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Thread: Slouching Toward Pampering the Enemy

  1. #1
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Slouching Toward Pampering the Enemy




    November 08, 2005, 6:19 p.m.
    Slouching Toward Pampering the Enemy
    Military tribunals are nothing new.



    I would not have thought that four short years after 9/11, two branches of the federal government would be taking what are historically extraordinary measures to grant unprecedented due-process rights to unlawful enemy combatants held overseas. In 1950, in Johnson v. Eisentrager, the Supreme Court held it did not have the authority to take up a challenge by 21 German nationals held in China, who were tried and convicted by U.S. military tribunals. In 2004, in Rasul v. Bush, the Court reversed course and held that U.S. civilian courts would be open to foreign enemy combatants held overseas. I strongly criticized that decision at the time. And next March, the Court will decide whether the president has the authority to set up military tribunals in a case involving Salim Ahmed Hamdan, an al Qaeda member close to Osama bin Laden. Military tribunals have a long tradition in this country.




    It seems an odd priority to me to be revisiting this now, when the enemy has succeeded where others had failed (by killing nearly 3,000 U.S. citizens on U.S. soil, and threatening to do far worse), and these tribunals have been used by presidents far more aggressively for over two centuries. Indeed, since the Supreme Court's Rasul decision, lower courts have issued rulings conferring a wide range of due-process rights and protections on the enemy. The judiciary's increasing involvement in an area where it has historically understood the limitations of its competence and reach is extremely troublesome.

    As for the Senate's overwhelming vote to codify the treatment of these detainees, there are serious downsides. First, this isn't about torture. The administration has made clear that torture will not be tolerated, and those who use it will be punished. Is there any evidence demonstrating the contrary? Certainly not on any kind of widespread basis. Those who mistreated prisoners at Abu Ghraib were already violating military law and policy, for which they were punished.

    Second, John McCain, the leading advocate of codification, argues that one important reason for his approach is to address the perception problem held by certain countries, i.e., that the U.S. tortures prisoners. Any foreign government that believes this won't likely be discouraged in that view because Congress passes a law based, in part, on addressing their false perceptions. I believe their real problem, apart from likely animus some of these governments have for us, is that U.S. law (at least up to now) does not comport with their law, which confers rights on unlawful enemy combatants. They, like the Clinton administration, seek to fight terrorism in the courtroom, which they perceive as far more civilized.

    Third, while it is true that the judiciary no longer seems willing to exercise restraint in these cases, codification typically leads to more litigation which leads to more judicial intervention. (I should note that McCain has actually argued that these detainees should be brought to the U.S. and tried in U.S. civilian courts, which would be disastrous for many reasons, including recruitment in our prisons, the further conference of due-process rights on the enemy, and the criminalization of the war on terrorism — where detainees’ rights are emphasized over detention, interrogation, and national security.) It is worth repeating that not even the Geneva Conventions confer such rights on this type of detainees. In fact, the Conventions make an exception for them, contrasting their illegal conduct to that of legal soldiers of war. The purpose is not only to recognize that countries have a right to protect themselves from those who don't wage war according to accepted norms, but to discourage it (in our case, to discourage terrorism).

    There's far more that can and should be said about this, but I will simply conclude by pointing out that none of the actions the Court or Congress are justified on national-security grounds, i.e., they speak to the rights of the enemy, perceptions of others, etc.

    — Mark R. Levin is author of the best-selling Men In Black, president of Landmark Legal Foundation, and a radio talk-show host on WABC in New York.
    I hope this clears up why we dont treat these people the way some of you would like. This guy is my favorite radio host. Hes even funnier than Rush
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  2. #2
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slouching Toward Pampering the Enemy

    Laugh all you like the man is a top constitutional lawyer and knows what hes talking about.
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    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slouching Toward Pampering the Enemy

    If he's a 'top constitutional lawyer' why is he hosting a radio talk show?

