US admits using white phosphorous as incendiary in Fallujah

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So, Aury, what do you suggest?

Facing a non-conventional force in a built-up urban area, especially when that non-conv force is purposefully mixed in with a (mostly) innocent civilian population, is a thorny tactical problem.

Do we:

1) Use WP to force everyone out, harming some civilians

2) Target HE on suspected/conjectured stong points, killing some civilians "collateraly"

3) Obliterate the entire area regardless of civilian casualties

4) Go door to door taking horrible losses ourselves and still getting civilians killed

5) Quit, let the guys who use civilians as shields win, and go home


If I had the precise intel necessary for #2 with a minimum of civilian risk I'd order that, but lacking it.....

[Hurin_Rules]

How about an option #6:

Don't conquer nations that hate you.

[Watchman]

Put this way: it's a bit odd to angrily ask what else you're supposed to do other than step on the paint after you've painted yourself into a corner.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Interesting how it always seems to come back to some variant on

Americani ite domum!

It's moments like these that make me wish we could and would. Perhaps ya'll need to see 8 years of a Pat Buchannan presidency.

[Just A Girl]

WHAT ARE YOU GUYS ARGUING ABOUT?

White phosperous Is NASTY.
You aint suposed to use it on people simple as,

Any 1 who thinks its ok Probably thinks Hiroshima was ok,
"Nuke the lot of them and thats the end of that."

Its babaric, although efective its fundimentaly wrong.
thats why rules are made to controll the usage of these things,

If America had signed and said we will play by the rules,
And iraq used White phosperous on Americans,
Could you imagine the up roar?

Thats not the case, So some of you are here saying the wepons are fine, Atleast less of our Soldiers died,

america seems to have decided they dont like the rules and have gone to play by them selfs again,


Some kids never make freinds do they :)

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Any 1 who thinks its ok Probably thinks Hiroshima was ok,
"Nuke the lot of them and thats the end of that."

Hiroshima saved lives.

If America had signed and said we will play by the rules,
And iraq used White phosperous on Americans,
Could you imagine the up roar?

Ah but we didnt. And do you think these people follow any rules?

america seems to have decided they dont like the rules and have gone to play by them selfs again,

Once again its America whos cheating while these brave insurgents go strictly by the rules. Get a grip.

Also why the hell are we investigating it then. We dont care right?

[Just A Girl]

Hiroshima saved lives.

do you think these people follow any rules?



Once again its America whos cheating while these brave insurgents go strictly by the rules. Get a grip.

Also why the hell are we investigating it then. We dont care right?

1 Hiroshima was Wrong Is wrong and people are still dying now,

2. Becous they dont follow rules Every 1 shoud neglect rules?
I think its you who should get a grip.

3. Your Investigating it becous Denying it did not work.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

1 Hiroshima was Wrong Is wrong and people are still dying now,

It was right. Also did you know its one of the healthiest places on earth to live? It seeems the bomb also killed wiped out a hell of a lot of germs.

2. Becous they dont follow rules Every 1 shoud neglect rules?
I think its you who should get a grip.

If Im in a fight with you for my life and your not following any rules Illl be damned if Im gonna follow any. This isnt a game of monopoly. Im gonna killl you anyway I can. And Ive been trained to do so

[Meneldil]

If Im in a fight with you for my life and your not following any rules Illl be damned if Im gonna follow any. This isnt a game of monopoly. Im gonna killl you anyway I can. And Ive been trained to do so

Always the same silly arguing. I'm fairly sure the Iraqi insurgency/AQ members are excusing their acts with the same argument. Way to go if you want foreign people to love america

[Just A Girl]

@ Gawain of orkney.
Well IMHO, its attitudes like yours that Cause situations where people get killed,

Its unfortunate that People hold Ignorant beliefs about life and How it is able to be taken away,

Lets just hope that people with your mental comprehention of desctruction and death dont ever get in to situations of power,

Its 1 thing to die,
Its a nother thing to live in pain and mizery for a nother 50 years becous some 1 said Who cares its a fight.

I supose ignorance is bliss,
Just a shame that i cant have the same ignorance on the matter as you seem to hold,

Its quite impressive

[Fragony]

Why bring up Hiroshima, that has absolutely nothing to do with the use of WP. In a conflict people get hurt, let's ban regular bullets now that we are on it, they hurt, let's do it oldschool with swords and axes. Wait, these hurt as well, oh why can't we just get along?

