U.S. using phosphorus bombs in Iraq

[Kralizec]

Yes, but Red Harvest seems to suggest that the soldiers themselves could, but deliberately didn't prevent the tragedy. Mistakes were made even at the basest level, true, but trying to blame the whole event on 350 grunts while it was the top that made the most collosol mistakes struck a wrong chord with me.

[Adrian II]

Yes, but Red Harvest seems to suggest that the soldiers themselves could, but deliberately didn't prevent the tragedy. Mistakes were made even at the basest level, true, but trying to blame the whole event on 350 grunts while it was the top that made the most collosol mistakes struck a wrong chord with me.

Yes, but he is right that you should never allow your troops to get stuck in such a situation, unless you have no means of assisting them - means which NATO certainly had at its disposal, more than enough.

[Kralizec]

I was more referring to this...

I didn't say the troops actually killed them. The charge is the one already levelled against them. Just handed them over on a silver platter. It was a morally repugnant thing to do. I would have been ashamed if our own troops had done it. Damned cowards should have fought rather than hiding behind excuses. Yes, I do find them at fault for that. Color it any way you like it, but that is why the blue helmets are not taken seriously by themselves.

[Adrian II]

I was more referring to this...

I know, but he is right that Dutchbat were part of an operation that did hand those people over on a silver platter. Let's face it. The Dutch were the lowest of the UN food chain over there, but it was their food chain. They had volunteered to participate. What were they doing there, pretending to defend tens of thousands of refugees with a few dozen apc's and one, I repeat one, heavy machine gun? And this for more than two years. The Danes, when they moved in, at least brought tanks to defend their own air strip... The Brits and French brought tanks and the French regularly used them, as well as their fighter planes, when necessary.

Think of the killer reputation the Bosnian Serbs had build for themselves during that time. I mean, how naive can you get. It was criminal neglect. That is what I wrote in my paper back then, and I still stand by it.

[Kralizec]

Fair enough.

[scooter_the_shooter]

I know, but he is right that Dutchbat were part of an operation that did hand those people over on a silver platter. Let's face it. The Dutch were the lowest of the UN food chain over there, but it was their food chain. They had volunteered to participate. What were they doing there, pretending to defend tens of thousands of refugees with a few dozen apc's and one, I repeat one, heavy machine gun? And this for more than two years. The Danes, when they moved in, at least brought tanks to defend their own air strip... The Brits and French brought tanks and the French regularly used them, as well as their fighter planes, when necessary.

Think of the killer reputation the Bosnian Serbs had build for themselves during that time. I mean, how naive can you get. It was criminal neglect. That is what I wrote in my paper back then, and I still stand by it.

Reasons like that are why I think the USA and uk should handle most the world police stuff.

[Kagemusha]

Reasons like that are why I think the USA and uk should handle most the world police stuff.

The Ongoing UN peacekeeping operations:

UNIMIS (Sudan)

ONUB (Burundi)

UNOCI (Cote de Ivoire)

UNMIL (Liberia)

MONUC (Congo)

UNMEE (Ethiopia and Eretria)

UNAMSIL (Sierra Leone)

MINURSO (Western Sahara)

MINUSTAH (Haiti)

UNMOGIP (India and Pakistan)

UNIFICYP (Cyprus)

UNOMIG (Georgia)

UNMIK (Kosovo)

UNDOF (Golan heights)

UNIFIL (Lebanon)

UNTSO (Middle East)

Go ahead guys.Deploy.

[Tribesman]

Not if the enemy is using it as a cache for their weapons and ammunition. Not if the enemy is occupying it as a command post. Not if the enemy is using it as a defensive position.

Ah , but they were not were they , and the only flimsy evidence put forward to support the claim was that there were telephones at the hospital . Thatv doesn't stand up to any scrutiny at all does it .
See above.

Yeah , see above
Nope you can detain medical personel who are not in the process of performing their duties in treating medical emergancies.

