RTW Multiplayer Rules: A Synopsis

[GrimSta]

first off, mods can you please move this to Campus Martius as i dont have the right level of Privilages

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Hello all, not many people in this forum know me as i rarely post here

Im writing this (for want of a better word) Article on the application and effects of rules in multiplayer games of BI and RTW. Many games i have played in require the player to acknowladge a set of rules to even allow themselves to play.

Im basiccly trying to pinpoint the need for rules in an online game, and then say *why* they are not needed for an enjoyable game.

1 Common Rules (to name but a few)

a) Maximum of 8 Cavalry Units.

This is strange, Maximum of 8 units of cavalry limits a Hunic or Sarmation/Roxoloani player in BI (Parthia/Armenia/Numidian in Vanilla) and i feel 8 units of Cav is totaly un-warranted. IF i were to face a game against someone taking 8 units of cavalry i would know to be prepared, largley because my normal armies feautre lots of spearmen anyway (but thats beside the point ) *if* you see someone taking any of the aforementioned armies just take a look at the amount of men they have taken, thats a fairly good indicator of the type of army available. e.g in a large size game a Sarmatian player with 600 men is probably OD'ing on the cav, to counter it take your armies basic spearman choice (Saxon Keel/Barb-Picitish Spearmen/Levy Spearmen etc etc) this provides an effective cunter to cavalry spammers.
Archers are also one of the best ways to counter Cavalry units. 4 Units of Archers with lvl 2 weapon upgrades is a) very cheap b) deadly to cavalry. Hide the Archers behind your main inf, turn off Skirmisher mode and watch your archers pick off the cav one by one. Obviously upgrade the weps to lvl 3 if you can.

b) Maximum of 2 Units of Horse Archers/No Cantabarian Circle

I can see were this is comming from, but again i disagree. As a Burgundii player i find Horse Archers are soemthing i could spend time and energy worryign about, but i dont, for the very simple reason that once they have run out of arrows the main enemy army is most likley 6ft Under, or my army is, this often leaves the Cav Archers in the strange position of being the only 2 units left alive at the end. Many players will send their cav archers out ahead to draw out certain units (cavalry/archers/light inf) of course they will never catch them so is this a good way to spend 600 Denarii?? not really imho, a unit of cheap Barb Cavalry will give the Horse Archers all the chasing they need and also survive the arrow storm that will come its way, at about half the price of the cav archers.
Limiting them too two units actually increases thier effectivness, commanders learn to value them.
Archers have a hard time agianst horse archers due to the Cantabarian Circle, which helps keep your HA alive....indeed it does but in my experiance (stats may not reflect this) they kill less. people may argue with me on this, but i find that a unit of Desert Horsmen (berber cav archers) will kill more than a Circling unit of Sassanid Horse Archers. no idea why, but in my experiance it is the truth

C) Maximum of 6 Units of Any one Type

I disagree with this totaly and Utterly. Some people say it is to stop people spamming the Plumbatarii, so what? Plumbatarii are only good agianst Infantry charging them head on.....hit em in the side with a unit of Burgundian Lancers, or Clibinarii and watch those Legionaires go running back to Ravenna.
In my Celt army i take 8 units of Gallowglasses, why? beacuse they are good celt infantry. my opponents regularly take many units of Plumbatarii and get jacked off when i take 8 units of Gallows. why? because i have *8* of them. this is of course totaly unfair, compared to the oh so weak Plumbatarii army of doom. now everyone has at one point used Plumbatarii...in fact the first army i used was WRE with 5 Plumbs and a 1st Cohort. i rarely lost a game. now however i use a totaly differant army (ill go into more detail later)
and i enjoy playing it, its never one sided unlike the games withg my Plumbatarii army.
and the point is that i still have very good games with no limits than i do against people who list 10 restrictions on the game.

D) Maximum of 2 Units of Berserkers

I can see what some people are getting at, Berserkers are very good, however they also have the armour of a small rubber duck, shoot em and they fall, they have two HP, but a defence of 9, compare that too a legionaires defence of 25 and we see the differance.
My Burgundii Army in a 10K game looks like this:

Generals Unit: Chosen Horde Swordsmen
2 Units of Lombard Berserkers
6 Units of Burgundii Lancers
2 Units of Barbarian Cavalry
5 Units of Barbarian Spearmen
2 Units of Chosen Axemen

Ok, i lose games sometimes, i also win games. and the Berserkers have *never* won a game for me, i tried using 4 Berserkers, and i ended up losing more than i did with two units, god alon knows why ( ) but i did. oh, and with this army i did not build around the rules of units and restrictions, i built it because it is balanced.