[Franconicus]

It was right. Also did you know its one of the healthiest places on earth to live? It seeems the bomb also killed wiped out a hell of a lot of germs.

Your cynism and arrogance is unbearable.

If Im in a fight with you for my life and your not following any rules Illl be damned if Im gonna follow any. This isnt a game of monopoly. Im gonna killl you anyway I can. And Ive been trained to do so

That is the reasons why the other nation do not want to follow the US any longer. Rules are made by the weak to keep the strong under control. They do it because there are usually so much more weak ones.

P.S.: Well spoken, Just A Girl. By the way, are you another personification of JAG?

[Fragony]

That is the reasons why the other nation do not want to follow the US any longer.

Doesn't your new chancelor Merkel want to bring back the love? France is also quite a flirt lately, and most of europe is flexing it's muscles because of the Iran issue. Europe wants so much but they secretily expect the USA to to the work, all the time, and it are the same peacefull beings that are now on the first rank to whine about the massacres in yugoslavia, I remember it fondly 'OH NO THEY ARE BOMBING TEH HORROR'. I kind of understand that the USA is getting kind of sick of that attitude.

[Franconicus]

You are right. Europe used to follow the US too long. Now they are not able to act on their own. But things can change. How much has changed the last 25 year.
I am a cold war kid and to me the US and its army still stands for freedom and democracy. However, I see that things have changed. The US are so used of fighting that they cannot see that the war is over.
And Merkel! If she wants to make love to the US it is fine. She can go there and stay there if she wants

[Fragony]

You are right. Europe used to follow the US too long. Now they are not able to act on their own. But things can change. How much has changed the last 25 year.
I am a cold war kid and to me the US and its army still stands for freedom and democracy. However, I see that things have changed. The US are so used of fighting that they cannot see that the war is over.
And Merkel! If she wants to make love to the US it is fine. She can go there and stay there if she wants

Of course we do, remember who your friends are, even the best friends have their issues from time to time. And our friends they are, here look,



That is what it took for us to have this argument.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Always the same silly arguing. I'm fairly sure the Iraqi insurgency/AQ members are excusing their acts with the same argument. Way to go if you want foreign people to love america

The same silly argument trying to compare our actions with those of the insurgents.If we used their tactics this would all be over by now.

Well IMHO, its attitudes like yours that Cause situations where people get killed,

Its unfortunate that People hold Ignorant beliefs about life and How it is able to be taken away,

Lets just hope that people with your mental comprehention of desctruction and death dont ever get in to situations of power,

Its 1 thing to die,
Its a nother thing to live in pain and mizery for a nother 50 years becous some 1 said Who cares its a fight.

I supose ignorance is bliss,
Just a shame that i cant have the same ignorance on the matter as you seem to hold,

Its quite impressive

Look Ive been to war and seen the faces of the dead. It is you who wallow in ignorance. I have no callous attitude towards war but I know the true harsh reality of it.

Your cynism and arrogance is unbearable.

Im neither. Thats a fact. I dont like the fact that so many people died. But it did indeed save far more lives than it cost. You see I unlike many of you live in the real world.

That is the reasons why the other nation do not want to follow the US any longer. Rules are made by the weak to keep the strong under control. They do it because there are usually so much more weak ones.

Well youve just pretty much described the UN and why it cant function.

[Strike For The South]

Finally I agree with Gawain agian the wrold is right.

[Just A Girl]

well i never knew youd been in the army gawain.
no wonder your a little brain washed, i supose it explains alot,
Your Sig for a start,

Note to self...
no point talking to gawain

[Ser Clegane]

well i never knew youd been in the army gawain.
no wonder your a little brain washed, i supose it explains alot,

I would appreciate if you would not indiscriminately insult all the (numerous, BTW) patrons on this board who served in the army.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Cleggy:

Thanks. I've never served, but I appreciate those who have.


Just':

All war is horrible -- yet we do not seem to be able to rid ourselves of it.

That having been said, neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki were the most horrific events of that war. Among bombings the "winner" is the Tokyo fire raid, which killed many more people than either A-weapon. Many HAVE argued that it ultimately saved lives, by preventing the hideous casualties -- on both sides -- to have been expected from an invasion of Japan.