And what other duties would medical personael be performing in a hospital ?
Only if you captured and disarmed them.
So if I capture and disarm someone you can come along and kill them

Looting is against the rules of the army. You got proof or as I suspect you are just throwing that one out there, because of the looting by Iraqi civilians that was not immediately stopped by the military.
Yeah I just make it up as I go along and throw it out there , but the small problem with that assumption is it ignores the fact that it is detailed in your governmnets reports into actions carried out by forces under coilition authority in Fallujah .
Not if they are being used by the enemy for purposes of storage, command, communications or as strongpoints.

See above
Again got proof of arson -

See above
Got proof of extra-judicial killings that are not being investigated and the individual who did the killing is not being held responsible.
No prosecutions so far .But the allegations are made by your government , I am just repeating them , see above

A violation of the Geneva Conventions - but not a crime.

So breaking conventions governing warfare is not a crime

Well when you look at some of the pictures of the fighting - some are probably dead, some are probably captured, and some got away.

Come on Red you must be able to recall the numbers of foriegners dead or captured , they were spectacularly low


Charges that would of stuck against the actions of the Serbs - not against the UN soldiers.

Red you know the conventions and treaties , they would have stuck against both groups , different charges and different categories .
Using the High Horse of Moral outrage against war in Iraq - but defending the actions of soldiers because of some rule of the United Nations when they did not prevent a massacre of civilians - well is hypocrisy as it is defined.
Yeah right ....hypocracy .... Yep oh look I agreed it was morally repugnent . But unless the Serbs fired at the Dutch they were not allowed to take any action were they .An absolutey crazy situation , but unfortunately it is a fact .

Anyway back toThen your question is irrevelant - since they are both air burst munitions.
Nope , magnesium illumination rounds don't burst , if they did then the parachute wouldn't work would it (unless you are talking about multiple illumination devices in a single projectile) , they stay intact , and the casing is consumed by the heat of the chemical , not an air-burst at all is it
The incident I referred to was an example of of them not being used correctly, they are supposed to burn out while still in the air arn't they , as if they hit the ground they are incendiary arn't they , so incindiary that they burn through sheet metal and you cannot use incendiaries in civilian areas can you .

[Geoffrey S]

Well about Dutchbat & Srebrenica, it's clear that everything went wrong on just about every level. Still even today it's pretty hard to form an image of what the hell happened exactly. I blame our politicians who never did seem to eager to get to the bottom of this.

Oh yeah, I loved the government stepping down several years after the fact; just went to show how spineless they were. Rule number one, never send troops to an area to perform an actual duty if you don't actually have the will to back up their presence with something substantial. The behaviour of the Dutch government in this case was disgusting, something to be ashamed of.

[Dutch_guy]

Oh yeah, I loved the government stepping down several years after the fact; just went to show how spineless they were

Well, it could have been worse, they could have simply denied it all and continue to run the goverment ;) I see what you mean though Geoffrey.

It wasn't one of our better actions...

[Redleg]

Not if the enemy is using it as a cache for their weapons and ammunition. Not if the enemy is occupying it as a command post. Not if the enemy is using it as a defensive position.

Ah , but they were not were they , and the only flimsy evidence put forward to support the claim was that there were telephones at the hospital . Thatv doesn't stand up to any scrutiny at all does it .

Try again and mention specific hospitals - care to guess how many they found cache's in. I found two in a quick google search. So mention specific dates and events.

Unless of course you are talking about the insurgents using sucide bombs in front of hospitals.

See above.

Yeah , see above

LOL - again specific information. Allegations are only allegations.

Nope you can detain medical personel who are not in the process of performing their duties in treating medical emergancies.

And what other duties would medical personael be performing in a hospital ?

Maybe allowing injured people to be kidnapped by insurgents for be found later to be dismembered.

Or they could be doing routine medicial treatments.

Only if you captured and disarmed them.
So if I capture and disarm someone you can come along and kill them

It would seem so especially if you did not inform the chain of command that you left a wounded and disarmed individual behind. The media doesn't get a pass on it either.

Looting is against the rules of the army. You got proof or as I suspect you are just throwing that one out there, because of the looting by Iraqi civilians that was not immediately stopped by the military.
Yeah I just make it up as I go along and throw it out there , but the small problem with that assumption is it ignores the fact that it is detailed in your governmnets reports into actions carried out by forces under coilition authority in Fallujah .

