Economics of the Golden Horde: How can I get those?

[Grond]

The Khan regularly rolls into town with a super army of 30-50 thousand troops. He usually slices through a few dozen provinces, then settles down to consolidate his little kingdom. It's annoying and horrific if you're on the east side of the map.

Now, I thought something is a little fishy. Say the Khan shows up with 50,000 troops. That's a lot of mouths to feed. Assuming, arguendo, that those troops are purely peasants (and we know they're not), that's 250 units worth of peasanty happiness. At 75 florins a turn, those peasants eat up 18,750 florins worth of whale fat each year. Now, if we make an assumption that those are hayburners and their maintenance is more about 150 florins per troop (on the low side, really), that's 625 troops of 80 horsemen, for a yearly cost of 93,750 florins.

In most of my games, I could sustain that rate for MAYBE 6 turns, at the most, before I'm out of money and options.

So, how the hell does he do it? Or is he just broke from the first turn, and not creating new units? Does the Khan have a huge war chest in the beginning? If the poor bastard in landlocked economically-challenged Poland has to live on 12 kopecs a day, then the bastard Khan ought to also.

Maybe this is all clarified in one of the mods that lets you play the Horde. Are these numbers close, or am I mistaking things?

[Feanaro]

Best as I can tell, the A.I. is just way better than you at investment banking. Or they cheat. :D

I see things like this, on a smaller scale, all the time. In my longest running game yet(HRE, played over a year... yeah, I'm slow), the Italians have been sitting on Sicily with a stack and a half of units. Over four princes sucking cavalry sized amounts, along with sundry peasants 'n spearmen. They make something like 100 florins in that province.

In my Scottish VI campaign(I wish they had an option for the Scotch-Irish. As it is, playing the Irish kinda sucks. I can't believe they short changed the makers of such fine whiskey.), the Picts re-emerged on the little island north-west of England(I'm a Yank, I can't keep track of all the funky British names). Two full stacks. Only half the men are peasants. They sat there for over two decades, until their king keeled over without any heirs.

In both cases no one talked about inflation, unemployment, rampant wage differences, or how monarchies are, like, totally not cool. No Maynard Keynes fans came along to propose that the crown intervene, Adam Smith didn't mention an invisible hand, Marx didn't shout anything about the proletariet. I guess some medieval people didn't need "food" or "money", they ate dirt. So grandpa WASN'T lying about how horrid it used to be when he was little and sex was just a twinkle in God's eye, not to be invented for another fifty years.

[antisocialmunky]

They start with enough money to pay that 40,000 florin ransom for their Khan.

[miho]

I just think they're broke. Once I played with them and I never had more than 2000 florins in my treasury until I conquered Constantinople.

[Ironside]

They are broke.

Using -ian command and god mode, I've seen factions with -200.000 in thier treassury, as they never disbands troops to get the economy in order.

Never tried the horde that way, but I've never seen them build troops. That's why their army withers so fast.

[Ludens]

They are broke.

Using -ian command and god mode, I've seen factions with -200.000 in thier treassury, as they never disbands troops to get the economy in order.

Never tried the horde that way, but I've never seen them build troops. That's why their army withers so fast.

Indeed. Troops don't desert when their leader runs out of cash; it simply means there will be no recruitment anymore. Not that this is very important for the Horde: they cannot recruit any units anyway, appart from steppe cavalry and some basic infantry.

Incidentally, Horde cavalry and infantry have a very low upkeep (probably reflecting their nomadic status).

They start with enough money to pay that 40,000 florin ransom for their Khan.

Factions always pay the ransom for the faction leader if he has no heirs. They only refuse when they are out of cash and there is a heir available.

[Grey_Fox]

I've modded the Horde to be playable, and they can build all their units. However they never do because they are broke.

[NodachiSam]

Theoretically, after a long while they might get a small second wind as their armies get massacred to a payable level. I should add, by that time in the game they won't too much of a factor.

[Budwise]

I never really been scared of the Horde honestly. Even if I start on the eastside because I know how and when they will come and I know that if I can set them up so that other factions will soften them first. Then they aren't a real threat to me. Just slaughter their troops, don't ransom back anything and they will soon be too weak to do anything.

[miho]

I never really been scared of the Horde honestly. Even if I start on the eastside because I know how and when they will come and I know that if I can set them up so that other factions will soften them first. Then they aren't a real threat to me. Just slaughter their troops, don't ransom back anything and they will soon be too weak to do anything.

Yes I agree. In my current Sicilian game they are already weakened form fighting the Russians, Byz and the Turks. They're on 20% of their original armies just 20 years after they arrived. I'm surprised that Russians managed to hold them off. They usually get swept away early.

[Ludens]

I've modded the Horde to be playable, and they can build all their units. However they never do because they are broke.

Ahem, yes, you are right. I apparently consulted the wrong tech tree.

[Deus Ex]

Is it posible to mod the game and make the date the Horde shows up more random? Since we all know when they will come knocking - it is much easier to prepare for them.

A range of 30 years could make that more interesting - if you set up your 5 stacks of horde killers too early you just pay for them to sit there waiting...

just a thought...

