Riots in France?

**Redleg** · 11-02-2005, 16:21

I just hate the television news - I just watched a news report talking about roits in France - they mentioned it was over some event involving the deaths of two teens and the police - but did not really cover that story or the riot. It was all of about 10 seconds on CNN. Edit: No wonder why I have come to detest the brain drain box.

Does anyone know what the story really was about...

**Devastatin Dave** · 11-02-2005, 16:31

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ance_rioting_3

**TinCow** · 11-02-2005, 16:32

I'm sure some of our European friends can shed more light on the situation than me, but I'll give you what I know.

France has been having major social problems for a long time now due to the massive influx poor immigrants, mainly of North African and African descent. There are several areas of Paris in particular that are ghettos where these people live. They feel neglected by the French government and feel like they are being abused and exploited.

Unrest has been growing for a long time with several particular items contributing the most. The Headscarf Ban, though relatively accepted from what I hear now, provoked a feeling of discrimination amonst this largely muslim population. In addition there have been a string of deadly fires in the poor districts of Paris over the last six months or so. Many people have died and despite huge uproars and complaints over the safety of the buildings and the response of the fire department, the fires continued to happen and people continued to die.

The riots themselves were sparked after two local youths were electrocuted to death when they fled from police into an electrical relay station. Both sides have their own story as to why and how this happened, but it has taken on something of a Rodney King aspect to it for the locals. Protests turned violent and that's where we are today.

**Redleg** · 11-02-2005, 16:32

Okay here is the news print story from the same Brain Drain Box cable station that ran the story

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/eu...ce.riots.reut/

**el_slapper** · 11-02-2005, 17:53

Seen from France :

There has been problems in our "suburbs"(understand big, ugly buildings with zounds of flats) since the 70s. Poor tend to go there as it's too costly to go elsewhere, & most 1st generation immigrants tend to be poor.

So you have a different population stuck over there, poorer, & with a massive immigrant part. Add to it the myth that immigrants would "come back to their country" after a few years of making money(who would come back to a poor dictature with a failing health system? when living in France?), and you'll have a grasp upon the level of ignorance each part of the population hold the other one in.

The beginning of the story itself is really enlightening of our current mess. There is a burglary. It happens. Some cops come so see what's happening. Those 3 kids(and many others), not known of police, not criminals, not involved in the burglary, all honest, flee the police as if they were criminals. Then 2 of them die in an accident. And then Sarkozy the ******, our beloved minister of interior, did say they were criminals seeked for the burglary.....

Of course, they killed themselves. That's not their death that caused the riots - that's what's lying behind. Racism is an unfortunate truth in our country, & it's tougher to find a job when you're arab or black. That plus Sarkozy's agressive behaviour towards people living therein, & you have the ingredients for riots, & not only in Clichy-sous-Bois.

Myself did witness the behaviour of cops in the railway station. Me white have no problem. Blacks are, mmmmh, not that well treated. That's not really violence, just that they are far more annoyed. And it gets on their nerves. Same for arabs.

The "headscarf ban" in itself is just an example of misunderstanding between communities. The problem is deeper. And when my colleague in front of me says that Azouz Begag should not be allowed to be minister as he's arab, I fear we're not out of that mess

**BDC** · 11-02-2005, 18:22

Myself did witness the behaviour of cops in the railway station. Me white have no problem. Blacks are, mmmmh, not that well treated. That's not really violence, just that they are far more annoyed. And it gets on their nerves. Same for arabs.

I saw this on my one train trip through France. I've no problems standing about looking suspicious, some black guy my age was being hastled by a bunch of transport police endlessly.

**Redleg** · 11-02-2005, 18:24

Thanks el_slapper

The story as reported just didn't make sense - It seems France will be suffering from several problems for many years to come - until from what you described it fixes its immigrantion policies, and a few social ills that have developed over the years because of that. Or am I misreading what you stated?

**Radier** · 11-02-2005, 19:15

Then comes the question, why do they take in so many immegrants? There is nothing possitive at all to build up ghettos in the suburbs. I say, those who riot shall imediatly be sent out from France.

This is the same think that happened in the immegrant ghetto of Ronna here in Sweden. Maybe worse...

**Meneldil** · 11-02-2005, 20:16

Those 3 kids(and many others), not known of police, not criminals, not involved in the burglary, all honest, flee the police as if they were criminals. Then 2 of them die in an accident. And then Sarkozy the ******, our beloved minister of interior, did say they were criminals seeked for the burglary.....

Real proof of that ? As far as I know, nobody can say if they were involved with the burglary (sp?) or not. And after having worked with this kind of people for a few months, I wouldn't say they were honest

They were stupid, and they deserved to die. Pardon me, but I doubt they flee because they were innocent. And if they are stupid enough to die that way, that's their problem.

Of course, they killed themselves. That's not their death that caused the riots - that's what's lying behind. Racism is an unfortunate truth in our country, & it's tougher to find a job when you're arab or black. That plus Sarkozy's agressive behaviour towards people living therein, & you have the ingredients for riots, & not only in Clichy-sous-Bois.