Hounds of Culaan - More berserkers, weaker than Lombards but easier to build and cheaper, potentialy you can field more but people restrict them. why?? oh why? they are not game winners, any more than Lombards are, or any more than a ERE army of 3 units of clibinarii is. Berserkersgo...well..berserk, you lose control and they hunt enemies relentlesly, but i prefer direct control over frenzy, and im sure many other people do too.

E) No Artillary

This is the biggie, this and Elephants. The rule of no Artillary is one used in 99% of games you will play. i do not see why they should
not be used, they are not that great. Onagers cant hit moving units at all, and ballistas kill less than Archers do...so why cant we take them? the reason is, and it is the same for every restricted unit, that people cannot figure out valid tactics to beat them. Personally i prefer using light cav to drive the crews away from the machines, other people use Archers/Skirmishers though.
Liek i said earlier, Artillary can be beaten by people who actually think about the overall strategy, and use thier faster units to draw fire away from their main line units, who use archers to pepper the crews, who use light cav to drive the crew away. who can succesfully beat the enemy army without caring about the two units of onagers shooting balls of fire on them. people who can, in a word adapt to new enviroments and short term tactics with a felxibly designed army.

F) No Elephants

The best games i ever played were against |StormyLegion|Sparks persian army with 2 Elephants, 8 Horse Archers and 10 Levy Spearmen, i could not beat, got knows i tried. but the whole fun was that i spent time devising strategy after strategy to alleviate disaster for my Slavs/Germans or Berbers in equal measure.
Elephants can be downed by Legionaires....Romano British Legionaires. Javlins are key, and Flaming Arrows are pretty usful too , i still lost but the point was i *nearly* won the game, but i still enjoyed it.

G) Limits on Archers

Lots of Archers are hard to cope with. i recomend using about 3-4 units, but they are not exactly hard to kill, again the wonderful Barbarian Cavalry can facilitate in the removal of most archers. Remember, when archers run they dont shoot.
If someone limits you too 2 units of archers, then the reason is that they have an army that cannot cope with more than two units.

Putting my money were my Mouth is!

The Army i use to play online varies depending on what army i face. If i face Rome, i go for my Celtic Army:
Generals Unit: Noble Cavalry
3 Units of Noble Cavalry
2 Hounds of Culaan
7-8 Gallowglasses with gold/silver weapons
2 Pictish Crossbowmen
2 Kerns

I personally find this army balanced enough to take out some armies, and i do lose my share, i would say i am 50/50, when Hounds charge in conjunction with Gallows then the enemy knows whats hit them

Over to the Burgundii

Generals Unit: Chosen Horde Swordsmen
2 Units of Lombard Berserkers
6 Units of Burgundii Lancers
2 Units of Barbarian Cavalry
5 Units of Barbarian Spearmen
2 Units of Chosen Axemen

This army as i have already mentioned is balanced and can cope with cav spammers, and also infantry spammers. It is fun to play with and i am also at 50/50 wins losses with it.the more cavalry in this army shows that Lancers are very useful, in flanking and also Wedge formation into another Cav unit, the +10 Charge Bonus is worth it imho....but i do also love the units design and the fact they are "Lancers". Lancers of course are a very "flash" unit in the British Military History.

Summary

Rules are made by the people the rules help. God knows i am a hypocrite when i say this, i only stopped the Artillary rule today, once i actually looked at my game plan and thought about how *we* are ruining the whole point of online gaming in the RTW Universe. Rules only hinder the person joining the game, not the host, and i think to balance out games of BI and RTW online we should remove the factors designed by us, the players to balance the game.....the rules we impose on our games.
I know i am going to get flak from people saying rules stop people spamming units, but if they take the time to look over what i have just posted then they may, hopefully chaneg their minds.

well, thats my two cents (+$50 shipping charge ) and like i said, i hope i can change some old habbits around here. If anyone wants to discuss this with me, then feel free, i can be contacted on MSN at teh_bear@fsmail.net, and any posts here i will do my utmost to respond to (im in Scotland, so Americans and Aussies may have trouble getting me on MSN )

Later Folks!!