    Can you perhaps provide more on his credentials, and perhaps a link to the site from which you took this article?
    "I love this fellow God. He's so deliciously evil." --Stuart Griffin

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slouching Toward Pampering the Enemy

    I said top
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slouching Toward Pampering the Enemy

    If he's a 'top constitutional lawyer' why is he hosting a radio talk show?

    Can you perhaps provide more on his credentials, and perhaps a link to the site from which you took this article?
    Hows this

    Mark Levin is a conservative talk radio host on WABC in NY City and WBAP in Dallas/Ft. Worth.

    You can listen live to Mark Levin from 6:00 to 8:00 PM EST, Monday through Friday.

    Mark is president of Landmark Legal Foundation. Previously he served as Landmark’s director of legal policy for more than three years. He has worked as an attorney in the private sector and as a top adviser and administrator to several members of President Reagan’s cabinet. Levin served as chief of staff to U.S. Attorney General, Edwin Meese; deputy assistant secretary for elementary and secondary education at the U.S. Department of Education; and deputy solicitor of the U.S. Department of Interior. He holds a B.A. from Temple University, where he graduated Phi Beta Kappa and magna cum laude, and a J.D. from Temple University School of Law.
    Sounds like a real shmuk huh?

    Or this

    MARK LEVIN
    Mark R. Levin is president of Landmark Legal Foundation, one of the nation’s most prominent conservative legal groups. Landmark promotes free enterprise, property rights, educational choice, free speech, taxpayer rights, welfare reform and ethics in government in courtrooms throughout America.

    Mr. Levin served previously in the Reagan Administration, including chief of staff to Attorney General Edwin Meese, Associate Deputy Attorney General of the United States, and Deputy Solicitor at the U.S. Department of the Interior. Mr. Levin is an expert on the U.S. Constitution and government ethics. He represented Mr. Meese during the Iran-Contra investigation and was a leading advocate for the impeachment of President Bill Clinton.

    He is an MSNBC legal analyst, a contributing editor of National Review, and a frequent contributor to the Washington Times and Human Events. Mr. Levin often appears on CNN’s Crossfire, CNBC’s Rivera Live, and Fox News Channel’s Hannity & Colmes. Rush Limbaugh appointed Mr. Levin head of his “legal division.”
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 11-10-2005 at 09:00.
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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slouching Toward Pampering the Enemy

    Gaw, why do you keep dragging out these diehard apologists as some sort of "argument" ? IMHO you're just making yourself look silly.

    Plus the guy has an intolerably machoBS tone - it starts right at the headline. The only "pampering" in the context is in the rhetoric of him and his ilk, and it's aimed at the sensibilities of a certain strand of hardliner who confuses principles with weakness (this type of thinking in general has a worrisome obsession with ideas like "strenght" and "toughness" and suchlike).

    That said, someone once summed up the reasons behind the habeas corpus and all those other limiting principles as "visit the places where they aren't followed, and you understand why they exist."

    Oh yes, the guy has impressive credentials. And the nerve to claim "the administration has made clear that torture will not be tolerated, and those who use it will be punished" - when he's probably among those legal experts said adminstration has had looking for legal loopholes to specifically allow the use of torture by the military and the intelligence agencies. Heck, didn't they only recently submit something of the sort to the Senate for due processing...?
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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slouching Toward Pampering the Enemy

    If he's a 'top constitutional lawyer' why is he hosting a radio talk show?
    We do this all the time. Being a top lawyer is notoriously underpaid. I myself run a burger stall on the weekends just to make ends meet.

    Playing the argument rather than the man for a moment, can Gawain please explain WHY "due process rights" are considered a bad thing? IMHO there is an enormous exercise in begging the question here. I suspect the reasoning is "these guys are terrorist scumbags, why waste any time or money on them?"

    The trouble with that, of course, is until they have been tried they are NOT terrorist scumbags, in the eyes of the law, they are the accused. And it takes a judicial process adhering to the generally accepted principles of fairness to convert them into the convicted. You know, little things like knowing the evidence against you and what you are accused of.

