CIA runs network of secret prisons

[Divinus Arma]

A new generation of war and a new generation of tactics.

Remember the "nice wars" we all loved to recreate with TW?

All that nicety has taken the final dump. We are reaching the final evolution of war, where kindness is nearly erradicated.


They "cheat", so we too must "cheat". It happens with every new generation of warfare. Gunpowder used to be cheating, too. Those who do not adapt are destroyed.

[Papewaio]

If cheating is torturing people and ignoring your own system of law then isn't the CIA breaking the USAs Consitution?

Isn't the military supposed to protect the Consitution from all enemies foreign and domestic? Hypothetically are the military too scared of the CIA to make a move against them if the CIA was undermining the Consitution?

When the going gets tough we see the true moral values people hold. When you decide that torture is ok, that is what your true day to day morals are. Everything else is just a sugar coating.

Wouldn't torture be against the idea of American Justice?

Is American Justice something real or is it just a propaganda tool and for comic strips?

Are all men created equal?

[Soulforged]

If cheating is torturing people and ignoring your own system of law then isn't the CIA breaking the USAs Consitution?

I don't think that any special organization abides to the Constitution. It goes beneath it's purposes, wich puts national security, almost to the level of paranoia and external eternal distrust, above all other ideals, wich in fact are more important, freedom for example. A short sentence will be like this "You must give up some of your freedom so you can be safe". Not my kind of banner if you ask me. Another, this time famous, frase will be this "If one's not safe, one cannot be free", the problem is taking this to the extreme...

[PanzerJaeger]

Awsome!? Dave, that's going too far. This is sick. This is abuse of power. This is trampling on our national values.

Dont be so arrogant as to assume you can speak for what values americans hold most dearly. The safety of my family and myself is of the utmost importance to this american.

[PanzerJaeger]

Funny. That goes against the founding values of America. I recall something to the extent of "He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither.", no?

Sigh, dense your head is.

Dont be so arrogant as to assume you can speak for what values americans hold most dearly.

[Papewaio]

Well the Founding Fathers Declaration of Independence seems to be against these actions:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province,

[PanzerJaeger]

Just because you happen to prefer someone is tortured so you can sleep that much better at night does not make you any more qualified to speak for the American people. It just makes you a coward.

Im not the one so presumptuous as to become offended and speak for the american people. It makes you not only a drama queen, but extremely arrogant.

And if we are playing the name game, putting the safety of the enemy above your own countrymen makes you the worst kind of american, a traitor. This isnt The Bold and The Beautiful, there are american lives at stake.

[Papewaio]

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons"

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites."

[Adrian II]

I'm not saying that as a cheap talking point. If you think that the only and best way to protect Americans is to abase ourselves by torturing people, I genuinely find you either a coward or totally naive.

This thread disgusts me. The revolution didn't happen so we could do crap like this.

Respect, man. I know several more Americans like you in real life (and I know there are many more out there) who agree and who find this whole thing deeply un-American in the sense you just described. That is why I trust that these practices will sooner or later be stopped or corrected by democratic means, as they always have in American history. But they will not stop spontaneously. Middle America will have to put its weight behind the effort.

[Slyspy]

Im not the one so presumptuous as to become offended and speak for the american people. It makes you not only a drama queen, but extremely arrogant.

And if we are playing the name game, putting the safety of the enemy above your own countrymen makes you the worst kind of american, a traitor. This isnt The Bold and The Beautiful, there are american lives at stake.

And you do not embody the American who gains admiration and respect, who embodies the "American Way".

[master of the puppets]

Are all men created equal?

no, well yes some were created equal but have long since demeaned themselves beyond the status of an honorable human being, those in the cia who commit such horrors are almost as terrible asa those terrorists, yet while we need a lower class to do labor we will need a lower person to do ignoble deeds for sometimes those deeds were the sheild that defended an equally dastardly deed. you may catch a terrorist byu reviewing papers, observation, and raids but it is much quicker/easier/better to have one tattle on his own, involuntary if the threat is so great.

[yesdachi]

I heard an excellent discussion about torture on the radio the other day with a guy who was an interrogator in Nam. He basically said aggressive interrogation and even light torture (less physical, more mental) are way more successful than any real torture or physical violence especially with people from the Middle East. He kind of implied that in order to be really good at torture you need to be a sick sob and not many Americans could ever do the kinds of torture that other countries do. He ended saying that although he had some regrets he thought he and the country did the right thing and that the policies regarding torture were right and acceptable but an ugly part of the system he wished didn’t exist.