Bush honors a worthless American...

[Devastatin Dave]

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/1....f7izopnr.html
Unbelievable he put that medal around that piece of poop draft dodgers neck. Shameful...

[Hurin_Rules]

Bush got a medal for dodging the draft?

Oh, you mean Muhammad Ali, who, being poor and black, couldn't avoid the draft in the same way Bush did--by having daddy appoint him to the air national guard.

If you could just clarify: are draft dodgers only 'pieces of s**t' if they're poor and black, or can the rich and white be included?

If so, then that picture shows us two of a kind.

[Crazed Rabbit]

If you could just clarify: are draft dodgers only 'pieces of s**t' if they're poor and black, or can the rich and white be included?

I didn't know you considered Clinton a POS.

Crazed Rabbit

[Devastatin Dave]

Bush got a medal for dodging the draft?

Oh, you mean Muhammad Ali, who, being poor and black, couldn't avoid the draft in the same way Bush did--by having daddy appoint him to the air national guard.

If you could just clarify: are draft dodgers only 'pieces of s**t' if they're poor and black, or can the rich and white be included?

If so, then that picture shows us two of a kind.

Bush actually served. Cassius Clay never served. Get your facts straight before posting ignorant responses. Poor and black, LOL, old Cassius wasn't exactly poor when he got his orders. Duhhhh.

[ichi]

What's the difference between Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Jane Fonda?





Jane actually went to Vietnam

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Bush got a medal for dodging the draft?

Oh, you mean Muhammad Ali, who, being poor and black, couldn't avoid the draft in the same way Bush did--by having daddy appoint him to the air national guard.

If you could just clarify: are draft dodgers only 'pieces of s**t' if they're poor and black, or can the rich and white be included?

If so, then that picture shows us two of a kind.

Unlike Dave, I have no beef with Ali (Clay). He didn't dodge the draft, he out-and-out refused and took a big financial hit in consequence and very nearly did time in jail as well. While I disagree with his choice, he had the courage of his convictions and took his lumps. Also, Ali was black but was not -- until he made his decision -- poor. His career was quite successful at that time (though he was not brought up in an affluent family).

I also disagree with you about Bush's service in the guard. Yes, when he joined he was aware that guard units rarely deployed. Yes, he was selected for the guard from a fairly large pool of applicants and some measure of favoritism (asked for or not) cannot be ruled out. However, he put on the uniform and if his unit got deployed he would have gone -- and there were lots of folks who took that same risk during the Vietnam war. Doesn't win bonus points from me, but nor do I assume it to be poor service.

You are also being unfair to DevDave here. Any -- even cursory -- reading of his posts would clearly demonstrate that DD would loathe anybody who he viewed to be a draft dodger -- nothing in his track record would let you credibly suggest that his brand of super-patriotism is influenced by race or ethnicity. You have backhandedly implied that he is a racist, which is unwarranted and should be a Bozo no-no.

[Hurin_Rules]

Bush actually served. Cassius Clay never served. Get your facts straight before posting ignorant responses.

Bush actually served in Vietnam? Wow, that's news to me.

Get your facts straight indeed.

No, I wasn't accusing Dave of being a racist. But now that I think of it, anyone who labels 'worthless' a man who is so respected and has done so much for the black community in America clearly is, if not racist, then very, very ignorant.

BTW, Ali did grow up poor, so please don't further accuse me of ignorance:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:B...r+family&hl=en

[Crazed Rabbit]

Bush actually served in Vietnam? Wow, that's news to me.

Get your facts straight indeed.

Ever heard of a little something called the Air Force national Guard?

And did DD say 'In vietnam', or did you add that there to add a wee, flaky little bit of credence to your argument?

Crazed Rabbit

[Hurin_Rules]

And did DD say 'In vietnam', or did you add that there to add a wee, flaky little bit of credence to your argument?

I didn't 'add' it at all. We're talking about the draft for the Vietnam war. If you want to parse to rescue the honour of a man who used his family connections to get out of having to fight, to accuse a man who actually stood up for his convictions, and to defend a president who critiqued a true veteran (John Kerry) to score cheap political points, then fine; but please get off your high horse when you do so.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

BTW, Ali did grow up poor, so please don't further accuse me of ignorance:

I was aware that Ali was not brought up in affluent surroundings, and certainly never summered at Kennebunkport. My point was that he had achieved quite a deal of economic success as a fighter prior to his decision not to serve. He was giving up a lot and knew it, and knew quite well that his chance of serving in combat was almost nil -- Joe Louis' army service was noted to him -- but still refused to serve.