[Orda Khan]

Well Grimsta, you will most definitely not be getting any critcism from me. Maybe more people would do well to adopt your approach to a game that should be an enjoyable experience. I have maintained this since I began playing. Rules only ruin the game and as you rightly point out, are imposed mainly to 'help' overcome a supposed problem, that problem being the fact that they cannot overcome it any other way

.....Orda

[Vanya]

GAH!

Well said.

Vanya always likes challenges anyways.

Vanya sez... If host fear da rush, host low koku.

Now, if only Vanya could get some Roman Arquebusiers...

GAH!

[GrimSta]

thanks for the replies guys, i would have responded sooner but i only just got full membership

I uploaded some battle replays, ill get a link and post it here

[Puzz3D]

Im basiccly trying to pinpoint the need for rules in an online game, and then say *why* they are not needed for an enjoyable game.

I'm against rules as well. The game shouldn't need them. If the gameplay without rules deteriorates to armies that can only be countered by the same army, the game is fundamentally flawed and isn't worth playing.

[hellenes]

I'm against rules as well. The game shouldn't need them. If the gameplay without rules deteriorates to armies that can only be countered by the same army, the game is fundamentally flawed and isn't worth playing.

Correct, and to add something:
Rules were created to play in a flawed and imbalanced game against:
People that you dont know.
People that arent your friends.
People that play ONLY to win.
People that have no lives but only testing the engine for exploits and weaknesses.
And we all know the percentage of such people online...

Hellenes

[Jochi Khan]

It is now getting so bad that, players joining a game hosted with *no rules* are trying to insist on 'no art' 'no eles' 'xx max cav' etc. etc. etc.

What would happen if you walked onto the football field and told the opposing side "no offside, no penalties and no tackling"
I know what sort of answer you would get.

The game is there to be played, it has it's own rules, you don't make it up as you go along.

Yes unfortunately, there are people who 'must win at all costs'.

But, it has been this way right from Shogun through Medieval and now into Rome.

Jochi

[GrimSta]

I am in a clan at the moment, but i have all but stopped playing online games due to the shear amount of rules....it really does suck, and i will still play online games, but only against my good friends and people with similar outlooks on the game as myself.

[Orda Khan]

People that have no lives but only testing the engine for exploits and weaknesses.

That sums up Total War MP. Very well said Hellenes. This is no new phenomenon, every Total War game has been fundamentally flawed and we should remember that. Rules have been, or could have been, applied to any of the series and all these fundamentally flawed games probably were/are not worth playing. On reflection, I have possibly wasted five years by playing this series and all the crap that comes with it. But all the crap is basically introduced by the players not the game. It's the players analytical approach to a game that is supposed to represent historical warfare that ruins MP. I have played many MP games where the approach was to field realistic armies and these were far more enjoyable than the usual

.......Orda

[hellenes]

That sums up Total War MP. Very well said Hellenes. This is no new phenomenon, every Total War game has been fundamentally flawed and we should remember that. Rules have been, or could have been, applied to any of the series and all these fundamentally flawed games probably were/are not worth playing. On reflection, I have possibly wasted five years by playing this series and all the crap that comes with it. But all the crap is basically introduced by the players not the game. It's the players analytical approach to a game that is supposed to represent historical warfare that ruins MP. I have played many MP games where the approach was to field realistic armies and these were far more enjoyable than the usual

.......Orda

One word:
http://www.blizzard.com/patches/

Hellenes

[Puzz3D]

It's the players analytical approach to a game that is supposed to represent historical warfare that ruins MP.

The game never has been realistic or historically accurate, and isn't intended to be. It is an analytical game not a battle simulator.

There is nothing wrong with trying to take a strong army. It is after all a competitive game. What I'm saying is that every army should have a counterarmy. The game is supposedly designed so that every unit has a counterunit. If that is working properly, an army overloaded with a certain unit will have a counterarmy containing many of the counterunit. As a result, no single army will emerge as the best army.

