Serialized novel: OFFICER’S HONOR

[Franconicus]

Wait. What is the best pro-Soviet proposal? Mine or yours? If yours, I would argue that no, Germany is not safe from the Soviets at least in the medium to long run. How long will it take for the Soviets to be up and ready to fight again? Also this would not destroy the ussr, just take off the western edge. Course, it may provoke nationalist uprisings else where. Hmm, maybe offer to help put them down? Maybe. Can we have a map of what your propose?

Oh, that's supposed to be B1, not B2

Sorry, I ment pro-German. Manstein wants to save Germany, not the world. That can be the job of the US
It is not the job of the Germans to change the Russian government. If they like communism - fine. If not - now they have a chance to change it.
Germans have to make sure that the communists are no threat to Germany and Europe. For the moment they are weakened. I guess it will take 20 years for them to rebuild the country. Propably all the countries between the USSR and Germany will try to ally with Germany, to protect themselves against Stalin. Germany will be a lot stronger than the USSR. Maybe we should discuss this with Manstein.
Of cause this depends on the rest of the war. If the US nukes Germany the gate is open for communism.
No map. Look at the map of 1919. Changes are: Austria belongs to Germany as well as parts of the CSR and Poland. CSR is seperated into two as well as Yugoslavia (Croatia + Serbia). The Baltic States are free but not completely independant.

[discovery1]

Sorry, I ment pro-German. Manstein wants to save Germany, not the world. That can be the job of the US
It is not the job of the Germans to change the Russian government. If they like communism - fine. If not - now they have a chance to change it.
Germans have to make sure that the communists are no threat to Germany and Europe. For the moment they are weakened. I guess it will take 20 years for them to rebuild the country. Propably all the countries between the USSR and Germany will try to ally with Germany, to protect themselves against Stalin. Germany will be a lot stronger than the USSR. Maybe we should discuss this with Manstein.
Of cause this depends on the rest of the war. If the US nukes Germany the gate is open for communism.
No map. Look at the map of 1919. Changes are: Austria belongs to Germany as well as parts of the CSR and Poland. CSR is seperated into two as well as Yugoslavia (Croatia + Serbia). The Baltic States are free but not completely independant.

Hmmm. I don't know about your time table for the Sovs to threaten Europe again. Anyone know how quickly the Sovs recovered from WWII in our timeline, or at least were in a position to resume offensive operations with the goal of conquering Europe?

Um, what does CSR stand for? Czechoslovokia?

[Franconicus]

Czechoslovakain Republic, instead of CSSR (CS Socialistic R)
Do not think the USSR would be quite as strong as it actually was. See how many people lived in their western satelites. And how big their industries were. No, the USSR in our game will never be able to challenge Germany - at least as long as the US does not help.

[Franconicus]

August 31st, Teheran – Iran
On the way to the conference with Stalin Churchill and Roosevelt get some notes from their diplomats. The British ambassador in Ankara invited the Turkish Prime Minister to dinner. They discussed the political situation and the position of the Turks. The Turkish show little passion to get involved into the war. Although they do not like the German dominance they fear a Soviet dominance much more. The ambassador quotes the Prime Minister: ‘Let’s play a mind game and pretend we lease some bases to the Western Allies. Then I have some questions:
How would the Allies guarantee that the Axis does not attack our territory or our cities? Would they supply us with weapons?
After a war, would America and Britain protect us against any Soviet aggression?
How do you guarantee that there is enough supply coming to Turkey?
Would there be a financial compensation for the trade losses?
The ambassador promised to check these questions.
In his resume he states that Turkey currently sees no reason to join the war. They would be more open if they see that the allies are winning. A resolute action in the Aegean would surely impress the Turks.
There is another report from the American ambassador in Spain. His Italian colleague handed him a peace offer. Italy is willing to end all hostile activities at once. It is willing to change into a democracy. It is also willing to withdraw its armies from Greece and the Med islands. However, it is not willing to betray its former allies as long as they are not hostile. It will request the Germans to leave the country. It will not declare war at Germany nor allow that other nations use Italian ground to attack Germany. Italy demands that the Allies leave the Italian country and that they give back the Italian colonies Libya and Abyssinia.

September 1st, Copenhagen – Denmark
Germany and Denmark sign a peace treaty. Ameluxen says the German-Danish relations could be a model for whole Europe and be the beginning of a new peaceful age. Newspapers all over Europe bring this news.