[solypsist]

when I read, "Bush honors a worthless American... " and then saw the word "medal," I thought this was an old link revived.

[Red Harvest]

What's the difference between Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Jane Fonda?





Jane actually went to Vietnam

Good one.

[Ronin]

Ever heard of a little something called the Air Force national Guard?

ever heard of something called "cushy little assignment his rich daddy got him so he could get out of going to nam"?

[Leet Eriksson]

Just becuase he dodged the draft he is worthless?

Who knows what could have happened if he went there, he could have died and then you'd have one less american legend.

[Beirut]

And all this time I thought individuality, the dissenting opinion, and standing up for one's beliefs especially when those beliefs are unpopular, were the hallmarks of being a true American.

Who would have known it was really toeing the line, remaining silent, and subverting one's self to authority.

[Aurelian]

Unbelievable he put that medal around that piece of poop draft dodgers neck. Shameful...

Well, it's not like Muhammed Ali was some little beeotch who ran away because he was too scared to fight. After all, his job was getting punched in the head repeatedly by people like George Foreman.

His not going to Vietnam was on principle, and he paid for it with what probably would have been the best years of his career. If, despite his opposition to the war, he'd entered the military and let them use him as a poster-boy in Life magazine, than that would have been shameful.

Hell, even President Johnson was telling people privately that the war wasn't winnable, so what was really the point of anybody going over there? If the answer to that is "when your country tells you to go, you go"... well, you either go or you are prepared to accept the consequences of your actions, which he was.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Ali is no draft dodger. He is a man of principles. I hated to see him become a Muslim but at least he stood up for what he believed right or wrong. I consider him a great american if a bit misquided. Ali is a MAN.

[DemonArchangel]

Ali is no draft dodger. He is a man of principles. I hated to see him become a Muslim but at least he stood up for what he believed right or wrong. I consider him a great american if a bit misquided. Ali is a MAN.

Seconded.

[GoreBag]

Sure, give him a medal. I have no problems with draft-dodgers, whether or not you consider Ali one.

[Papewaio]

Ali was a Conscientious Objector not a draft dodger. One follows his principles the other looks after his skin.

In 1971, nearly five years after it began, Ali's legal battle finally culminated with a unanimous decision by the United States Supreme Court overturning his draft conviction.

So the Supreme Court also did not consider him a draft dodger.

[Byzantine Prince]

War is pointless. Honour for war is a joke that we all like to pretend is serious occasion to be savoured.

[Strike For The South]

War is pointless. Honour for war is a joke that we all like to pretend is serious occasion to be savoured.

Wow somebody needs a reality check. What about World War2 or the first Iraq war or the American civil war. I would take any man who fought in those wars of a self pitying self loathing pessimistic jack ass like yourself any day off the week

[Byzantine Prince]

Wow somebody needs a reality check. What about World War2 or the first Iraq war or the American civil war. I would take any man who fought in those wars of a self pitying self loathing pessimistic jack ass like yourself any day off the week

As I said, we ALL like to PRETEND to find honour in war.

[Strike For The South]

Like I said somebody needs to get a reality check. Its an honor to serve and protect people who cant protect themselves

[Devastatin Dave]

Ali still doesn't have the honor to lick the sweat of my... nevermind, one PM from the mods tonight is enough!!!

[Kaiser of Arabia]

What's the difference between Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Jane Fonda?





Jane actually went to Vietnam

'Cept she aided the Viet Cong...traitor.

[Slyspy]

Lets not dig that old chesnut up again. It was a joke. Remember those? Sometimes, though not often, we see them here.

Kudos to Ali.

[Papewaio]

Ali still doesn't have the honor to lick the sweat of my... nevermind, one PM from the mods tonight is enough!!!

Honour is related to integrity. Saying one thing and doing another is unhonourable. Ali acted with integrity, he was consistent. He stood up and stated what he believed in and acted in the same manner.

[Roark]

Yeah, I fail to see how Ali is worthless because he had moral objections to fighting in the Vietnam war...

Childish.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

As I noted above, I am not the detractor of Ali that DevDave is. However, when does appropriate dissent cross the line and become inappropriate?

Many who disagreed with the War did serve, some even serving unarmed in combat as medics.

To disagree, to dissent, to lobby for change are all acceptable elements of the democratic process. Ali's refusal to serve, however, broke the law -- a law promulgated by the duly elected government representatives of that same republic. If the individual has no right to petition the government for change, then the spectre of tyranny has arisen -- yet if the individual is free to ignore the duly promulgated constraints/responsibilities expected of a member of that society, then we have the spectre of anarchy and chaos. While I may not believe Ali to be dishorourable, I do believe he was wrong.