Standing up for your beleifs

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Is it important to stand up for what you beleive in, or a cause greater than yourself, even if it means your life?

You know what I voted.

[solypsist]

i see you are 15 years old. that explains a thread like this, where everything is so black and white.

get some more life experience, where people depend on you for their lives or livelihood, and see how much gray area there is, and then ask yourself again in 15 years.

[Reverend Joe]

Hell, I'm 19, and I already see the gray.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I mean fundementally, which is more important.

[AntiochusIII]

I mean fundementally, which is more important.

Does that make a difference? Fundamentally we are all creatures of survival. Ideals be damned; you could only hold on to your ideals with the cost of your life if your life is that miserable it's more worthy to die than live...or you are brainwashed.

This does not count those whose mental condition is not "normal," though.

So, no.

[Kanamori]

I mean fundementally, which is more important.

There is no "fundamental" since it depends on the situation.

[PanzerJaeger]

get some more life experience, where people depend on you for their lives or livelihood, and see how much gray area there is, and then ask yourself again in 15 years.

Great men do not see grey in terms of fundamental beliefs, no matter their age.

It is important that people stand up for what is right, not pussyfoot around, because if no one does, then every one suffers.

[solypsist]

been there, done that with fundamental beliefs. you can have it.

I mean fundementally, which is more important.

[Devastatin Dave]

soly, not picking on you, but is there a belief that you hold that you would consider giving your life for?

[Togakure]

i see you are 15 years old. that explains a thread like this, where everything is so black and white.

get some more life experience, where people depend on you for their lives or livelihood, and see how much gray area there is, and then ask yourself again in 15 years.

What is gray, but black and white in motion?

My answer is: it depends.

This lil kid walked up to a really tall counselor at summer camp who was gettin' a drink from the fountain. He said with a grin, "Hey how's the weather up there?" The almighty counselor spat a mouthful into the kid's face and said, "It's raining. Looks like you need an umbrella."

Get up, stand up ... stand up for your rights! Wa-wo-wo-whoa ...

[AntiochusIII]

What is gray, but black and white in motion?

Ah, but what is white but the many rainbow colours in motion? And what is black but the lack of light? What is ignorance? White because it's supposed to be pure, or black because it lacks the light? What are faith and beliefs? Light or denial of light? Why stand up for one's beliefs if one's self does not understand the beliefs he's holding?

Just playing with you and spamming.

I believe that Coke Cola tastes better then Pepsi... I am not going to go out on a limb and die for that particular belief... it is a definite gray choice.

But...but...if you put the lime in the co(conut)ke? Will some die for, or against that?

It depends on the belief, situation and the cost benefit.

My answer is: it depends.

However, Kaiser clearly states that "standing up for your own beliefs" in this thread include forfeiting one's life:

Is it important to stand up for what you beleive in, or a cause greater than yourself, even if it means your life?

Hence my lack of hesitation to answer no. I'm more realistic than that.

[Byzantine Prince]

No standing up for your beliefs is not good. I prefer to just bend over and let the beliefs speak for themselves.

[bmolsson]

No standing up for your beliefs is not good. I prefer to just bend over and let the beliefs speak for themselves.

Are you French ???

[GoreBag]

I'm more concerned, for the most part, about whether or not someone else is going to kill me for my beliefs. I agree that it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees, but it is hardly a great thing to be fatalistically tied to your own ignorance.

[Togakure]

...
However, Kaiser clearly states that "standing up for your own beliefs" in this thread include forfeiting one's life:Hence my lack of hesitation to answer no. I'm more realistic than that.

Ah, but I would gladly forfeit my life in order to protect a loved one, so there are some beliefs I hold for which I would, indeed, forfeit my life. Crazy lil thing called Love.



Gah, BP ... I ain't gonna nitpick with you about that. You know damn well what I was driving at.
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VVVVVVVVVVVV

[Byzantine Prince]

Ah, but I would gladly forfeit my life in order to protect a loved one, so there are some beliefs I hold for which I would, indeed, forfeit my life. Crazy lil thing called Love.

Yeah but life is pretty worthless. Hell we should make it blatant and start selling people's lives for oil.

Love is not a belief.

[Adrian II]

i see you are 15 years old. that explains a thread like this, where everything is so black and white.

get some more life experience, where people depend on you for their lives or livelihood, and see how much gray area there is, and then ask yourself again in 15 years.

Aye.

Then add another fifteen, Kaiser of Arabia; by that time you will have difficulty seeing anything else but grey. That's when the real men are separated from the sheep. No pun intended.

[Tachikaze]

I can't think of a situation where my beliefs would be served by giving my life.