September 1st, Stalingrad – Russia
Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill meet at Stalingrad. First of all Stalin shows the ruins of the towns, the graveyards. The western leaders have an opportunity to talk with survivors – defenders as well as civilians.
Then the conference begins.
Stalin: “Dear allies! I invited you to Stalingrad so that you become witness of the suffering and the heroic struggle of the Soviet people in this war. I appeal to you to increase your efforts and to join our fight finally.”
Roosevelt: “Well, Joseph, we recognize the contribution of the Soviet people in this war as well as the outstanding performance of the Red Army. But I also have to say that we are doing the best to support you. Do not forget the giant transfer, not only of weapons and military equipment but also of food.”
Stalin: “We know that and we thank you a lot. But the Soviet people wishes their allies would not only support them with goods and god wishes but would give their blood too just like the Russians do.”
Roosevelt: “That is not fair. You know very well that we fight the Germans at the Atlantic and that we bomb their towns. We expelled them from Africa and now we fight them in Italy. You hardly can say that we are not willing to give our blood.”
Stalin: “Common, you only fight them at the periphery, were it does neither hurt you nor the Germans. That is nothing but child’s play. And I know very well who defeated the Germans at Africa. Weren’t it soldiers of France, Australia, India and South Africa? You English know very good how to make others fight your wars. You are sitting on your island for four years now, waiting for us to bail you out. If you want to see war take a look around you. And if you want to join our fight attack the Germans were they are. Build a front at France. Like you promised many times before”
Churchill: “Well, it would not be advantageous to fight them at France, now. We have another proposal. We want to occupy the islands in the Aegean Sea and then send several divisions to southern Russia to support you. You see, we want to fight side by side.”
Stalin: “The Aegean Sea? Are you kidding? What kind of play is this? While we fight for our survival you only follow your own interests. And sending western soldiers to Russia? What a foolish idea! Do you want to support us the way you supported the French in 1940. Sending some tourist platoons to watch us fight and to leave us when the bullets come close? No, I said it before and I will say it again: If you are willing to fight then invade France; And do it now!”
Churchill: „It is not possible now. Do not forget that we are currently fighting in Italy.”
Stalin: “Excuses, nothing but excuses! I am tired of your alibis. I want to know right now and right here; are you willing to invade France this year with at least a million soldiers?”
Roosevelt: „Common, you that this unrealistic!”
Stalin: ”Yes or no!”
Roosevelt: “No, it is impossible!”
Stalin: “Alright! We are tired to fight this war alone. We suffered more than enough casualties. You are happy to watch the Germans and the Soviets bleed. If our allies are not willing to support us we have to see if we can find an agreement with the enemy.”
Roosevelt: “You cannot be earnest! You cannot even think of making peace with the Germans! Do you forget our agreements?”
Stalin: “Our agreements? Didn’t we agree to fight the Germans together? I am tired to fight alone. The discussion is finished. You better leave Russia now!”
September 1st, Kiev – Ukraine
The German and the Soviet delegations meet again.
Buganin: “Here is the answer to your proposal. Stalin is pleased to hear that you do not request territory of the Soviet Union. However, you are wrong if you think that the territories which are claimed by the Baltics, Finland, Poland and Romania are not Russian. They are and they will remain part of the SU.
Stalin also agrees with the concept to retreat the foreign troops. However, the schedule is wrong. The whole retreat has to be finished within 6 months.
Furthermore Stalin sees no reason why the Soviet people should pay. They are not blameable for the war. But to show our good will the Soviet Union abstains from any reparation claims.”
Adenauer: “General, I fear that Stalin misunderstood our proposal. His reply is not acceptable.”
He turns to Manstein: “Feldmarschall, I think we can save our breath. End this war your way!”
Buganin: “Wait a minute. Let’s take Stalin’s answer to start the discussion. I think we can find an agreement.”
Adenauer: “General, while we are talking soldiers are dying on both sides. We do not want to negotiate, we want to make peace. But to show you my good will here is another proposal; if you promise that all German prisoners, POWs and others, are back in Germany until November, then I will order to stop the assault of Leningrad at once and even open the railroad to Moscow. But this is the very last concession. Accept the peace offer now.”
Buganin: “I cannot make a promise without the approval of Stalin.”
Adenauer: “Then hurry, please. Let us end this senseless war!”

September 1st; Eastern Ukraine
German 8th Tank Army occupies Charkow.
The last resistance of the trapped Soviets east of Kiev break down. German infantry corps advance east.
German 6th Army and 1st Tank Army start an offensive operation at the entire front. At the same time German and Finish divisions start an operation to cut off Leningrad.

September 3rd, Kiev – Ukraine
The Soviet delegation arrives again.
Buganin: “Adenauer, why are your armies attacking while we talk about peace. We cannot accept this hostile attitude.”
Adenauer: “General Buganin, they attack because we still do not have an agreement. Sign the treaty and the hostility will stop at once.”
Buganin: “Stalin wants to end the bloodletting. He accepts your proposal.”

What will Churchill and Roosevelt do?

[Kagemusha]

This is great news we have made peace with Soviets!
About the Western Allies.I think its about the time to enter the negotiations.If Germans are ready to leave from the Countries they have invaded,there is no need to continue the war.But i think we should require that Germany pays compensations to the countries it have invaded.

[King Kurt]

Western Allies - Wear down Germany by air and sea. Keep up the pressure in the Eastern Med. No need to build up troops for invasion. This also means that they can concentrate on smashing Japan first then concentrate on an attritional approach to war on Germany. In some ways Russia ducking out the war takes the pressure off the Western allies invading - they can wear down german industry and civilian morale with bombing and wait for a rejuvienated Russia to attack the germans. It may take years, but they can play the long game. Also - I can't see the germans giving up the countries they had invaded and paying reparations - even as a puppet, can they take the chance of a rejuvienated france not looking for revenge.
The one area of strategy I would change would be targeting of the bombing campaign. I would move to targeting energy - oil, electricity, gas instalations - this is what the Allies did in 1944 anyway. You can move the industries to the East, but if they have no power, no petrol then you slowly strangle them.

[Kagemusha]

But if the German energy supplies.Come from Russia mostly after the peace treaty,to the Eastern German industry.How are you going to bomb.them.Also you realize that the Germans with their troops releasing from the Eastern front,where the majority of the wermacht have been will make a serious direct threat to Western allied forces.First it wont take long for Germans to throw the Allied troops out from Italy if they want.In matter of fact.If there will be a peace treaty between the allies and Italy.Allied troops must withdraw from Sicily.You have to remember that this is 1943 and the Aliied bombing operations have not been very succesfull lately.Now after peace with Russia Germans can concentrate all their airpower against the Western allies.