    And what's the downside of all this due process? At worst, a bit of delay, and some money spent on lawyers ( ). A small price to pay, (by a nation that spends USD2.2 BILLION on each stealth bomber,) for maintaining its international reputation and not locking up innocent people,
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slouching Toward Pampering the Enemy

    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    We do this all the time. Being a top lawyer is notoriously underpaid. I myself run a burger stall on the weekends just to make ends meet.
    My local burger seller has a ground-breaking book out this week on polymer nano-engineering and robotics. He says there is more money in that than in International Law. Can't blame him, a fellow has to make ends meet.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slouching Toward Pampering the Enemy

    Playing the argument rather than the man for a moment, can Gawain please explain WHY "due process rights" are considered a bad thing?
    This is pretty simple. Can you tell me why the Geneva convention makes a special classification for these people? Could it possibly be because THEY WANT TO DISCOURAGE THIS TYPE OF FIGHTING? If you dont follow the rules your not entitled to the protections of them either. You would ignore the conventions and make these people the same as US citizens and legal combatants. I thought you people stood up for the rule of law and the Geneva conventions. Your way is to trash them and make a mockery of them. Let anybody fight anyway they like.
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    Probably Drunk Member Reverend Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slouching Toward Pampering the Enemy

    Would you like to see America rule again? Would you like to send our coloured cousins home again? All you have to do is follow the Right.
    Last edited by Reverend Joe; 11-10-2005 at 18:09.

  11. #11
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slouching Toward Pampering the Enemy

    Would you like to see America rule again? Would you like to send our coloured cousins home again? All you have to do is follow the Right.
    Talk about leftist propoganda.
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    Senior Member Senior Member English assassin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slouching Toward Pampering the Enemy

    Sorry, big G, but you are up to the old apples and cheeseburgers thing again.

    The geneva convention covers soldiers captured in war. Now, you being a former marine, I don't need to tell you that a soldier fighting in war is not commiting a crime. Even the state he is fighting against does not consider him a criminal, even if he has killed many of its citizens. He doesn't get put on trial if he is caught, (it doesn't, after all, matter what he has done) but he is detained, to stop him fighting until the war is over. Apples.

    Other people, not soldiers, not in uniform, are not as a rule covered by the GC. (I thought the hawks were very clear on this.) So, therefore, they ARE subject to criminal law. He is put on trial if he is caught, because it does matter what he is done, and he is detained to punish him for as long as the crimional law deems necessary. Cheeseburgers.

    The fact that the convention on soldiers does not extend to criminals is not a reason not to treat criminals in accordance with the usual processes of criminal law.

    What you can't do, IMHO, is invent some very convenient cheeseyapple burger category combining the bits you like from the soldier category and the bits you like from the criminal category.
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    PapaSmurf Senior Member Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slouching Toward Pampering the Enemy

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    My local burger seller has a ground-breaking book out this week on polymer nano-engineering and robotics. He says there is more money in that than in International Law. Can't blame him, a fellow has to make ends meet.
    I was a former bartender and ended up working in corporate finance thanks to all those engineers and lawyers flooding the restauration workmarket... Now you can't serve a beer without knowing about habeas corpus and molecualr bio engineering. They're killing that job of mine with all those overqualified nerds!

    It's about time something is done about this!

    Louis,
    [FF] Louis St Simurgh / The Simurgh



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    Probably Drunk Member Reverend Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slouching Toward Pampering the Enemy

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Talk about leftist propoganda.
    Actually, I was just messing with you. At this point, we agree on so little, I don't even bother arguing much with you.

    And haven't you ever heard/seen "The Wall"?

  15. #15
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slouching Toward Pampering the Enemy

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    If you dont follow the rules your not entitled to the protections of them either. You would ignore the conventions and make these people the same as US citizens and legal combatants. I thought you people stood up for the rule of law and the Geneva conventions. Your way is to trash them and make a mockery of them. Let anybody fight anyway they like.
    So the US by not following the rules is not entitled to the protection either? Or is this a one way street?

    Innocent until proven guilty. Trial By Jury.

    Or is the term Justice, just been iced?
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