The Elgin Marbles - are the heads in Greece?

[Epistolary Richard]

A colleague of mine recently went to the British Museum and saw the Elgin Marbles. She was told that, for some reason, whilst the British government had bought the bodies of the Marbles from Elgin, the heads of many of the statues had remained in Greece.

I had assumed that it was simply the case that the heads had broken off during the centuries and had been lost. Is this the case, or are the heads still in Greece?

[Kraxis]

Elgin Marbles? What are they?

[conon394]

Epistolary Richard

As far as I know Elgin sold everything he managed to secure intact to the British Museum. If it’s missing it was either broken in removal or already damaged.

Overall Elgin managed to secure 247 ft of the Parthonon frieze, 15 metropes sculptures, and seventeen pedimental figures. At the time the demand for classical antiquities was growing in Europe and in particular England and France appear to have been engaged in something of a culture arms race. Some heads seem to have been removed illegally and sold before or after Elgin’s large scale operation. Maybe the Greeks have acquired some of the heads from other museums or collectors or financed the reconstruction of some of the fragments.

[Rosacrux redux]

To put things straight, Elgin has bribed a few Ottoman officials and then stole the largest part of the Parthenon frieze. "Lord" Elgin is a bloody common thief and the marbles do not belong to the British Museum but to the Parthenon and Greece.

Bah!

[conon394]

Rosacrux redux

While I can understand where you are coming from, be honest... If the marbles had not been removed en-mass by Elgin they would have been removed piecemeal by collectors in the interim...

Elgin may have bribed officials but by the standards of the day his actions were legal. Plus the fact is the marbles will no doubt be returned, but consider how they would look now it Elgin was never born and they had endured almost 2 centuries of pollution and Turkish inattention or active damage combined with petty European looting.

I certainly hope that when the Greek government does get them back they don’t put them on the Parthenon, but in a museum, the last thing they need is to be exposed to the polluted air of any major western city be it Athens or London or Houston.

In any case the Greeks have certainly proved the stewardship argument can no longer be used as a defense by the British Museum, I think Thera is a good example of the care take by Greece compared to the comparative inattention displayed by Italy (a traditional ‘Western’ European state) for Pompeii. Also the British have surprisingly managed to duck the issue of the bleaching carried out under their auspices

[Steppe Merc]

Why should the Elgin Marbles be returned? People have always stolen art from other places. If everyone had to return the art that was stolen, there would be no muesuems left.
In addition, why do the Greeks have precedence? It isn't the same government or country as it was before. Just because they live in the same place doesn't make them the heirs of all things there.

[conon394]

Steppe Merc

My sense of the situation just makes me feel they will be returned, the political environment seems to be tilting toward Greece. There is no reason they have to; but Greece has made a strong case that they are a modern European state, they managed the Olympics just fine even though they were put under a harsh (and rather unfair) level of scrutiny. They have a demonstrated track record of managing antiquates as well if not better then many other European states. While I think in the long run Elgin did a good service in preserving the marbles, British stewardship has its own black eyes... Ultimately it would be nice if the remains those in Athens, London, Paris and else ware could be shown together in sight of (at least) of the Parthenon. Seeing as most of the major players in the drama are EU members I find it difficult to believe that they can't work out some kind of EU wide arrangement.

[Kraxis]

Return or not...

That is a very tough dilemma. My consious mind says it is the right thing to return the stuff, Sweden has a lot of things that were looted back in the late 1600s that I would like to see back in Denmark. But then I think of the Glyptotek in Copenhagen, a massive donated museum of art from Carlsberg (the man and founder of the brewery). It has featured immensively in my school history. I have been there several times as it is perfect for showing students the various cultures. Without it I would have been that much less educated, and I really don't like that.

Of course some museums have more or less taken everything there is about a specific culture (or region), and thus the argument is hardly effective, but we can't play doublestandards. Arrrr it is so... Well unsolveable.

[Marcellus]

In answer to the original question...

I went to the British museum recently and yes, many of the heads from the metope panels depicting fights between Centaurs and Lapiths are in Greece. I thought it seemed pretty stupid to keep them separate, but I suppose neither the British Museum nor Greece want to give up their parts of the metope panels.

[King Henry V]

The act of taking the marbles to Britain, was probably a good thing given the fact that had Elgin not done so some of the frieze would probably have been destroyed, since the Erechteum was reduced to ruins during the Greek War of Independance. Note that the Ottomans did not have a great reputation when it came to preserving historical monuments.