[DemonArchangel]

Alright... I've been keeping track of this Interactive History for a while.

Ok, obviously, bombing's not going to be very sucessful, the Westerners really should start a front in France, if only to make the Germans start diverting troops away from the Eastern Front.

Add the second front in France to a redoubled bombing campaign, and you should give enough time for the Soviets to counterattack in Russia.

~*~*~*~

For the Germans in the Eastern Front, my suggestion is to go on the offensive in all directions, including offensives by both Army Group Center and Army Group South at the same time.

~*~*~

For the Russians, I would just start making peace.

[King Kurt]

But if the German energy supplies.Come from Russia mostly after the peace treaty,to the Eastern German industry.How are you going to bomb.them.Also you realize that the Germans with their troops releasing from the Eastern front,where the majority of the wermacht have been will make a serious direct threat to Western allied forces.First it wont take long for Germans to throw the Allied troops out from Italy if they want.In matter of fact.If there will be a peace treaty between the allies and Italy.Allied troops must withdraw from Sicily.You have to remember that this is 1943 and the Aliied bombing operations have not been very succesfull lately.Now after peace with Russia Germans can concentrate all their airpower against the Western allies.

The bombing - especially during the day - wasn't that effective, but come 1944 with the arrival of the Mustang and a better strategy of targeting oil installations, it was most effective. My scenario is that, as you don't have to invade france, put all your efforts into the air war, use your resources into smashing Japan. With japan out of the picture, that releases enormous resources. I realise that peace with Russia releases aircraft to move to the Western Front - but that process was well underway by late 1943 anyway - but the western war machine, which still has more resources - especially with its control of the sea - will win any war of attrition in the air. This is accentuated by attacking the oil refineries - no petrol, no flying. This scenario does require bases in the Med to suppliment it, which is why there is important. italy/ Scily opens up Austria/ southern Germany while Rhodes opens up Roumania.

[discovery1]

What will the allies do? For now, they will keep doing what Kurt wants, but I'm pretty srue that the populations of the Allies will start to wonder what is the point? Russia is out, Hitler is gone, and Germany isn't nearly as menacing as it was. And I would not be surprised to see the resources commited to the air war to increased considering that the pressure as been taken off Germans. The air war is about to get much harder. And 44 is an election year.

Hmmm... The Me 262 was delayed at least in part because Hitler insisted that it be part bomber. Also it was delayed because of resource shortages. Hitler is gone, and Russia's tribute solves the resource problems. I think we wil see lots of swallows in the skies by late 43. Early 44 at the latest. The air war will be MUCH harder for the allies. And how long will it take before Russia is on it's feet Franc? Ten years?

8,000 tanks, 25,000 artillery (above 37mm), 20,000 mortars, 20,000 trucks, 2,500 fighters, 4,000 attack aircrafts, 2,000 bombers, 1,500 transport planes, 30 million tons of coal, 3,5 million tons of iron ore, 6 million tons of crude oil.

Ugh. No rare materials like tungsten and chrome? I guess the resource shortages will still delay it.

[Franconicus]

And how long will it take before Russia is on it's feet Franc? Ten years?

Do not worry too much. They will never be as strong as they were in reality. They do not have their economically strong satelites. And they do not have German engineers to build them rockets and jets. And they have a very strong opponent in the West.
I guess Stalin will have a hard time to explain why the Germans could invade Russia so easiliy.

Ugh. No rare materials like tungsten and chrome? I guess the resource shortages will still delay it.

That is part of the small print, as well as the rubber and the foot supply. I could not publish the complete document.

What do you all think about the Italian proposal. And the situation with Turkey?

[discovery1]

What do you all think about the Italian proposal. And the situation with Turkey?

Why does Turky matter? need permission to fly bombers thru their airspace?

About Italy? hmmm. kind of pointless if the allies can't get at the germans thru them. What do others thinK?

[Franconicus]

Turkey: Would help a lot. If you have air bases there you can control the eastern med, bomb the Balkan States, esp. Romania and even invade control the gate to the Black Sea.

Italy: It was hard for the Allies to fight the way through to the north. The peninsula is not made for tank manoeuvres, it is ideal for denfense. However, the Allies could use their superiority at sea for flanking manoeuvres. I think the most important advantage of Italy is that you can reach Austrai and southern Germany from there. So having some bases for your heavies and your fighters there could boost the bombing campaign.

[King Kurt]

I knew it was only a matter of time before somebody started talking about Me 262s!! - Don't forget that the Allies had just as good a jet in the Meteor, which was shooting down V1s in 1944 - and if the Allies adopt my bomb the oil installations strategy how can the planes fly? Also my concept of a single force - USAF and RAF - would mean a more concerted, consistent strategy.

As for the Allies long term aims - we must remember why they started in the first place. For England it wasn't Hitler, it was because Poland was invaded. I just can't see the US and UK accepting a europe dominated by Germany - for example will the Germans evacuate all of France to allow free elections.... with a strong possibility of the Communists holding power? Since the war the US and the UK has had a broad military strategy of using technology - principally via the air - to smash the enemy's infrastructure and to use the army to pacify once the enemy is broken. So who is to say they will not start that in 1943?

[Franconicus]

Kurt, take a look at this:
http://www.usaaf.net/surveys/eto/index.htm

A joint command of RAF and USAAF? That sounds very unrealistic to me!