The plethora of rules being used in RTW multiplayer is due to the poor playblance. Apparently RTW/BI has improved playbalance, but players won't want to give up the rules they've been using for the past year. Past games in the series used less rules which is an indication that those games worked better. Original STW was played without any unit limits. Taking 16 monks in STW was considered cheap, but players like Obake insist that 16 monks could be defeated.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Rules can have three different functions:
- help newbies from picking spam armies that will be defeated in 10 seconds
- making your own army invincible by choosing rules that exactly fits your faction/army
- playing a certain type of standard game where you think the balance between different units is good

- When I set rules it's because of no.1 and no.3, but I also often open 1vs1 games where I tell the visitor, the challenger, to set the rules. In 2vs2, no.1 is important because if someone gets a newbie ally it's ok as long as the newbie ally doesn't bring 20 elephants and get them running amok through his ally's army after 10 seconds. A 2vs2 game with 1 beginner + 1 good player vs 2 good players or experts works fine if the armies brought aren't too bad.
- No.2 also unfortunately happens often, but it's as simple as just leaving the server if you find the rules boring. If the host plays roman there's at least no fear of an unjust game (maybe a boring game, but not an unjust game) because you can always also pick romans.

I find that some of the most enjoyable games are 12.5k no art no ele, or 15k denarii with no art or ele. I also often limit berserkers, but usually to max 5. Even if I don't think it's fun with more than around 2 berserkers, I like to set the limit of the rule a little higher to make the enemy army more unpredictable. What I want is for the rules to not destroy the possible element of surprise and possibility of the enemy bringing an army you couldn't predict, so that you're forced to bring an own army which is balanced and can fight almost any type of enemy army. As a matter of fact, I use almost the exact same army against all opponents, no matter which faction they choose, for the purpose of getting a both fair, fun and challenging game.

[Orda Khan]

The game never has been realistic or historically accurate, and isn't intended to be. It is an analytical game not a battle simulator.

Oh.....Puzz3D disagrees with me........no surprise there then.

represent historical warfare

Well this was my quote, which nowhere mentions historical accuracy.

People that have no lives but only testing the engine for exploits and weaknesses.

....And this is the quote by Hellenes that sums up Total War MP. Notice I say Total War and not Rome Total War. I could go on but there really is no point. When I see factions and units from ancient armies all over the game and given the very description of the game and then someone says it does not represent historical warfare, then obviously I am wasting my time. But I suspect some people, like Hellenes, understand what I am saying

.......Orda

[hellenes]

Oh.....Puzz3D disagrees with me........no surprise there then.

Well this was my quote, which nowhere mentions historical accuracy.

....And this is the quote by Hellenes that sums up Total War MP. Notice I say Total War and not Rome Total War. I could go on but there really is no point. When I see factions and units from ancient armies all over the game and given the very description of the game and then someone says it does not represent historical warfare, then obviously I am wasting my time. But I suspect some people, like Hellenes, understand what I am saying

.......Orda

The game represents WHAT the IGNORANT masses persume as history...
The CA is too lazy or lacks network programmers to understand that single player games die as the internet speed increases... and with the impossibility of an true "AI"...
Maybe they think that MP is the bastard child others dont:
http://www.blizzard.com/patches/


Hellenes

[Puzz3D]

It's the players analytical approach to a game that is supposed to represent historical warfare that ruins MP. I have played many MP games where the approach was to field realistic armies and these were far more enjoyable than the usual

I see no point going into battles with armies that are inferior to those of the opponents. You fielded your "realistic armies" in games where the other players weren't doing that. That ruined MP for you. I don't know where you get the idea that the game is "supposed to represent historical warfare". It doesn't, and even Creative Assembly says it doesn't.

[L'Impresario]

I think that 2 different opinions regarding the perceived problems in TW are expressed here, which are caused:
a) by players
b)by CA/TW as a series/the marketing department etc

If one's objection about playing the game is a), then he can find a group of similarly minded people, or play SP, alternatively wait for another game with a different MP crowd.
If OTOH its b), then one can try to mend the defficiencies of the game, thus modding and rules could come into play, unless the problems are so extreme for the said individual that TW as a series is to be dismissed until it gets a radical overhaul.

I also find rather unprobable that a game could depict any type of actual warfare-be it medieval (most hard) or classical - without important compromises to gameplay. Ofcourse that isn't to say that I'm pleased by the general RTW approach, but VI MP offers quite satisfying gameplay at a tactical level when the "skill" gap between the teams isn't significant, esp. with some mods and certain florin levels.
I remind you that the game wasn't built around a certain amount of money anyway, and each may have his personal preferences.

Commenting something that Yuuki said, I believe that if a group of people is able to deliver solid teamplay, then any army "inferiority" is somewhat diminished, plus more diverse tactics can be performed - ofcourse straighforward moves come to anyone quite naturally, the challenge lies beyond that. And straying from the standard can often prove very surprising for the opponent.