No assumption on my part - you alledged looting - find the report - read the report and see if the soldiers who committed looting were indentified and held responsible for their violation of the code of conduct. Until then you made a generalization - which again means you just threw it out there. Check to see what it actually states and who it states the looters are. Care to guess?

Not if they are being used by the enemy for purposes of storage, command, communications or as strongpoints.

See above
Again got proof of arson -

See above

Not good enough Tribesman your throwing out accusations wanting it to be taken as fact - no supporting evidence or even links. You do the research you present the facts - not just your verbalization of rethoric.

Got proof of extra-judicial killings that are not being investigated and the individual who did the killing is not being held responsible.
No prosecutions so far .But the allegations are made by your government , I am just repeating them , see above

There are three that I know of - again go back and research the facts - you might be suprised since several prosecutions have happened. Here is just one of them.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=281084

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar..._iraqis_death/

FORT HOOD, Texas -- An Army soldier has been cleared of killing an unarmed Iraqi he said he shot to save a fellow soldier. Staff Sgt. Shane Werst, 32, was acquitted Thursday by a jury of four soldiers and two officers. He had faced a maximum of life in prison without parole for the premeditated murder charge.

Again an allegation of no prosecutions is unfounded - since at least one has been put on trail and then acquitted.

A violation of the Geneva Conventions - but not a crime.

So breaking conventions governing warfare is not a crime

Try again - I know its confusing for you.

Well when you look at some of the pictures of the fighting - some are probably dead, some are probably captured, and some got away.

Come on Red you must be able to recall the numbers of foriegners dead or captured , they were spectacularly low

which indicates that there precentage is low - however there were some now were there not.

Charges that would of stuck against the actions of the Serbs - not against the UN soldiers.

Red you know the conventions and treaties , they would have stuck against both groups , different charges and different categories .

The Dutch soldiers acting in defense of the civilians would of not been prosecuted in the United States - only in Europe would they be prosecuted for defending unarmed civilians.

Using the High Horse of Moral outrage against war in Iraq - but defending the actions of soldiers because of some rule of the United Nations when they did not prevent a massacre of civilians - well is hypocrisy as it is defined.
Yeah right ....hypocracy .... Yep oh look I agreed it was morally repugnent . But unless the Serbs fired at the Dutch they were not allowed to take any action were they .An absolutey crazy situation , but unfortunately it is a fact .

You can't have it both ways Tribesman the hypocrisy is there.

Anyway back toThen your question is irrevelant - since they are both air burst munitions.
Nope , magnesium illumination rounds don't burst , if they did then the parachute wouldn't work would it (unless you are talking about multiple illumination devices in a single projectile) , they stay intact , and the casing is consumed by the heat of the chemical , not an air-burst at all is it
The incident I referred to was an example of of them not being used correctly, they are supposed to burn out while still in the air arn't they , as if they hit the ground they are incendiary arn't they , so incindiary that they burn through sheet metal and you cannot use incendiaries in civilian areas can you .

Magnesium illumination rounds don't burst - that is new to me since part of the observation is to observe the burst of the explosive that ignites the illumination round. So you can time how long the illumination will last, and to adjust the height of burst.

Care to guess how many of them I have seen used correctly that fall to the ground and burn anyway?

Again you attempt at sarcasm in regards to illumination rounds show only how little you know about them.

And illumination can be shot over civilian areas because the munition intent is for illumination not causing fires.

[Papewaio]

Charges that would of stuck against the actions of the Serbs - not against the UN soldiers.

Red you know the conventions and treaties , they would have stuck against both groups , different charges and different categories .
Using the High Horse of Moral outrage against war in Iraq - but defending the actions of soldiers because of some rule of the United Nations when they did not prevent a massacre of civilians - well is hypocrisy as it is defined.
Yeah right ....hypocracy .... Yep oh look I agreed it was morally repugnent . But unless the Serbs fired at the Dutch they were not allowed to take any action were they .An absolutey crazy situation , but unfortunately it is a fact .

Actually the Dutch action as far as IMDHO comes under aiding the crime. There is also no excuse that they were ordered not to do anything, if you can see a crime you have to react to it.

