical values by those residing within her borders.

Welcome to Argentina.

[scooter_the_shooter]

Give them a chance to go back to their homes. If they refuse send the national gaurd in (if you guys have one).

[bmolsson]

I think it would be time for my country to admit it can not offer a new home to poors from all around the world.

Very difficult in a democracy where political power is gained by making unrealistic promises during the elections. I can see that the political crisis in France might be far more serious than we can imagine at the moment....

[Meneldil]

Well, I'm not sure anyone promised to rescue poors from the whole world.
It's rather some historical ideology, you know, the Revolution, the Republic, the Human Rights and all that stuffs

[Radier]

Swedish news report that the riots have spread to the central parts of Paris, and cars are burning right in front of tourist hotels. The "leaders" of the riots use cellphones an internetsites to map the movements of the police. What started like a riot of uncontrolled anger has now turned into a orginazed riot with smaller and quicker gangs.

Give them one chance to go home, then send in the army, like Ceasar said.

[Fragony]

How nice, a disabled women was set on fire. Some nutjob poured some gassoline on her and kindly offered her a light. Frenchie's too soft, police officers are being shot at, why isn't the army deployed? It is obvious that France is under attack

[Meneldil]

How nice, a disabled women was set on fire. Some nutjob poured some gassoline on her and kindly offered her a light. Frenchie's too soft, police officers are being shot at, why isn't the army deployed? It is obvious that France is under attack

Well, right now, I wouldn't mind if our government send some Leclercs tanks there. It clearly looks like a civil war, but no one will have the guts to do such a thing.

[Fragony]

Well, right now, I wouldn't mind if our government send some Leclercs tanks there. It clearly looks like a civil war, but no one will have the guts to do such a thing.

Clear the streets yourselves. Why aren't the hooligans teaming up, that is what they did here when van Gogh was murdered. Didn't come to a fight but nice to have a backup when government is refusing to do their job. I am pretty sure that this would never happen here without some serious backlash, I don't get you guys.

[Husar]

Clear the streets yourselves. Why aren't the hooligans teaming up, that is what they did here when van Gogh was murdered. Didn't come to a fight but nice to have a backup when government is refusing to do their job. I am pretty sure that this would never happen here without some serious backlash, I don't get you guys.

I agree, that´s the only use I see for our Neo-Nazis.
All of France is burning and the politicians do what they always do...talk, talk, talk...

[Meneldil]

I'm not a hooligan.
Anyway, Hooligans and Neo Nazis are almost forbidden in France. I never ever met a skinhead in my whole life.

Anyway, I seriously think my country is screwed up, and I decided not to bother anymore about all the crap happening here.

[Radier]

I should have voted on Jean-Marie Le Pen. You obviously need some changes there...

[Louis VI the Fat]

Well, I'm not sure anyone promised to rescue poors from the whole world.
It's rather some historical ideology, you know, the Revolution, the Republic, the Human Rights and all that stuffs

Well that racaille torched four cars on our Place de la République last night.

That's their gratitude for our universal offer of liberty and human rights.

The choice is and has always been up to them. They can choose between the Republic, and accept our offer of freedom and prosperity. Or they can choose to continue their petty lives of war, poverty and the desecration of the value of human life.

I've had quite enough of their attitude. Go and live in Algeria or Senegal if that's the kind of society you prefer.

[Meneldil]

Well, it looks like you're even more radical than me on this issue.

Quite frankly, I don't think France ever delivered what it promised to migrants.
But then I don't think France even delivered what it has promised to French.

[Ldvs]

Anyway, I seriously think my country is screwed up, and I decided not to bother anymore about all the crap happening here.

/me pats Meneldil on the shoulder

I've had quite enough of their attitude. Go and live in Algeria or Senegal if that's the kind of society you prefer.

I think the responsibilities are shared. If France, at the time, hadn't showed such ingratitude towards the Africans who fought along with us in 1914-18 and 39-45 and had adopted a softer stance on the colonial issue we would very likely never have faced the Algeria war and the consequent wave of immigration that ensued. These people, who fought for us, were housed and worked (hard) in terrible conditions. Yet they didn't complain much. These ones have the right to protest.

Now, if you take this bunch of lazy, decadent, uncivil and violent thugs (not only Arabs), then I agree with you. They are free to leave and I certainly wouldn't regret them. What saddens me though, is that the Arab people who truly are willing to work are discredited because of those scum.

[Husar]

I think one of the main reasons slums aren´t nice is people being sluttish(yeah, looked that one up if it sounds strange ).
If you´re poor that´s not really an excuse for not washing yourself, your clothes and throwing garbage onto the street. Same goes for pissing against walls and drinking so much that you have to puke onto the sidewalk. This are in my oppinion typical things that make slums a place noone wants to be, and it is one of the things that isn´t nice in my new neighborhood(pity I didn´t have more time to search for a place to live). And I don´t care where people come from, if they don´t want to wash themselves, I have a lower opinion about them, if these people are mostly immigrants(and from what I have seen, many of them are) I still wouldn´t call that racism.

Solution: If some people just tried to spend their money on useful things and not destroy their neighborhood by stupid actions, they would have a much better life in our society, even if they´re unemployed.

And a policeman is much less inclined to discriminate people if they keep their village clean and safe.