Regarding the Me262: In 1943 it began to become reality. In our scenario it was much stronger than in reality. Galland was a big supporter of this program. Germany is going to produce 1,000 jet per month from January 1944. Though there are still technical problems I think it is an impressing force.

I once read that the fuel for jets was never a proplem, because is was a kind of waste. Did not understand this, though.

The USAAF had a crisis in Automn 1943, when casualties were high. Wonder what will happen if Germany air defence is getting stronger. On the other side German subs disappeared and many long range bombers are released from their sea duty.

[discovery1]

I knew it was only a matter of time before somebody started talking about Me 262s!! - Don't forget that the Allies had just as good a jet in the Meteor, which was shooting down V1s in 1944 - and if the Allies adopt my bomb the oil installations strategy how can the planes fly? Also my concept of a single force - USAF and RAF - would mean a more concerted, consistent strategy.

And how far is it from it's would be bases to targets? And when was it first deployed? Was it's deployment delayed? And can you hit targets in Poland(historically their sythetic oil was in Poland)? And how long will it rake to repair the oil fileds? How often will the raids come? And don't forget that the Germans aren't fighting the Russians, so they don't need oil to fight a land war, and any front likely to be opened by the allies for now won't need alot of oil. And what about all that Russian tribute oil?

For England it wasn't Hitler, it was because Poland was invaded. I just can't see the US and UK accepting a europe dominated by Germany - for example will the Germans evacuate all of France to allow free elections.... with a strong possibility of the Communists holding power?

And if the Germans can demonstrate to the population of the allies that they have no further issues with the west, the people of the allies will vote out hawks. About France, I find it hard to believe that the Allies wouldn't rush into France then, or at least the Free French. Hmmm. How much of France was rebuilt by the Germans after 1940? If it is more or less intact, then I think the problems of communism will be less.

I guess I should at least answer some of my questions:
The Meteor was first deployed on July 12 1944, first saw action against V1s on the 27th of that month. It had a range of 1,610 km, while the P-51 B and D had a range of about 2000 km.

[Kraxis]

Guys... The Meteor is no match for the Schwalbe. It is slower, less maneuverable and critically less well armed (the 4*30mm of the Schwalbe will rip any enemy to pieces), while it is bigger and stronger it will not give any advantage in a dogfight with teh Schwalbe, only against lesser planes or AA. This could in real history have been outweighted by better training, at least to the degree that numbers would win in late 45. But the Meteors flying in 44 were a few squadrons... We are talking some 40 planes in late 44. That is definately not going to be troublesome for the Germans, not in 43.

And yes, the jetfuel was perhaps not a problem per se. But only if the rest of the forces still recieved a minimum of fuel to be working. Jet fuel is what is left after the high octane fuel is made. A jet in fact, operates worse with high octane. It needs a fast burning (and thus uncontrolled burning) rather than a 'slowly' expanding cloud of fire that is advantageous in a piston engine, just like the fast burning black powder is worse in cannons than the very slow cordite (ever seen free cordite burn? It is unbelieveably slow to be a propellant). So the fuel for jets currently shouldn't be a problem, at least not as long as Hungary, Rumania and Silesia produces fuel.

Besides while the Komet was never very successful it could very much have been so. Training... That was what lacked. A proper pilot with the ten 30mm upwardsfiring cannons could easily take out a bomber and then land again with little risk to himself.

The He162 would also become a menace. Cheap and fast it could be churned out in huge numbers. But I guess it's attractiveness wouldn't be so great currently.

And friends... This point is hugely important:
Hitler wanted the V1 and V2 over the quite advanced AA missiles and guided bombs. While the latter did affect the Allies, it was never used more than to just cause a nuisance. The former however, much closer to the V2 got stripped down and basically halted. It could have ben finished in early 1944. And against massive formations of Allied heavy bombers it would have been absolutely devastating. Imagine the entire 'road' from England to Germany lined with batteries of cheap missiles. I'm sorry, but the bombers would have been depleted after a handful of operations. Add in the jets and it would be all over for the bombers.
Terrorboming is not an option now!!!

Having read Speers memoires I can only see a single option left for the Allies.
Special bombing!
Yeah, sure the dambusting didn't achieve anything that lasted, but then again it wasn't attempted again when the Germans had rebuilt. Had that been done Speer argues that German would be out for the count for months.
Again he was scared shitless when he heard Göring claim his 'victory' over the Allies when they bombed Schweinfurt and Regensburg. Both times... The ballbearing factories were devastated and it was only because there were stocks around that he managed to keep the armed forces going while he had his techs change as much as possible to glidebearings. But even with glidebearings he declares that another round of bombings would have ended the German warmachine in a few months (the lesser factories could keep it going for a while).

Both airforces gun for special structure and areas. No more flat terrorbombing. It is working too slow and will end up getting the German ire up as well as give them time to strengthen her defences in the air.
Go for dams, ballbearings, chemical factories and fuel in that order. Other nice targets would be electrical plants, large bridges and hubs of trainyards.
Initially the large bomberfleets could target all but the dams, but in time more specialized forces would be needed for that. So transfer the current attacks while the specialists can be trained for their areas of responseability.


A few points that I find odd...
Russian POWs returned home at once. Why not make it a clause to keep them while the war in the West was going on? After all, we are talking about 6 million compared to the about 400,000 Germans in Russian captivity. In 43 the became absolutely vital to the German industry as the male population was in the armed forces. Of course without the Nazi ideology German women could be allowed into the market, but it would still be understaffed without Russian POWs working farms, factories and such. Keep them and wow to feed and clothe them properly, and return them as once as the war in the West is over.