The Dutch if they wanted to could have protected the villagers and not let them go. Then the Serbs would have had to escalate the situation and use force to get them. The Dutch instead watched on. To use burecracy as an excuse is every bit as craven as those in WWII who claimed helping at the deathcamps was an order... war crimes are not mitigated by being ordered to do something, nor are they mitigated by being told to watch when you have the ability to counteract that.

In the end of the day the Dutch let the people they were supposed to be protecting get massacred.

The Americans at Fallujah attacked an enemy held city. As I recall incendiary devices were used against the enemy held cities in WWII.

One attacked the enemy the other aided them.

[Adrian II]

The Dutch if they wanted to could have protected the villagers and not let them go.

You mean in July of 1995, given the circumstances on the ground? Amazing. Surely you have studied the case before you passed judgement, so maybe you can elaborate.

You are no doubt aware that Dutchbat was caught between two fires. There were several thousand armed Bosnian soldiers and irregulars among the 'refugees' in Srebrenica. They had been roaming and plundering the surrounding area for several years, using the enclave as a safe haven. The 350 Dutch couldn't disarm them or keep them in, let alone keep the Bosnian Serb army out when they came to get those Bosnians in July of 1995. Many of the victims who were deported and shot by the Serbs were Bosnian soldiers. Others fought their way out and re-enlisted in Sarajevo, even though they were listed as 'missing' by the United Nations.

[Papewaio]

I have heard the story from 3 sides, Dutch, Bosnian and Serb... not surprising as we have all 3 groups in large numbers in Aus and they had relatives from all 3 groups in the situation...it is really one of those situations where everyone stuffed up...

To be precise I am annoyed with the Governement/Nato/UNs stance on a lot of missions where the peacekeepers get to stand by and watch. It has happened in Africa several times to.

Either don't deploy them or use them with enough support. Everytime they have had to stand on the sideline they have diluted the crediability of the UN or any other faction as a peacekeeper. No country is ever going to take the UN or Nato seriously if everytime they show up they don't act.

[Adrian II]

Either don't deploy them or use them with enough support.

Indeed. And never, ever under UN command.

[Papewaio]

Unless the UN was lead by penguins...

[Brenus]

“Yes, I do. Siege them, starve them, and if that doesn't get them out, then blast them to oblivion. Strategic war 101.”
Hah, we are getting nasty, are we? By the way, it is exactly what the Serbs did to Sarajevo and all agreed it was a war crime, at this time. You encircled a town, deprived them from food and water, stop humanitarian help and shell them from above: Falluja or Sarajevo?
“Just handed them over on a silver platter”: You have no idea what was happening in Bosnia, do you? First, the pocket wasn’t without defence (for your information, the Muslim Officer in charge of Srebrenica is actually in The Hague for war crimes against the Serbs). The Dutch wouldn’t and couldn’t help the fall of the town, as they couldn’t stop Muslim Offensive from Srebrenica against Serbs village (the town was all except disarmed). They were not equipped for the fight. And the American forces which let the Croats to ethnically cleansing the Knin area can’t really give moral lessons, nor the French, the British who did the same. The only one who retained a little bit of honour are the Canadians…
Yes, but Red Harvest seems to suggest that the soldiers themselves could, but deliberately didn't prevent the tragedy: No, they couldn’t. I was there when the first offensive, the one stopped by Morillon. The Serbs were thirsty for revenge because what happened (and reason why the Muslim officer is in The Hague). Slaughter of entire villages, rapes etc. Do you know how the Serbs held in Srebrenic were treated by the Muslim? I do.
And honestly, the Serbs evacuated the young children and women. Who could have suppose they would killed thousands men and teenagers? Not me, and I was there (before), not at the time...
Reasons like that are why I think the USA and uk should handle most the world police stuff: Right, you see the result in Iraq…

[Adrian II]

I was there when the first offensive, the one stopped by Morillon.

Respect. Morillon was quite a character. I was there eight months before the surrender when the talk was all about Ukrainians replacing Dutchbat. When I asked a Ukrainian officer when this would happen, he grinned and said 'Never'. The Ukrainians were only in it for the money, they could hardly afford to pay for decent uniforms... Man, that whole operation was one big fubar.