[Orda Khan]

Yeah.....I thought so.
OK I will give it one more try for what it's worth.
Yari Samurai.....historical, certainly not modern.
Man-at-Arms....the same.
Roman Cohorts...the same.
Armies meet on a battlefield and fight a battle, which is warfare. And the game is called Total WAR.

Not once did I state that the game is historically accurate!

What I did state was that games that are treated as battles, with more realistic types of armies ( as opposed to the SPAM armies, from any of the TW games ) are far more enjoyable

.......Orda

[hellenes]

Yeah.....I thought so.
OK I will give it one more try for what it's worth.
Yari Samurai.....historical, certainly not modern.
Man-at-Arms....the same.
Roman Cohorts...the same.
Armies meet on a battlefield and fight a battle, which is warfare. And the game is called Total WAR.

Not once did I state that the game is historically accurate!

What I did state was that games that are treated as battles, with more realistic types of armies ( as opposed to the SPAM armies, from any of the TW games ) are far more enjoyable

.......Orda

Roman cohorts... wearing red, lorica segmenta in 270bc, all looking the same
Head hurlers
Screeching women
Unattackable dogs
Bull$hit warriors
Cheerleaders in mini skirts pretending to be Scythian
"Egyptian" MUMMY ressurected armies
Arcani sadomasochists
Imaginary axemen all over the place
Monks
Priests
Sarmatian funky disco girls
Pink parthians
burning pigs
Spartans in dresses
I think the above explain the behaviour at the RTW mp lobby and the target age group of CA...

Hellenes

[L'Impresario]

What I did state was that games that are treated as battles, with more realistic types of armies ( as opposed to the SPAM armies, from any of the TW games ) are far more enjoyable

Then as I said, your problem doesn't have to do with the actual game itself, but with your concept of realistic armies and spamming. Therefore you wouldn't be against rules (or even mods) that promote those armies, not? I assume that many tourney rulesets have diversified the game, but I don't play RTW since I last tried 1.2 so...
Else the question would be about the mechanics and the engine, and you'd have to blame CA ;)
Naturally there could be a combination of both. But if it's solely about immersion, then you just can't force everyone to play the same. In the end though, tactics -and balanced armies- depend on the R/P/S system effectiveness.

[Orda Khan]

I have tried many mods, L'Impresario, as you know and mods for each of the series. The trouble with mods is no different from the trouble with the original game....things are still disputed. As for rules, I do not believe rules do any good when all they achieve is to make people play a certain way. There have been some big improvements made in RTW, HA for example. We see 'No CC' rules because people can no longer target them with archers. I guess these people were happier with the old 'stop and shoot' HA purely because they were easier to deal with. Of course there are the players who look for flaws and exploit them and I suppose we just have to blame human nature for that. Some form of insecurity that makes people search out the winning way so they can prove themselves online. Some may find this perfectly reasonable but I can only speak for myself when I say I find it rather sad. The time involved could surely be used more positively, such as dealing with real life issues.

It has been suggested that I should find a group of people with a similar outlook to the game. I already have. Furthermore, I have made historical battles which play very well both online and SP. Even human versus AI online in these battles is very enjoyable and a real challenge. The AI is far less predictable than human opponents and not as useless as is being made out. I have no doubt that others would critcise them, for whatever reason but having played them I stick by my previous statement that they are far more enjoyable because of the tactics and team work required. Each of these battles have more 'realistic' armies, which is another point...

If anyone thinks I am an ignoramus when it comes to history then they obviously do not know me or cannot understand what I am saying. Look at some of the issues in the list that Hellenes posted. Romans wearing red and all looking the same. Since each faction has to be readily identifiable on the battlefield, then a predominant colour for each faction has to be the easy option. All looking the same....When you zoom in this is very apparent but each unit is a multiple of the same sprite and to have a few hundred individuals is asking a lot. I remember all those white 'Bedsheet Knights' and 'Fluorescent Byzantines' in MTW but I do not recall much critcism. When it comes to the 'silly' units, they do not have to be picked in MP and can be modded out of SP. Historically out of date armour etc is acceptable IMO since we all know the game is not historically accurate and I would challenge anyone to create a game or mod that is. There are too many unknown or presumed facts about history to even begin to paint a picture of what things 'actually looked like' and sources can be very one sided and biased.