Strategic resources.
Germany was terribly low on, Molybdenum (sp?), Nickel, Tungsten and a whole range of chemicals. In late 44 even her gunpowder for rifles was filled with no less than 25% of finegrained sand! That was the extent of her lack of chemicals. She could have waged war for half a year more in 45 (after her surrender) had she halted her enemies early that year.

[Franconicus]

Guys... The Meteor is no match for the Schwalbe.

Right!

A few points that I find oddRussian POWs returned home at once. ...

No. The Germans have to be released at once. The Russians are released step by step. You need them as workers and as hostages.

[Kraxis]

Ah, I took it to be a full release on both accounts... Well in this case it is fair enough.

[Kagemusha]

This of topic but Congrats Franc for promotion to Senior Member!

[Franconicus]

You are right. I haven't noticed so far. How did it come? (Maybe because I liberated Denmark )

[Franconicus]

OFFICER’S HONOR (2)

September 8th, East of Kursk, Russia

Manstein visits the divisions at the Kursk front to see how the ceasefire works. At the evening he has dinner with Hausser and Dietrich. Soon the three generals were on a trip down memory lane.

Hausser: “Manstein, isn’t it hard to believe what happened during the last weeks? Recently the Soviets were getting stronger and stronger and this war seemed to be never ending.”
Dietrich: “The 2nd Battle of Kiev is one of the most brilliant military in history, I am sure. I still do not understand the whole thing completely. Manstein, you excelled yourself.”
Manstein: “Gentlemen, it is not as impressive as it may look like. Just an objective analysis of the situation, a plan based on fundamental concepts and some excellent leaders. Yes, Gentlemen, it is thanks to you.”
Hausser: “You are overmodest! Could you explain to us what really happened?”
Manstein: “It all started with an analysis at the eve of ‘Zitadelle’. The Soviets were stronger in numbers, especially in soldiers and guns; ATGs as well as heavy artillery. They had more tanks and planes too. However, due to our better equipment and to our better crews I believed that we could keep up. Especially our tanks were much better. So the first conclusion was that we should try to fight the Soviets at open ground. There their guns would not be as effective while the quality of our tanks would show to advantage. The most stupid thing would have been to attack them at their fortified positions.”
Hausser: “I had an opportunity to see the Soviet field fortifications last week. Hard nut to crack!”
Dietrich. “So you think that we would have lost ‘Zitadelle’?”
Manstein: “Probably not! But after the battle our tank force would have been ruined while the Russians would have been able to replace their casualties. No, we needed a complete victory at low cost.”
Dietrich: “So it was good that ‘Zitadelle’ was cancelled.”
Manstein: “At least I was not unhappy! I started my preparations immediately. To lure the Soviets on open ground I started to retreat the troops. I was sure they would attack. I was also sure they would start with their three strongest fronts. And I wanted to trap them. A good plan was easily found. I had to build a trap for the Russians; if you take a look at the map you see that the Ukraine is a big natural trap itself. I was sure that the Soviets would not try to cross the Desna. They would advance east along the river. They would either try to attack Kiev – which is nice bait – or turn south to cut off our southern wing.
Our troops were the 4th Tank Army, Kempf and the 9th Army as well as the 2nd Army. The plan was based on the old principles of Clausewitz and Moltke – march separately; strike combined! – as well as Guderian’s principles – do not use tanks against strong positions; use them behind the lines and keep them moving.
I also had to find a role for the 2nd Army. You know that our infantry corps are not very mobile. But they have a reasonable strength in defence. So I decided to place the 2nd Army at Kiev, where they could defend the town and the river. The Soviets could run their heads against this brick wall. Then, when they lost momentum, when their flanks were long and the supply tight, then it would be time for the counter strike.”
Hausser: “So your plan was to lure them at a place where they could easily be attacked? Isn’t it a copy of the operations of the France campaign?”
Manstein: “You are right! It is similar. The first phase was to get every division at the right place. The 2nd Army had the toughest job. They had to retreat all the way to Kiev without the support of tanks or planes. I knew that only a very talented commander would be able to execute this operation. So I took Model, and he produced his masterpiece.”
Dietrich: “But wasn’t it careless to let the Soviets cross the Dnjepr?”
Manstein: “That was not part of the plan. I was surprised that the Soviets did not try to block the bridges at Tschenihiw or Tscherkassy. Or even occupy them. They only tried a lame attack at Tschernihiw, but proceeded to assault Kiev even when they had failed. After this I was sure that the battle was won. Konev managed to cross the River where our defence was weak, with two of the best Soviet armies. I did not want to send tank units from Tscherkassy, because I wanted to use everything for the counter strike. So Model had to build a task force with his last reserves to stop the Guard Armies. It was not pleasant to see the Soviets cut our connection to Kiev; but it the end it turned out to be very positive. The Soviet generals believed they were on the winning lane while our tanks were starting the counter attack.”
Hausser: “But they did not attack at the same time.”
Manstein: “No! It started with an operation at the northern flank, at Tschernihiw. There was already a battle going on. I ordered a tank corps to attack the Soviet army. This place was too important to loose. So the tank corps defeated the 7th Army, and secured Tschernihiw. Another goal was to lure more Soviet forces to the west. Actually the Soviets did send reinforcements, not only to the northern, but also to the southern flank. Then the attack from Tscherkassy was started. Two tank corps had been hidden there and I am glad that the Soviets did not find them. Or if they did, that they did not care about it. So your SS corps could advance deeply into the enemy’s positions while another tank corps attacked the Soviets at Kiev.”
Dietrich: “I was surprised how easy it was to break through. There was not much resistance. Hardest thing was to keep the Soviet planes at distance.”
Manstein: “The reaction of the Soviets was slow and strange. It took a long time for them to realize the threat. Then they ordered their cut off armies to assault Kiev. Although they knew that another tank corps was northwest of Kiev. Another strange thing was that they did not use their remaining two tank armies. They remained at the north while the complete southern front collapsed.”
Hausser: “We even managed to encircle four Soviet armies. But you let then escape later.”
Manstein: Yes, I did. The Soviets attacked with two guard armies. I knew you were able to defeat them, but at what cost? No, it was better to bypass them and keep moving. Motion is the best armour of the mobile divisions. And soon enough you were able to cut off all three fronts. Now, having lost two guard armies and being cut off the Soviets finally realized the danger and sent their tank armies to turn east. But it was too late. As I had foreseen, the Soviet tanks could not take on the German tanks.”
Hausser: “Yes, it was a complete victory, an outstanding one. But why didn’t we capitalize on it? Why did we make this agreement with the communists? Hadn’t we shown that we could beat them each and every time?”
Manstein: “Be realistic! Sure, you would have been able to advance further and to eliminate more Soviet armies. But sooner or later we would have had to stop, due to supply needs or bad weather. And then the Soviets would have been able to rebuild and refit their army during winter. And we had to start the whole thing again next spring. Do you think the Soviets would have been as careless again? And do not forget the Anglo Americans. They are getting stronger and stronger. No, we had to end war as soon as possible!”
Dietrich: “Yes, but under which conditions? Did we really have to give back every thing our soldiers fought and died for?”
Manstein: “It was the best we could get. Hitler’s plan to get colonies in the east was nonsense. What for? We ended the war in the east. We have a strong ring of allied nations between us and the Soviets. And what is more important, we can now concentrate on the war in the west.”
Dietrich: “Don’t you think the Russians will attack us as soon as they can?”
Manstein: “No. You trust them. Russia suffered terrible in this war. It will take a decade until they are back on their feet again. The deliveries will extend that period. And do not forget that it is the second time they betrayed their western allies. Britain and America will never trust them again. They will do everything to take revenge.