[Tribesman]

Check to see what it actually states and who it states the looters are. Care to guess?

Did I say they were American soldiers Red

Not good enough Tribesman your throwing out accusations wanting it to be taken as fact
Do you doubt it ? You know the report to which I refer do you not .

There are three that I know of - again go back and research the facts - you might be suprised since several prosecutions have happened. Here is just one of them.

Again you assume that I was talking about American soldiers Red .

but the small problem with that assumption is it ignores the fact that it is detailed in your governmnets reports into actions carried out by forces under coilition authority in Fallujah .

See Red , no menton of US forces is there
Perhaps why thay is why it featured so prominently in your governments report on human rights abuses in Iraq , though of course that only covers actions by your Iraqi allies/terrorists taking part in the coilition led operation .

Ah even more specific in that one wasn't it

[Redleg]

Check to see what it actually states and who it states the looters are. Care to guess?

Did I say they were American soldiers Red

LOL - I stated soldiers refering to American Soldiers since we were talking about actions of the United States Military. A nice attempt to circumvent the discussion. Your attempting to be clever - but again provide spefic information and instances of what you believe is wrong doing by collation soldiers if you wish - or in the exact method of which you stated this one - refering to my discussion about the United States Military.

Assaulting and occupying hospitals , thats a war crime isn't it , bombing hospitals , thats a war crime as well isn't it , detaining medical personel thats another , killing wounded fighters who have been captured and disarmed thats one more , denying access to Red cross/crescent officials , oh they just keep piling up don't they , wanton destruction of non-military targets , looting , arson , extra-judicial killings .
But of course it had to be done as Fallujah was full of foriegn illegal combatants and its clearance would remove this threat and deal a crushing blow to the insurgency .

Ah , but they were not were they , and the only flimsy evidence put forward to support the claim was that there were telephones at the hospital . Thatv doesn't stand up to any scrutiny at all does it .

So a good attempt to re-direct but I am not buying it. Speak in spefics there Tribesman not in generalalities unless of course you wish to become a politican.

Not good enough Tribesman your throwing out accusations wanting it to be taken as fact
Do you doubt it ? You know the report to which I refer do you not .

Ones that mention insurgents and civilians looting. Yep read that one.

There are three that I know of - again go back and research the facts - you might be suprised since several prosecutions have happened. Here is just one of them.

Again you assume that I was talking about American soldiers Red .

Again nice attempt at re-direction - but not buying it. Because even if your attempting to state all collation soldiers - the already mentioned trail shows that you are still incorrect.

but the small problem with that assumption is it ignores the fact that it is detailed in your governmnets reports into actions carried out by forces under coilition authority in Fallujah .

See Red , no menton of US forces is there

Again nice attempt - but not good enough - collation forces also implies the military of the United States. You stated no prosecutions - and again you are incorrect, even when you attempt to speak in generalities he reality of one case going to court shows that you are again incorrect. Your attempting to paint with to board of a brush and you used the wrong stroke and color.

Perhaps why thay is why it featured so prominently in your governments report on human rights abuses in Iraq , though of course that only covers actions by your Iraqi allies/terrorists taking part in the coilition led operation .

Ah even more specific in that one wasn't it

[/quote]

Possibly the only thing you got close to being right on with your attempt at painting with a broad brush stroke. Sometimes you get lucky when trying to cover everything in one statement.

[bmolsson]

You really don't know what an illumination round is do you?

Everyone knows that it's a special bullet used to shoot civilians with so they get enlightened.......

[Tribesman]

Ones that mention insurgents and civilians looting. Yep read that one.

Just re read it Red , no mention of insurgents looting at all in there .
Try again .
Again nice attempt at re-direction - but not buying it. Because even if your attempting to state all collation soldiers - the already mentioned trail shows that you are still incorrect.

But I didn't say all did I , but the fact is the report says No trials took place , and there are no publicly implemented measures being taken to prevent such incidents recurring .

Magnesium illumination rounds don't burst
no they don't do they . word games again Red

[Slyspy]

You mean in July of 1995, given the circumstances on the ground? Amazing. Surely you have studied the case before you passed judgement, so maybe you can elaborate.