DE

[miho]

Is it posible to mod the game and make the date the Horde shows up more random? Since we all know when they will come knocking - it is much easier to prepare for them.

A range of 30 years could make that more interesting - if you set up your 5 stacks of horde killers too early you just pay for them to sit there waiting...

just a thought...

DE

Good idea. Although I don't have a clue how to change that.

[Weebeast]

I heard it's hardcoded. Unlike the Burgundians and Swiss, Golden Horde will always appear in 1230.

[miho]

I heard it's hardcoded. Unlike the Burgundians and Swiss, Golden Horde will always appear in 1230.

That may be because really they did arrive in 1230.

[mfberg]

I have only played one game where the Horde did not go into the red immediately. I was Almo/High/Expert and the Horde marched through the east, took over through Saxony, to Constantinople, and down to Syria and all the Middle East. They were actually making money from both raiding and trading. I had to take out their royal line a couple of times to keep them down.
The rest of the games they go into immediate bankruptcy and bog down because they don't hire any accountants to keep their money flowing.

mfberg

[lugh]

It's the AI models fault. They don't use a standard one so don't pay any attention to economics at all.
Try changing the faction_type to muslin expansionary. They conquered as far as Germany and Constantinople, consolidated a little and then went nuts and invaded the Spain via Africa while I munched throught their Asian holdings.

[Weebeast]

That may be because really they did arrive in 1230.

Actually they arrived earlier than that. In fact, the infamous Kalka River battle happened in 1223. I just gotta agree with Deus Ex that they should not always appear in the same year. I love shock factor.

Anyway, I've seen a mongol ship floating in Black Sea in my Turkish campaign. If the surrounding factions are weak but the cities are rich during the invasion then Golden Horde shall rule.

[miho]

I agree that suprise factor would be great. And also they could appear in randomly selected provinces. Not always in Kazaar, ...

[dgfred]

Isn't it true that you can possibly capture Kazar quickly, build it up with all
of the coolest stuff, and put several large stacks of troops there= massive
Horde will appear. That seems extra-challenging

[lugh]

Isn't it true that you can possibly capture Kazar quickly, build it up with all
of the coolest stuff, and put several large stacks of troops there= massive
Horde will appear.

Yeah, I remember that thread, can't find it though. I could've sworn I'd posted in it, but it's not in my subscribed threads.
Long story short, the player spammed as many untis as he could and managed to place them in KHazar just before the Mongols arrived. Ot was pretty dissapointing, it had been discussed in a few thread on the mongols but he was the first to do it, we were all expecting 100k+, I think it was about 25-30k in the end, mostly low end troops since the province wasn't teched.
Now, as the Russians you might be able to get the province up to higher fort with silver armour maybe, that might affect the troop quality, but I doubt it'll affect the numbers.

[Pericles]

For the Golden Horde, it might help if the faction type is changed to expansionary and then give the Horde 5,000,000 florins.

A well financed Horde might be a bit tougher to play against...

[miho]

For the Golden Horde, it might help if the faction type is changed to expansionary and then give the Horde 5,000,000 florins.

A well finaced Horde might be a bit tougher to play against...

Then they really would be a worthy adversary.

[Grey_Fox]

It won't make much of a difference since they'll only spam peasants at you. What the AI really needs is teched up provinces.

[English assassin]

Long story short, the player spammed as many untis as he could and managed to place them in KHazar just before the Mongols arrived.

I did this a while back, to annoy the Byzantines, although I certainly wasn't the first because I got the idea from someone else on the Org I think. I dumped loads of peasants in by sea as the English in 1229. Then I went back to attacking Spain and watched the fun.

It does work. Stuff Khazar full of cheap units and you get a superhorde. The unit mix is the same as usual though, maybe it would have been better if you stock Khazar with good troops but that sort of defeats the purpose.

[Vladimir]

Does anyone know what the code says? The emergence of the horde seems to behave much like a revolt but still has a random element.

[miho]

Does anyone know what the code says? The emergence of the horde seems to behave much like a revolt but still has a random element.

I would check but I don't know where to look. It would be a good idea that they wouldn't appear in every campaign.

[Ludens]

Does anyone know what the code says? The emergence of the horde seems to behave much like a revolt but still has a random element.

I don't think so. As far as I know, the horde appearance is just a scripted "faction re-emergance".

Spamming peasants in Khazar does increase the Horde's numbers, but perhaps there is an upper limit. For an even greater challenge, put a military academy, master swordsmith and armourer and a cathedral + relinquiry (or grand monsque and ribat) in Khazar. The horde will now have full upgrades, making their units even thougher.

[lugh]

I'm pretty sure there is a limit and that the numbers don't increase geometrically or anything.
IIRC the guy who threaded his attempts outnumbered the Mongols and ended up just removing all the spam units since it was a horror to organise the pre-battle.
I can't remember if it was EA, but I think the guy was newer

[antisocialmunky]

If you want a super horde, you need to get atleast gold level armourers and all the morale builds. That makes them ridiculous.