This peace has a lot of benefit. Our allies get the territories they wanted. They can never change sides because the Russians would take the land away. So we can rely on them, regardless which government they have. And it is also a strong signal to the other nations: Germany does not want to keep occupied territory.
Our peace will influence all of our allies as well as the neutral countries. Look at Turkey. They fear Russia and the hate the English. Both countries stole a lot of provinces. The Turks do not want to have a strong Russia and they also do not like the strong engagement of the English at Iraq, Syria and the other Near East countries. So their only option is to cooperate with Germany. Germany did never do any harm to the Turks.”
Hausser: “You think that the Turks will step in the war? We could send some armies and attack India.”
Manstein: “For heavens sake, no! They help us more if they stay neutral. Now that we demonstrated our military strength the Turks will support us. They will be our bridge to the world. Some US companies already contacted us to supply us with everything we want to have – via Turkey. The Turk is also a good base to start agitation against Iran, Iraq and India. Don’t you think those people are tired to support the English war? And finally a German friendly Turkey will force the British to keep an army just in case they enter war. All in all that is much better than a Turkish ally.”
Hausser: “What will be the next steps?”
Manstein: “We will offer peace to Churchill and Roosevelt. They do not have a reason for war anymore. But I know that you do not need a reason to keep on fighting. So we have to face the option that we must keep on fighting.
There will be free elections at Germany end of this year. After the end of war in the east there is little doubt that Ameluxen will win. The returning POW’s will do the rest. There will also be free elections in the Czech Republic, in Slovakia and in Croatia. Afterwards these countries will accept a peace offer and will join a trade agreement.”
Hausser: “Why do you think they agree? And why having elections at all?”
Manstein: “We need a partner with authority the western countries cannot deny. And we hardly can negotiate with a government that sits at London. And if there are elected governments they will agree to everything as long as they get freedom again. They have no choice. They all are too small to be independent, not even in an economic sense. And they will not ally with the Soviets. And history told them that they cannot rely on the English or French!”
Dietrich: “And then?”
Manstein: “If the British still do not agree on peace we will find an arrangement with a new Polish government. This will be harder of cause. But in the end they will be happy to end the German occupation too. Of cause we will insist on getting Danzig and the corridor, but we will find a compromise. And then the Polish will happily join our trade agreement. France, Belgium and the Netherlands are more difficult. We need them in case we have to fight longer. I think we will try with France first. Petain has nothing to gain if de Gaul returns as winner. He will ask the British if they accept the neutral status of France in case the Germans withdraw. If the reject – and I assume they will – Petain will support us. Maybe France will convert from an occupied country to an ally.”
Dietrich: “What about Italy?”
Manstein: “I know that the Italians negotiate with the Anglo American. If those accept that Italy can be neutral and unoccupied this would be excellent. Italy means nothing. The only danger is that the Americans use it as base for air raids. If we are lucky we will be able to build a ring of neutral nations around us. Then it will be hard for the Anglo Americans to attack us.”
Hausser: ”But if we have to fight we will fight!”
Manstein: “Sure, wishful thinking does not help. The agreement with the Russians increased our resources significantly. We will even offer them to retreat sooner if they give us more and better weapons and material. Our production will boost. Unfortunately we do not have good information about the western armament. There are some strange scenarios. Best case would be that we produce the same amount. Worst case could be that they produce maybe 1.5 to 1.7 times as much as we will. But that does not matter a lot. Sure, they produce where we cannot attack them but they have to carry it to Europe. This absorbs a lot of resources. And then, building ships and bombers is certainly more expansive than submarines and fighters. So I believe we can make it.”
Dietrich: “What are the operation plans?”
Manstein: “The Anglo Americans will not land at Europe besides Italy this year. So we have enough time to send armies from Russia to the west and refit them. Next spring our armies will be strong. Rommel discussed the option to lure the Allies to France and beat them in a battle, but I doubt that they will do us this favour. I do not believe they will come in 1944. So our first goal has to be our air defence. You know that Galland does everything he can to increase the potential of our fighter forces. Target is to produce 1,000 Me262 per month from January. Right now our Zerstörer squads are transferred to jet squads. This should be enough to sweep the sky over Germany. The Me262 fits also excellent to be a night fighter. In the meantime the Me110 can fill this gap. But there are other very promising developments like the He219 Uhu. An excellent night fighter with 615 km/h. They can keep up with their British counterparts. This, in combination with new radar equipment should stop the British raids.”
Hausser: “Alright! So we can repel their attacks. What if they are still not willing to end war?”
Manstein: “Unfortunately the Reichsmarine won’t be able to attack them. I know that there are some very promising U-Boot developments going on. The marine is working on a U-Boot that is very fast under water and that can keep there for a long time. The XXI makes 18 knots under water. This is faster than a British corvette. And the Allied sonar does not work at a velocity of more than 13 knots. The new subs will have a rapid reload able torpedo system. They will have snorkels. They will have the Nibelung sonar, to spot ships without periscope and they will have the Zaunkönig torpedo. And the navy is also working on a so called Walter-U-Boot, which has air independent propulsion. End of 1944 the British will see a new generation of submarines which will make their defence without effect.”
Dietrich: “But even a new successful U-Boot campaign will not bring them on their knees.”
Manstein: “That is right! But it will eat their resources. Of cause we will have air battles over France and England. But I do not think that attacking the British towns would be effective.”
Dietrich: “What about the V weapons. Himmler told me about rockets.”
Manstein: “They are nice, because there is no defence and you do not loose crews. But they are too inaccurate to attack industrial targets. Maybe it would be nice to have some thousands on stock in case of an invasion; we could fire them at Dover or another harbour. But I wonder if they are worth the cost.”
Dietrich: “So how can we attack them?”
Manstein: “If the war will go on, it will go on at the eastern Med. The Anglo Americans will surely try to attack us at Greece. We will increase the armies of Romania, Hungry and Bulgaria. They have to guard the frontier to Russia and send troops to the Balkans. The MiG 3 has a longer range than our planes. Together with the TU2S it could form a force to operate from Rhodes and Crete and attack the British convoys coming from the Suez. This will be a air war. I know that the Luftwaffe has some new developments that will help. They will use it in the Med and in the Biscay. The Me410 is a long range fighter that can compete with the Beaufighter and the Mosquito. The new Ju188 bomber and the FW200 can be used too. The navy developed a glide bomb that seems to be very effective in attacking traders or small military ships. And there is the Arado 234 Blitz. It has a top speed of 737 km/h. This is enough to attack every target we want. I think we will be able to produce better weapons than the Anglo Americans in a suitable number.”
Hausser: “Alright! What will be our job?”
Manstein: You, Hausser, stay near Kiev with your SS Corps. The ‘Leibstandarde’ will be send to France, but you get the ‘Wiking’ instead. You have to have an eye on the Russians and on our allies. You will work with General Weiss, the commander of the Ukraine. And you have to ensure that the treatment of the Russian population will be fair. War is over and we cannot afford to start a new one. You, Dietrich, will go with you division to France. Before that you will give your tanks to the other SS divisions. Your division will be renamed into ‘Friedrich der Große’. You get new equipment in France. You will meet too new SS divisions there and form a new SS corps. You will be the commander. A third SS corps will be formed in Austria this summer. If needed it will be deployed in Italy.”