[Seleukos]

Oh thanks god mr Elgin stole the marbles !!

He also stole one Karyatis statue from the Erecthion u mention-but the other 5 survived too while staying in Greece...not only the stolen one.

And the bleaching,and destruction of the surface of the marbles by the British keepers of the museum...well it was part of the "protection"...

[Kraxis]

The act of taking the marbles to Britain, was probably a good thing given the fact that had Elgin not done so some of the frieze would probably have been destroyed, since the Erechteum was reduced to ruins during the Greek War of Independance. Note that the Ottomans did not have a great reputation when it came to preserving historical monuments.

Yeah...

"Hey, that is a nice big building up there."
"My dear, you are right."
"Let's use it as an ammo dump!"
"Yes, lets bring all the gunpowder in Greece here, and make sure it is badly guarded."

[Geoffrey S]

It's a horrendously pointless loss, that.

At the time taking the marbles was for the best; as has been said the Ottomans didn't have the preservation of Greek monuments high on their list of priorities. Right now I'd have thought Greece would be capable of taking good care of them, and that the marbles do belong where they originated.

[King Henry V]

Oh thanks god mr Elgin stole the marbles !!

He also stole one Karyatis statue from the Erecthion u mention-but the other 5 survived too while staying in Greece...not only the stolen one.

And the bleaching,and destruction of the surface of the marbles by the British keepers of the museum...well it was part of the "protection"...

Yes, the cleaning of the marbles was a very foolish mistake, but they would have been damaged and eroded by the natural elements had they stayed in Greece. I agree that the marbles should be returned to their home in Greece, but the transfer of the marbles to Britain was the best thing for them at the time.

[Epistolary Richard]

Thanks for the answers, I'll pass them on to her

[Kalle]

Sweden has a lot of things that were looted back in the late 1600s that I would like to see back in Denmark.

And what would that be? Scania? Blekinge? Halland? Bohus? Jamtland? Harjedalen? And for some time Norway, but Norway we gave away but not to danes but to the Norwegians themselves, thats how good we are but now we want the Norwegian oil back, its oursss ourrrrsssssssss precioussss

Kalle

[Kraxis]

And what would that be? Scania? Blekinge? Halland? Bohus? Jamtland? Harjedalen? And for some time Norway, but Norway we gave away but not to danes but to the Norwegians themselves, thats how good we are but now we want the Norwegian oil back, its oursss ourrrrsssssssss precioussss

Kalle

You have the royal dress of Queen Margaret I... Among other things. Do not presume that those occupations of Denmark (outside Copenhagen) were nice in any way.

[Papewaio]

Pity there wasn't a modern Elgin to buy the Buddhist statues that the Taliban blew up...

[Incongruous]

I do not agree with all this "we want it back because a long time ago you stole it".
I mean if we give back the Elgin marbles, why not give everything back that we have accumulated over the years from other countries?

[Rosacrux redux]

I do not agree with all this "we want it back because a long time ago you stole it".
I mean if we give back the Elgin marbles, why not give everything back that we have accumulated over the years from other countries?

Now that's a good idea if I ever heard one

[Kraxis]

I think the point would be to retunr stuff in a sensible manner.

Lets consider the cases where 'foreign' states have almost exclusive info on a certain culture or something. That obivously can't be right and as such at least some should be returned. But returning everything could be equally damning as it could end up pretty closed off for various reasons.

Anyway, Denmark returned all the originals of the Icelandic Sagas to Iceland about 15-15 years ago. It was sensible to have them here when when they were brought here as there was no university in Iceland, but in time they were copied and weren't even on display. There was no purpose for them being in Denmark... While tere was certainly purpose to them being in Iceland where they would bolster the notional feeling and sense of belonging.

[Steppe Merc]

Pity there wasn't a modern Elgin to buy the Buddhist statues that the Taliban blew up...

Agreed, it is a shame about those statues.

And I don't want to tred on this whole nationlism thing, but it wasn't your nation that created those artworks. I really don't see how just because you live in the same place a nation once existed you automatically get the rights to that artwork. What about in a place where many different cultures and groups created art, and the current inhabitants are hardly related to those people at all?
I'm not saying its right to go around stealing art. However, I don't think we can or should return everything to the nation where it was found in.

[Kalle]

You have the royal dress of Queen Margaret I... Among other things. Do not presume that those occupations of Denmark (outside Copenhagen) were nice in any way.