So I still think that the MP game is ruined more by people than any fault in the game, I have not played regular MP for ages because of the fact that people stop it from being what it could be and make it what it is

........Orda

[GrimSta]

Do you reckon you could share those historic battles with the community Orda? i always had a good laugh with the Historic Battles add on pack for RTW origional.

Thanks for the replys guys, it seems that this issue is still a priority among players and i think it does need to be adressed, hell...if CA were to bring out a MP only patch that only affected units for MP and made the game perfecly balanced i would download it, or if they made it so that you could only pick from a selection of pre-defined armies i would also download that, as it would breather life into something that has the potential to be great, but is ruined by Human nature.

[Puzz3D]

So I still think that the MP game is ruined more by people than any fault in the game, I have not played regular MP for ages because of the fact that people stop it from being what it could be and make it what it is

Creative Assembly made the game what it is. They made the game so you can buy whatever units you want and upgrade them however you want. They could have made it so that the host decides the army and everyone in the game gets that army, but they didn't. Players utilize what the game system allows with the objective of winning the battle, and they are not going to elect to take realistic armies because those armies are inferior to the non-realistic ones. If this drives the gameplay towards something I don't like, I just don't play. I don't go around saying these people have ruined the game, and have something wrong with them. They are taking advantage of what the game allows, and to stop it you would have to make a rule unless the game is changed by Creative Assembly so that realistic armies work best, and we already know that CA isn't going to do that.

Creative Assembly worked on improving the playbalance in RTW v1.3 which shows the game has playbalance issues. They still haven't brought the game up to what it could be with the last patch, and they are still foot dragging on a new patch to address outright bugs introduced by RTW/BI let alone playbalance issues. The cantabrian circle formation is overly effective, and some of those hunnic horse archers cannot be beaten in melee by light cav at equal cost. Where is the counter unit if foot archers and light cav are useless against them?

[hellenes]

Historically out of date armour etc is acceptable IMO since we all know the game is not historically accurate and I would challenge anyone to create a game or mod that is. There are too many unknown or presumed facts about history to even begin to paint a picture of what things 'actually looked like' and sources can be very one sided and biased.

While agreening with Puzz3d I have an observation:

1st
If the game is another version of the ignorant masses view on history aka is dumped down fantasy for 12 years olds how one can talk about "historically accurate" armies?
Or also there are too many unknown or presumed facts about army compositions so an army of headhurles, dogs and screeching women is PERFECTLY historically viable.
2nd
What about these guys: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=70 ?

Hellenes

[Orda Khan]

I am well aware of Europa Barbarorum, it is one of the many mods that I have tried already. Would I stake my wages on their mod being a true reflection of history? No.. and the reasons for this I have already stated in the quote you have used.
Why the appearance of some MTW units have not received the same level of criticism is beyond me. I can only put it down to the fact that MTW, as a game, was acceptable to the masses. It seems that RTW was less favourable and has therefore received ( IMO ) undue criticism.

The cantabrian circle formation is overly effective, and some of those hunnic horse archers cannot be beaten in melee by light cav at equal cost. Where is the counter unit if foot archers and light cav are useless against them?

By 'some' I presume you are talking about Hunnic Elite? Do you think Elite units should be beaten by Light Cav? Should there always be a counter unit? Maybe there is a counter tactic instead

.....Orda

[Lord Adherbal]

many of the problems could be removed if there would've been a limit on each units type (or class). Having a few overpowered units (= cannot be beaten cost-effectively) isn't such a big problem if one can only buy 1 or 2 of them. This is also proven by games such as Age of Empires: some units beat anything in 1 on 1, but you cannot get a lot of them because they either take very long to train, or take a lot of population slots (meaning you'll be outnumbered). MTW had the 4+ cost penalty and that did help.

But in RTW there is no such limit, so there is no point in buying weaker units. On top of that the speed difference between light (weaker) and heavy (stronger) infantry/cavalry is so small (and both insanely high) that this is nolonger an advantage worth considering. So why buy any weaker units at all if you can buy a whole army of stronger units ? Even if they have good counter-units that doesnt help much, because unless you know the enemy will buy 20 units of type A before the battle starts - so you can buy 10 or so units that counter type A - it is unlikely you will have enough counter units to deal with such a "spam" army.

So either you make the RPS values so extreme that a counter-unit can deal with 2 or 3 of the units it's supposed to counter, or you have to put an artificial number on each unit type/class. Until then the game will largely be decided by the army you buy, and not by the skill of the players.