This discussion lasts until late in the evening. When it is over Dietrich asks Manstein to take a walk along the front. Manstein agrees. Dietrich picks his submachine gun.
Manstein: “Do you want to start a new invasion this evening?”
Dietrich: “I am just careful. There are still dispersed Soviet soldiers and partisans.”
Mastein: “You are right. I will be under your protection.”
They walk quietly through the night. After a while Dietrich starts to talk: “After all it was very lucky that Hitler died. Now I see that we were faced with ruin. ‘Zitadelle’ would have been one step too far!”
Manstein: “You are right. Germany would have been lost. And I am sure that the allies would not have shown any mercy.”
Dietrich: “Do you know that I spend the last night before Hitler’s dead with Himmler. He told me about his plans. He wanted to press Hitler for negotiations with the Western Allies. He thought that the Anglo Americans would rather negotiate with him than with Hitler. I do not think that he planned to kill Hitler.”
Manstein: “Really?”
Dietrich: “I also met some of the soldiers of the probation companies at Kiev. I talked with them. I do not think that the story of the Himmler putsch is true.”
Manstein: “What do you think?”
Dietrich: “I think someone murdered Hitler to rescue Germany.”
Manstein: “And would you agree with that person?”
Dietrich: “I would say that this person did what he had to do. That he acted as an officer.”
Manstein: “I see. I am glad that we have the same opinion.”
Dietrich: “Yes, we do. I would give my life to rescue Germany – without hesitation.”
Manstein: “So would I!”
Dierich: “I know. By the way, do you know that the ‘Leibstandarde was originally the bodyguard of Adolf Hitler?”
Manstein: “Yes, of cause.”
Dietrich: “I am the commander from the very beginning. I swore to protect his life.”
Manstein: “There was little you could do, right?”
Dietrich: “Right! And to be honest, I am glad I could not do anything. But that does not change things. Although I could not protect him my oath ties me to Hitler.”
He takes his gun.
Manstein: “What is your intent?”
Dietrich: “I have to do what I have to do. I have to act as an officer, too.”
He raises the muzzle and fires.