You are no doubt aware that Dutchbat was caught between two fires. There were several thousand armed Bosnian soldiers and irregulars among the 'refugees' in Srebrenica. They had been roaming and plundering the surrounding area for several years, using the enclave as a safe haven. The 350 Dutch couldn't disarm them or keep them in, let alone keep the Bosnian Serb army out when they came to get those Bosnians in July of 1995. Many of the victims who were deported and shot by the Serbs were Bosnian soldiers. Others fought their way out and re-enlisted in Sarajevo, even though they were listed as 'missing' by the United Nations.

The Dutch troops on the ground failed to do their duty, just as the whole command structure had failed in its duty to the Dutch.

[Redleg]

Ones that mention insurgents and civilians looting. Yep read that one.

Just re read it Red , no mention of insurgents looting at all in there .
Try again .

Provide the link - I guess you didn't catch the clue in the above sentence. Care to guess how many reports there is. One comes out weekly, and then there is the daily briefs. And yes there is even ones that state that insurgents have looted.

Again nice attempt at re-direction - but not buying it. Because even if your attempting to state all collation soldiers - the already mentioned trail shows that you are still incorrect.

But I didn't say all did I , but the fact is the report says No trials took place , and there are no publicly implemented measures being taken to prevent such incidents recurring .

Again you are incorrect - both in spefic points and in generalizations. You are not going to get out of making such a generalization by saying you didn't say that - here it is again in your own words.

thats a big IF isn't it , there are lots of big IFs about the assault on Fallujah and war crimes aren't there .
Perhaps why thay is why it featured so prominently in your governments report on human rights abuses in Iraq , though of course that only covers actions by your Iraqi allies/terrorists taking part in the coilition led operation .
Assaulting and occupying hospitals , thats a war crime isn't it , bombing hospitals , thats a war crime as well isn't it , detaining medical personel thats another , killing wounded fighters who have been captured and disarmed thats one more , denying access to Red cross/crescent officials , oh they just keep piling up don't they , wanton destruction of non-military targets , looting , arson , extra-judicial killings .
But of course it had to be done as Fallujah was full of foriegn illegal combatants and its clearance would remove this threat and deal a crushing blow to the insurgency .
So where were all the foriegn fighters ? and why is there still an insurgency ?

Now face it Tribesman you made an incorrect generalization because you attempted this response when you knew I was talking about the United States Military.

But whatever. You made the generalizations above - but provide no proof of such. You put them in two seperate paragraphs, which indicates that you were seperated one statement from the other. One is specific about human rights violations, the other paragraph is generalization about combat operations. The thread is about the United States actions in Fallujah.

Very good, speak in generalizations and deny everything - your sounding more and more like a politician in this one every time.

Magnesium illumination rounds don't burst
no they don't do they . word games again Red[/QUOTE]

LOL you missed the sarcasm again - the rounds do burst - they base plate of the round is blown by the time fuze on the canister, the parachute drags it out of the canister along with the spin of the canister. The magnesium then ignites with a flash which looks to the human eye very much like a burst. Which is why when the observers report that they see the illumation they report over the radio the command "Burst" so that the FDC can begin to time the illumination time.

Word games - upon word games. You made a generalization and you just don't want to admit to it.

[Major Robert Dump]

I think I saw David Koresh in the movie. No, wait, those were glitches in the video camera specific of that model. sorry.

[Strike For The South]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8548707.stm

[Myrddraal]

Horrible stuff. Saw it on the TV news, not for the squeamish. Poor kids.

[Kagemusha]

More "great" benefits of depleted uranium ordinance?

[CountArach]

More "great" benefits of depleted uranium ordinance?

It should be a war crime.

Reminds me of a quote from Rep Jim McDermott (Quoted in Anti-Flag's song, Depleted Uranium Is A Warcrime) about talking to doctors whilst on a tour of Iraq:
"The doctor said, 'Women at the time of birth don't ask if it's a boy or a girl, they ask: Is it normal?'"

[Aemilius Paulus]

Ha, you people feel sorry for the Iraqis, but for once, the poor American soldiers may deserve slightly more, as they actually ride around in tanks filled with depleted uranium, as a part of their sandwich-like 3rd generation Chobham armour.