[hellenes]

I am well aware of Europa Barbarorum, it is one of the many mods that I have tried already. Would I stake my wages on their mod being a true reflection of history? No.. and the reasons for this I have already stated in the quote you have used.
Why the appearance of some MTW units have not received the same level of criticism is beyond me. I can only put it down to the fact that MTW, as a game, was acceptable to the masses. It seems that RTW was less favourable and has therefore received ( IMO ) undue criticism.


By 'some' I presume you are talking about Hunnic Elite? Do you think Elite units should be beaten by Light Cav? Should there always be a counter unit? Maybe there is a counter tactic instead

.....Orda

Are you a Beta tester for EB?
Lucky you!!!
Ask Khelvan if their mod is a true reflection of history or not...
MTW graphics engine didnt leave much space for criticism, and MTW (compared to Rome) is MORE historically accurate.
Also MTW wasnt acceptable to the masses because before the CA turned the eyecandy on, all the current RTW fanboys were calling MTW a "notsorealtimeuglyriskcrap".
But as I said before how one can talk about:

"It's the players analytical approach to a game that is supposed to represent historical warfare that ruins MP. I have played many MP games where the approach was to field realistic armies and these were far more enjoyable than the usual"

When :

"There are too many unknown or presumed facts about history to even begin to paint a picture of what things 'actually looked like' and sources can be very one sided and biased.

How can we know how "realistic armies" were if we express doubt about historical facts and disregard them? Shouldnt we then persume that armies of dogs, pigs, screeching women and druids existed in full military use and thus use them online?
The vanilla battle of Raphia makes me wonder how far the stupidity and the bending to that stupidity can go.

Hellenes

[Orda Khan]

Ah yes, quotes can be very misrepresentative when only part of the whole quote is used.
The second quote used is part of my reply to Historical Accuracy, which is a far cry from the discussion about SPAM armies and more realistic/believable.
Feel free to bend my words any way you want

.....Orda

[hellenes]

Ah yes, quotes can be very misrepresentative when only part of the whole quote is used.
The second quote used is part of my reply to Historical Accuracy, which is a far cry from the discussion about SPAM armies and more realistic/believable.
Feel free to bend my words any way you want

.....Orda

More realistic/believable?
What constitutes realism if we disregard the authority and authenticity of Historical sources and state that historical accuracy is an utopia thus justifying the promotion and preaching of FALSE misconceptions that diminish and insult the intelligence (or whats left of that) of the audience?
If historical accuracy is impossible due to alleged ambiguity and non creditability of sources then there is NO ground to challenge the so called "SPAM" armies since the evidence at hand is not credible or reliable.
Meaning that, as I said before, an army of Onagers, Urban Cohorts and Praetorian Cavalry has full "realism" backup since there are NO reliable sources to show that this army is product of someones imagination.
But if one accepts the Historical FACTS as preserved today and tries to align the online gameplay to represent the picture that we have in hard evidence and sources about the warfare at that period IMO a decent level of enjoyment/education/and development of tactical thought will be achieved.

Hellenes

[Orda Khan]

Yawn

[M.Cornelius Marcellus]

I see this topics is about rules on MP BI games.
Some say rules are necessary cause the game is unbalanced. Some say that cantabrian, art, ele, berserker are not fair.
My opinion is that BI is the most balanced game of the totalwar series. I mean the one that presents the most number of different factions all competitive.
All factions have strength and weakness.
Lombardi/Burgundi – axes, berserkers, archers, no cantabrian
Eastern empire – plumbatarii, e. archers, no cantabrain
Western empire – plumbatarii, palatine, bad archers, no cantabrian
Sassanid – archers, ele, catafracts, cantabrian, bad infantry
Saxons – hearts, axes, bad archers, no art
Slavs, Hun, Vandals – Good archers and horse achers, cantabrian circle, some good infantry, no art
And so on.
Imo if you play without rules, accepting ele, art, berserker, and so on, the game is various and still balanced. And for this we must thank CA … for this not for other.

Some can spam. And that surely could spoil the game. I saw more than once 10-12 plumbatarii army, and more than once 6-8 eastern archers armies. I saw all elephants too. But usually the spam is tipical of new players and childish persons, because it is not challenging.
So if you are veteran, try to beat it. That’s all.

Marcus