Oh god, this is the kind of argument I hate. Do you think blacks and arabs have no problem when they want to find a job in other countries ? Now, go and try to find a job in Algeria if you're the average white-french guy. Good luck.
Racism works in the two way. Do you think the average french dislike these people because they are black, or arab ? I'd rather say they dislike them because they hate France, they hate the French, they don't give a crap about rapping a girl, beating to death an old guy because he took a photo of their neighbourhood, and so on. Now, I have no problem with a lot of arabs/blacks. I live in a village with a high non-white population, and there's no serious trouble here (although most of the problems are due to guess what, arab people). But the guys rioting in Clichy should just - at worst - be put in jail until the end of their lives, or - at best - be bombed back to the stone age.
Right now, these cities aren't part of France. They have their own laws, their own customs, and if you don't respect them, you ought to be beaten quite badly if you're lucky, or killed if you're unlucky.

**Adrian II** · 11-02-2005, 20:30

Originally Posted by Meneldil

Right now, these cities aren't part of France.

That is what some Conservative Americans here said about New Orleans. Same attitude, same blindness to the truth. Of course places like Clichy are a part of your nation, culture and political make-up; they do not just grow on you overnight. The least you can say is that the rest of France -- the real France as you put it -- helped create them.

**Seamus Fermanagh** · 11-02-2005, 20:52

Come off it Adrian, you consistently posit this line of excrement that suggests that people should not be held responsible for their own actions. You repeatedly suggest that society is responsible for the antecedent conditions creating such incidents and imply that society therefore should just put up with them. This is errant nonsense.

France no more forced these disgruntled immigrants to riot than did the New Orleans PD force people to loot. The individuals involved chose to vent their anger in an illegal and violent fashion. They should take the appropriate punishment. If you are going to "go to the barricades" than you had best be prepared to accept the live fire coming back across them from the ruling authority -- that's how rioting and revolution is played.

Perhaps if humans were capable of communism like ants we wouldn't have any inequity or iniquity and we'd all live is some little socialist utopia. Since that's about as likely as Python's ervine aviation scheme, you could better spend your time thinking of some practical responses such as: limiting immigration, reducing taxes to creat jobs and grow the economy and maybe a little private gun ownership and training to enhance personal safety (that last is just for you Caeser 10).

**Adrian II** · 11-02-2005, 21:09

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Come off it Adrian, you consistently posit this line of excrement that suggests that people should not be held responsible for their own actions.

Find yourself another strawman.

**Meneldil** · 11-02-2005, 21:12

Originally Posted by AdrianII

That is what some Conservative Americans here said about New Orleans. Same attitude, same blindness to the truth. Of course places like Clichy are a part of your nation, culture and political make-up; they do not just grow on you overnight. The least you can say is that the rest of France -- the real France as you put it -- helped create them.

Adrian, do not misunderstand me. We (the French) are partly responsible for that situation. By housing all immigrants in a same place, my ancestors seriously screwed things up. But then, some people from these cities achieved to find a job, to get out of here, to found a familly, to create companies...How do you explain that ? If the wished to, they could get a real life. They just don't care about that. They spend their time doing nothing, or burning cars, attacking innocents, throwing stones at firemen and so on and live thanks to drug dealing and to our social system. Period. They are also responsible for their situation (and right now, they are probably more responsible than the average frenchman).

When I said this places were out of France, I meant that French laws aren't used here. They have their own laws, based on 'Honor', 'Respect' (as long as raping a girl is considered honorable), their own language and other nonsense like that. Policemen and Firemen are sometimes powerless.

**Adrian II** · 11-02-2005, 21:21

Originally Posted by Meneldil

Adrian, do not misunderstand me. We (the French) are partly responsible for that situation. By housing all immigrants in a same place, my ancestors seriously screwed things up.

Right, I believe some Communist mayors even contributed to that in order to 'create' a new, socially isolated and economically bereft electorate for themselves. Until French public opinion turned against migrants in the early eighties and began to vote for Le Pen. And those same Communist mayors began bulldozering those same migrant quarters to make place for 'honest' French workers... So do not misunderstand me either, it takes all sorts of idiots to create situations like that. For instance by 'giving up' on those gettos that are in the public eye right now, the French state compounded the problems of many honest migrants.

They have their own laws, based on 'Honor', 'Respect' (as long as raping a girl is considered honorable) and other nonsense like that.

I also believe there is a protest movement against such customs, led by women and youths from those same quarters. Ni pute, ni soumise, no?

Surely they are French in your book?

**Devastatin Dave** · 11-02-2005, 21:30

Originally Posted by AdrianII

That is what some Conservative Americans here said about New Orleans. Same attitude, same blindness to the truth. Of course places like Clichy are a part of your nation, culture and political make-up; they do not just grow on you overnight. The least you can say is that the rest of France -- the real France as you put it -- helped create them.

I have had bowel movements that had more substance than this rubbish you posted Adrian. Unbelievable....

**Meneldil** · 11-02-2005, 21:33

Well, if you ask me, my previous post (the one that could have been written by PJ, Kapo or any american fascist wannabe) sounds disgusting, even for me. I'm the first one to make fun of the people who make this kind of statement, but now, things are going too far.
I wouldn't say I'm not racist, because I think that right now, the Western culture is superior to other cultures. But this is not racism. (Most of) The people in these cities are just savages that deserve to be killed on sight. Whites included. Period. They have no values beside their own utterly limited, barbarian screwed up way of thinking.

Sure, we should do our best in order to help integration, to not build new ghetto cities. But we can't do anything realistic for the current ones, except destroying them, and getting ride of the people who're living here. There's no way they could integrate into the french society, get a job and have a decent life, respectful of their fellow countrymates.

Originally Posted by AdrianII

For instance by 'giving up' on those gettos that are in the public eye right now, the French state compounded the problems of many honest migrants.

Agreed.