THE END

[discovery1]

Good, but. Why did you have to kill Manstein ?

Oh, and how are Germanies allies going to get spare parts for their Russian aircraft after the tribute ends?

[Kagemusha]

I believe Sepp Dietrich shot himself.Thanks Franconicus!This was amazing journey!

[discovery1]

I believe Sepp Dietrich shot himself.Thanks Franconicus!This was amazing journey!

What? Really? Franc, clarify please.

[Franconicus]

Good, but. Why did you have to kill Manstein ?

Oh, and how are Germanies allies going to get spare parts for their Russian aircraft after the tribute ends?

I don't like the idea that the privates die while the general survives. And did you really think no one from the Nazi gang would realize what happened?

What? Really? Franc, clarify please.

This story has an open end. So you can either imagine yourself or pick up the baton

[Kraxis]

Heh... You ended your story just like I did, when the war in the east was over.
And nice ending!

Dietrich was not a very intelligent man, in fact is reputation was one of loyalty over ability. Draw what you will from that.
A stupid man often has less understanding of the complex Prussian military establishement, meaning he wouldn't understand the suicide for failure properly. But a stupid man can easily understand loyalty and the price of disloyalty. Added together he would likely have killed Manstein.

[King Kurt]

: Initially I thought - what a shame the story has ended, there was so much left to resolve. But when I thought about it we were begining to get to the point where all the decisions to be taken would be based upon sheer guesswork, whereas up to now we could use the experiences of the war and its general direction. With the war in the east resolved there are so many options that a clear path will always be difficult - for example the debate over the air war, the assumption was that churning out thousands of me 262s would swing the air war in the Germans favour, but that is based on the assumption that the Allies carry on doing what they did originally, whereas they would have altered tactics to adjust to the new circumstances and thrown the weight of their technical resources behind it.
So, on reflection, well done Franc for a good story - one question though, could we, as the Soviet high command, have done better and possibly won the battle of Kiev? My guess would have been not to race after the retreating germans, but to advance cautiously on a broad front - but I can't see Stalin letting us do that.

[Kraxis]

Look at what Manstein says... It seems clear that we had the opportunities to win when Russian. But like the historical Russians we tended to bumble ahead like a rhino. We constantly chose brute force over finesse.

I was tempted at takign the choice of taking the two towns on the flanks, but I think I was still in my 'Russian' mind, thinking that it was not the Russian way.

[Franconicus]

First of all, I am not smarter than you are; my only advantage was, that I knew both sides.

I think it was harder for the Soviets to do the offensive operation instead of Zitadelle. But even a minor defeat would have been a strategic victory.

Very often you chose a surprising option.

An problem of the Russians was that they had no clear view on their opponent (which forces, where, intentions, leader).
It was very interesting to observe how the strategy drifted. The original plan was to force the German tanks to a battle and then start the big operation (Kiev, Odessa). The attack of Kiev had only the target to get the Germans out of their shelters. Kiev was not a strategic goal in the beginning.

The Soviets advanced and the Germans did not fight. Now it would have been time to think about the German tank formations. Instead you focused more and more on Kiev. Stalin supported this, because he didn't understand the original plan.

You attacked Tschernihiw with only small forces. It would have been better to attack it with stronger formations or to block it (you did not want to cross the river anyway.)
The most critical desicion was to cross the Dnjepr although you had no clue where the German tank corps were and although you hadn't occupied Tschernihiw. An alternative would have been to attack both Tschernihiw and Tscherkassy. You would have forced the Germans into a material battle.

Most amazing thing was how you reacted when the masquarade fell and the Germans attacked the southern flank. You did not try to call the 5th Guards back (Tscherkassy would have been the target.) You did not even order your remaining tank armies to turn southeast. You just waited. The assault of Kiev was quite desperate. Taking a town of that size with two German corps cannot be done in a day. So you wasted your guard. It would even have been better to let them stay and die where they were.

After the two guards were gone the battle was decided. You refused to accept that, although it was quite obvious. It was still enough time to order every army to run as fast as possible to the east. A minor defeat would have been a strategic victory! While the German corps made a break and became ready for the final strike you thought they were finished.

But Kraxis is right, maybe that is exactly the way the Russians would have done this.

One comment regarding Stalin: He did almost nothing to influence the battle! In 1943, after Moscow and Stalingrad, he had learned to leave the job to the generals. But thinking what Stalin might like or not influenced your decitions.

Alright! This was my analysis. Now I am curious to hear your comments. What were the biggest historical errors in this story?