Uumm I think you took my post hard? Sorry for that.

I dont think I said the occupation was nice and if I implied it im sorry. Neither were the danish attempts to dominate Sweden nice. Wars and such things are hardly ever nice.

In all honesty though I think the danes caused as much trouble and were as bad vs Swedes/Sweden as Sweden has been to Denmark. Return the money Sweden had to pay to get Älvsborg back in todays value and Im sure we can make a deal about the dress

I think Margareta was Queen of Sweden aswell though so why the dress belong more to Denmark?

Kalle

[Seleukos]

Agreed, it is a shame about those statues.

And I don't want to tred on this whole nationlism thing, but it wasn't your nation that created those artworks. I really don't see how just because you live in the same place a nation once existed you automatically get the rights to that artwork. What about in a place where many different cultures and groups created art, and the current inhabitants are hardly related to those people at all?
I'm not saying its right to go around stealing art. However, I don't think we can or should return everything to the nation where it was found in.

"it wasnt your nation that created those artworks" ??

What do u mean it wasnt the greek nation ?

[Rosacrux redux]

Agreed, it is a shame about those statues.

And I don't want to tred on this whole nationlism thing, but it wasn't your nation that created those artworks. I really don't see how just because you live in the same place a nation once existed you automatically get the rights to that artwork. What about in a place where many different cultures and groups created art, and the current inhabitants are hardly related to those people at all?
I'm not saying its right to go around stealing art. However, I don't think we can or should return everything to the nation where it was found in.

No, I think you are saying it is right to go around stealing art. In a rather resolute way too. And stop the nationalistic nonsense, I am as nationalist as a man without a country

Now, there is this little thing that is called "the national emblem of a country". The "Elgin" marbles are for Parthenon and Greece something like the crown jewels are for Buckinghum and Britain - a national emblem. And since they got acquired in a rather queer manner, one could only expect the British government, honoring the good relationships with Greece and appreciating the value those artifacts have for our country and people, to give them back.

We haven't gone to Le Louvre to ask for Aphrodite back, nor to the one thousand museums throughout the world to ask for the millions of Greek artifacts to be returned.

We ask only for the "Elgin" marbles because they are a vital part of our national monument, that is all.

What is so hard to understand in that?

[Seleukos]

We haven't gone to Le Louvre to ask for Aphrodite back, nor to the one thousand museums throughout the world to ask for the millions of Greek artifacts to be returned.

We ask only for the "Elgin" marbles because they are a vital part of our national monument, that is all.

I agree 100%.

And its a thing more: These scalptures are a part of an architectural complex-the Parthenon and the Acropolis,not single statues,pots or artifacts.
Of course i dont mean that they should be exposed to the pollution and air,but they should be presented in the museum of Acropolis.
Its like someone have cut and stolen the head of the statue of liberty end exposes it in a museum of Africa

[Kraxis]

I think Margareta was Queen of Sweden aswell though so why the dress belong more to Denmark?

Kalle

Fair enough (about the parts left out)...

She was, but she was part of the Danish royal family since she was married into it, and she was the initiator of the Kalmar Union. She 'gained' the title of queen of Sweden by virtue of actions, but her family was tied to Denmark.

The warindemnities were neither great nor very tough on Sweden, the war had been a low intensity war with neither side getting any clear advantage. The indemnity reflected that, had it been a crushing demand you can be sure Sweden would have fought on as she was far from beaten.

[English assassin]

And I don't want to tred on this whole nationlism thing, but it wasn't your nation that created those artworks. I really don't see how just because you live in the same place a nation once existed you automatically get the rights to that artwork

THIS is a sensible observation. It may be that the people living in greece today do have some claim over an artwork created by the people living in greece 2500 years ago, but they do have to make the case IMHO. Certainly the greek NATION didn't create the art, not least because the greek nation in modern form didn't exist until over 2000 years later. I imagine an ancient Athenian would be very amused at the idea of a modern Peleponesian asking for the return of "his" marbles...

An argument like "the frieze is part of the building and should be with the building" is a sensible one IMHO. "We are greek and so are the statues" is not such a sensible one.

For my twopennorth, Elgin obtained the marbles legally enough by the standards of the time. It might be better to transfer the marbles to Athens at some time, but that should be because it would enable more people to see them or otherwise enhance the marbles or the Parthenon, not because of any (in my view incorrect) argument that the marbles were obtained illegally.