Such weapons are indiscriminate area effect weapons, and the USA has spent much time and treasure since in developing precision weaponry that would not have such an effect.

Unless you would embrace non-violence at all times and in all things, some horrible things are bound to happen -- even when the cause is just.

[Redleg]

I would appreciate if you would not indiscriminately insult all the (numerous, BTW) patrons on this board who served in the army.

Thanks - I shall refrain from making the comment I was going to make.

[Franconicus]

Im neither. Thats a fact. I dont like the fact that so many people died. But it did indeed save far more lives than it cost. You see I unlike many of you live in the real world.

You'd like to discuss Hiroshima?

[Watchman]

So now it's down to the good old "the end justifies the means" again ? The favourite logic of the terrorist, the zealot and the tyrant. Well, that may indeed be so, at least when the dice are down; but don't expect the posteriety to like it.

[Just A Girl]

I would appreciate if you would not indiscriminately insult all the (numerous, BTW) patrons on this board who served in the army.

I dont beleve all soldiers are brain washed,
"Draged in to army style of thinking, where Killing is A good thing to do all of a suden "

Some are, Some were just like that in the begning.
and some are quite normal.
"just went for the money Hopeing never to see a war"

So im sorry if it sounded like i was saying All soldiers are brain washed,
I Just ment it helps explain to me why gawain is brain washed IMO,

"IMHO people who havent been brain washed shouldnt think things like, Hiroshima was ok It saved lives"

[Strike For The South]

Hiroshima was ok it saved many lives. Am I the only one who has who has those ww2 in color videos. Where after the Marines took the island the japenesse would jump off the rocks and kill themsleves. The bomb saved many more than it killed


oh and I just noticed something Just A Girl

[Redleg]

You'd like to discuss Hiroshima?

Sure - go right ahead. You might be surprised if you are not aware of all the reasons behind the decision. But if you have not read Truman's papers - don't bother to discuss it with me.

[Redleg]

I dont beleve all soldiers are brain washed,
"Draged in to army style of thinking, where Killing is A good thing to do all of a suden "

Some are, Some were just like that in the begning.
and some are quite normal.
"just went for the money Hopeing never to see a war"

So im sorry if it sounded like i was saying All soldiers are brain washed,
I Just ment it helps explain to me why gawain is brain washed IMO,

"IMHO people who havent been brain washed shouldnt think things like, Hiroshima was ok It saved lives"

So that is suppose to excuse you for making a generalization about all whol serve in the military.

Should I make a generalization about intelligence and sentence structure?

[Franconicus]

Sure - go right ahead. You might be surprised if you are not aware of all the reasons behind the decision. But if you have not read Truman's papers - don't bother to discuss it with me.

Oh Redleg,
Of course I see the dominance of your erudition and I would never dare to challenge you. Further more I know that my knowledge of spoken and written English is insufficient and so I won't bother you.

I only dared to ask Gawain for this exchange of arguments and hoped he would let me learn from his superior argumentations.

P.S.: The little I know about nukes is from university and my military service in a nuke unit.

[Redleg]

Oh Redleg,
Of course I see the dominance of your erudition and I would never dare to challenge you. Further more I know that my knowledge of spoken and written English is insufficient and so I won't bother you.

I only dared to ask Gawain for this exchange of arguments and hoped he would let me learn from his superior argumentations.

P.S.: The little I know about nukes is from university and my military service in a nuke unit.

I spent over 15 years in the Artillery (total combination of National Guard, Reserves, and Active) during that time I had over 8 years was with special weapons training.

Assembly, firing, destruction of the weapon, transportation, and effects. Plus extensive NBC training both the short and the long course. I have written several papers on the subject for both School and Military.

To adequately discuss the use of the weapons on Japan - you have to have studied some of the documents at the Truman Library - and some from the Japanese War archives. Most are available on the web in one form or another.

If your just after the emotional appeal argument of the morality of the use of the weapons - even that requires a little research into the archives.

[Just A Girl]

So that is suppose to excuse you for making a generalization about all whol serve in the military.

Should I make a generalization about intelligence and sentence structure?

Im sorry if your interpretation of my statment offended you,
But i doubt that is my fault,