[_Martyr_]

To quote Wilfred Owen:

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares2 we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest3 began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots4
Of tired, outstripped5 Five-Nines6 that dropped behind.

Gas!7 Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets8 just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime9 . . .
Dim, through the misty panes10 and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering,11 choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud12
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest13
To children ardent14 for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.15

[Ser Clegane]

Standing up?

Yes

But not simply for a "belief" but for an actual "purpose" if necessary.

People who were willing to die and kill for a "belief" without questioning the belief and its purpose have probably caused more grief and terror than those who "pussyfoot around".

[yesdachi]

Just by saying you have a belief is a small demonstration of standing up for it.

I don’t know the best way to word it but I see people standing up for their beliefs all the time, even here at the org. it doesn’t take a declaration and a life or death situation to stand up for ones belief. There have been enough passionate discussions about things I would call peoples beliefs here in the backroom to say most people do stand up for their beliefs. Think of topics like racism, gun control, abortion, and favorite chocolate (frontroom topic but it applies ). I have even seen people who seem to be using “gray” as an excuse not to give a definitive answer be pretty stand up when it comes to a perceived belief.

I say YES, stand up for your beliefs. But know when to compromise (coke better than pepsi? Afraid not, but I’m not going to war over it ).

[Tribesman]

Great men do not see grey in terms of fundamental beliefs, no matter their age.
Hmmm ....wasn't that the funny Austrian fella with a dodgy moustache that said that

[Divinus Arma]

Aye.

Then add another fifteen, Kaiser of Arabia; by that time you will have difficulty seeing anything else but grey. That's when the real men are separated from the sheep. No pun intended.

Seems like some people are hiding behind their age. I see a primary color in this thread and it ain't red or blue.

edit: And BTW, why are some of you folks watering down this topic with "beliefs" about coke vs pepsi and other BS. Nobody is going to kill or die over that. I logically assume PJ means the important things. Just like you liberals "stand up" for your belief that Bush is a Liar. Fine. Go "stand up" when you vote. I also notice that the liberals are the ones arguing against standing up for principle.

When Rosa Parks refused to get her butt to the back of the bus, what would you call that? If it were any of you, then you would move for whitey 'cause it's to much trouble. After all "that's a grey area".

When the US invaded France to kick out the Nazis, what was that? We'd be speaking German if you guys were drafted. Oh wait, these are the same people that ran like hell to canada during 'Nam too.


I am actually sick reading some of these comments. Sick.

edit2: Thank God for people like Redleg, Gawain, Devastation Dave, and myself. Just a few who are willing to give it all up so that you can actually even have this debate.

[Adrian II]

Seems like some people are hiding behind their age. I see a primary color in this thread and it ain't red or blue.

Green!

[Divinus Arma]

Green!

Is that the best answer you can give? Can't debate on a topic like "moral courage" can you?


You people mean to tell me that if faced with the death of yourself or your family, you would rather see your family killed?

I am aware that this is a primal argument, but amplify it to a broader meaning.

Your family.

Your neighborhood.

Your community.

Your liberty and quality of life.

Your country- your only voice in changing law.

Your culture.

Are these not worth fighting, killing and dieing for if need be?


Would you not fight and kill another to see to it that your children can be raised without daily fear of imminent death? And if so, what makes your children so special? Why not fight so that others' children may be raised without imminent fear of death?

[scooter_the_shooter]

I think most of the people who do great things for a cause, Are not really thinking about the cause at all.

Example

The medic who ran across the street twice in Mogadishu to save a ranger. I doubt he was thinking."WOW now we can feed the hungry somalis, and bring jeffersonian democracy to africa!"

[Geoffrey S]

Thank God for people like Redleg, Gawain, Devastation Dave, and myself. Just a few who are willing to give it all up so that you can actually even have this debate.

The age-old 'us military people' elitist mentality? I do respect what you guys do, believe me, but don't belittle the rest for not being in the military.

[Prodigal]

see how much gray area there is

An interesting piece of fiction which looks at the "grey area" subject, Dreams of Scipio by Iain Pears.

And a very big, Hear, Hear to the Owen poem.

[Divinus Arma]

i see you are 15 years old. that explains a thread like this, where everything is so black and white.

get some more life experience, where people depend on you for their lives or livelihood, and see how much gray area there is, and then ask yourself again in 15 years.

I have a family and a mortgage and all the trappings of a middle class life.

It really is this black and white.


And my answer is yes. That's why I'm in the military. That's why I work in Law Enforcement.

And that's why my wife is a servant of this country and our community as she waits for the call that she knows she will one day get.

Wars are not fought only by childless men, remember?


You have to sacrifice to keep this fragile security we all take for granted. Ask anybody who has been to a warzone. Western society never appears the same again one you come back.