I also think we should resist very strongly this idea that artifacts should not leave their country of origin (in stark contrast to the people in a lot of the country of origins who seem to be very happy to leave). Is it really an improvement to the world at large if you can only see african art in africa, or aboriginal items in Australia?

[Idomeneas]

THIS is a sensible observation. It may be that the people living in greece today do have some claim over an artwork created by the people living in greece 2500 years ago, but they do have to make the case IMHO. Certainly the greek NATION didn't create the art, not least because the greek nation in modern form didn't exist until over 2000 years later. I imagine an ancient Athenian would be very amused at the idea of a modern Peleponesian asking for the return of "his" marbles...

An argument like "the frieze is part of the building and should be with the building" is a sensible one IMHO. "We are greek and so are the statues" is not such a sensible one.

For my twopennorth, Elgin obtained the marbles legally enough by the standards of the time. It might be better to transfer the marbles to Athens at some time, but that should be because it would enable more people to see them or otherwise enhance the marbles or the Parthenon, not because of any (in my view incorrect) argument that the marbles were obtained illegally.

I also think we should resist very strongly this idea that artifacts should not leave their country of origin (in stark contrast to the people in a lot of the country of origins who seem to be very happy to leave). Is it really an improvement to the world at large if you can only see african art in africa, or aboriginal items in Australia?

I think you are comfusing something. We are not talking about americans claiming wipped out native americans' artwork. We are not talking about spaniards claiming wipped out maya or aztec artefacts. We are talking about Greeks claiming greek artwork actually stolen with permission not of greek people but of an occupation force officer. In recent researches in dna of greek population it is found that an enormous percentage is of native origin, a ig bpart of them go back to palaiolithic age. Popullation not only within in todays greek borders but all over balcans and asia minor. And it makes perfect sense because all those people living here 2500 were not disappered in any way. They continued living in the region (no running away from snow and hunger). Offcourse there are alterations on the popullation nobody sane would deny it, but certainly not to the point you imply (a people been disappeared or extinct). Offcourse if you have any kind of facts i would be happy to have a discussion. If not everything you say is as valid as any claim that im grandson of Pericles.

''Lord'' Elgin was a little petty thief trying to get some money by mutilating a monument of worldwide importance. The permission he originally had from Sultan was about drawing the monuments. After he worked his way with bribes and tricks he managed to strip the marbles. The scientific methods he used included SAWS and many pieces were destroyed while brought down. He boarded the marbles in a warship in such an illegal manner that the british goverment didnt initially aproved. The marbles stayed in a wet storage house on the ground while he was looking for buyers. Yes thank god he saved the marbles from pollution which only appeared in athens the last 30 years.

To be fair Elgin was only one of the many foreigners that roamed the land during 18th-19th century trying to aquire ancient artefacts. Classisism was fashionable then. The good thing is that while some people thought that would be more civilized by just owing a classic piece some people saw what the real wealth of greece was and appreciated the struggle of its people for independence. People like Lord Byron and many other true friends of greek spirit. He saw in the resistance of Messologi city people the fighters of Sparta, athens, Macedonia and more, He saw that the independence spirit was always there. Elgin and people like him needed sculptures to see those values. He/they forgote that the real essense of greece wasnt in marbles but in people.

I understand the objections of british fellows. They are right. If everybody takes what is his back what will be left in that vast museum? Well you still have Stonehedge guys. Its great.
The most annoying is to see people legalizing theft just because it suits them. The marbles are part of a building. Parthenon. And part of a complex. Acropolis. The new museum is almost ready waiting for the marbles.

I assure you we can take care of them. At least we know that Penteliko marble has iron inside it and thats why the redish color is not dirt.

Everybody who wants to see them is welcome to see then in the natural enviroment they belong and under apollo's sun light not some rainny foggy place. After all Greece is not THAT far.

[conon394]

Idomeneas

Setting aside the use or ill-use of any particular piece of genetic evidence, claiming a direct patrimony from classical Greece would seem to not necessarily justify a return.

After all the Athenians built who Parthenon but also were also quite comfortable with the logic of the Melian dialogue, and the defense of their empire at Thuc. I 73-78 even in defeat if you consider Plutarch and how Philocles faced the defeat at Aegospotami. In each case the Athenian view on legality would seem to be that powerful empires were free to define the legality (or lack there of) of actions among themselves. In Elign’s day Britain certainly qualifies as such, Turkey to a lesser extent, and unfortunately for Greeks, Greece not at all.