islam question

[VAE VICTUS]

in america a great curiosity in islam has awakened,while listening to a iman,preacher(not sure what they are called) and his basic sermon was a rip on christianity(he was supposed to be explaining islam) he stated that muslims were relatively spotless when compared to christians. although this very well may be true,have muslims ever spilled innocent blood?(the answer has to be yes,but any specific accounts would be greatly appreciated).

[Adrian II]

in america a great curiosity in islam has awakened,while listening to a iman,preacher (not sure what they are called) and his basic sermon was a rip on christianity (he was supposed to be explaining islam) he stated that muslims were relatively spotless when compared to christians. although this very well may be true,have muslims ever spilled innocent blood?(the answer has to be yes,but any specific accounts would be greatly appreciated).

Some basic research would suffice to demonstrate that the imam/mullah was horribly ill-advised. You can easily do that research yourself, Brother Vae Victus. If you want to discuss the history of Islam, please be more specific. If you want to discuss the imam's views and motives, this thread might be more appropriate for the Backroom.


EDIT
My Sticky for historical websites gives all the necessary leads. This site Web Resources for the Study of Islam was originally suggested by Brother Mouzafphaerre.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
In addition to that, a semi-extensive Google -or else- search will lead to several websites with searchable and classified Kuran translations (not only in English) and reliable hadith collections.
.

[tsyed]

For reading the Qur'an, I'd recommend the 'The Noble Qur'an' software from Islamasoft. Quraan.com has the online version of the same translation.

For Hadith (Prophetic traditions), once again, Islamasoft has something called, aptly enough, 'The Hadith Software'. If you wish to view them online, I would recommend you give the excellent USC MSA website a visit. Four of the six major Hadith collections are there - Bukhari, Muslim, Malik's Muwatta, and Abu Dawud. Before you actually browse the collections, read that page and the topics under 'the Science of Hadith' to give you the proper perspective on how Muslims use Hadith, and how they have been transmitted.

Enjoy your readings!

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Thanks for the website.
.

[BalkanTourist]

There is a really good book that I read recently - A Time of Violence. Although a fiction it closely depicts the 17th century forced islamization of the Rhodope mountains in Bulgaria by the Ottoman Turks. Faced with a decline after the siege of Vienna, the Ottomans turned on their christian subjects who were left to worship their religion before. In the story, a janissary who was taken by a Bulgarian village in the Rhodopes comes back with a detachment to convert the whole region to the "true" faith. The plot is just heart breaking and there is a lot of blood to be shed in this beautiful place high in the mountains. There were three villages before Karaibrahim came, two were annihilated and one remained which now had the remaining Bulgarians joining the new faith.
The Turks would come to a village and would gather everyone at the central plaza. There'd be two ways - the right way where turbans and women's muslim clothes awaited and the left way with a log and an axe. You keep your faith - you lose your head, you keep your head - you lose your faith. There are about 200,000 Bulgarians left who are isolated in the Rhodope mountains to the south of Bulgaria. They speak no Turkish, but are moslems. They are discendant of the ones forcibly converted and are called Pomaks. Some of them are turning back to christianity, yet some are falling under the influence of islamic fundamentalists from Saudi Arabia, who set up madrasas (religious schools) teaching intolerance against christians.

[Just A Girl]

You cant just say Islamic like that and Tar all islamic people with the same brush.

Some Beleve in islamic Pluralism, They Embrace music,
These good people, And they ARE good people, Arent people who go terrorizing people.
They sing about the love of god and i concider them to be Purer than Christians. (cos cristians Killed Many people to force there religion in to such a high % of belevers), "after all if you had a choice, Renounce your faith or be burned alive... What would you do?"

but Other islamic groups Condem music.
and just like the christians did are attacking other religions They deem to be Wrong,

Please define which Islamic group you mean.


Here is a Quote from. the holy book of Qur'an

"Believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabaeans -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right -- shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear or to regret." Qur'an 2:62


P.s

Maby this would be beter suited in the backroom.

[Samurai Waki]

A good former friend of mine (lost contact) came to the US to study mechanical engineering. I once asked him what he thought about americans, christians, and jews. He told me that America was a terrible place, it was full of "non believers"...yet it was still the greatest place he has ever been and wouldn't want it to change otherwise. He said that at least in the US you had a choice wether to be a muslim or not. He said that most people in Iran that he knew where secretly atheist, and the gap in Iran continuously grows between the fervent and the spiteful. His grandmother would pray for forgiveness every day for being born a muslim, and even though he was continuously told throughout his life that Islam is the greatest religion in the world, in the underground of Iranian society it is widely hated for bringing them so much misery.
Eventually he ran into an Imam who was teaching a more moderate form of shi'ite Islam, of course he had been downcasted from teaching Islam because of his "liberal" views, he told them to continue their lives as normal, go to the mosques, but do not listen to the state sponsored mullahs or Imams, they teach a perverted form of the religion, much like the Catholics did during the 14th-15th century, but Iran and the muslim world will eventually have their "Martin Luther" who will shake the very foundation of muslim society, and the bondage that muslims have endured for the last 1400 years will be lifted. He said he had learned the real Islam and embraces it for it's openness, and peaceful nature towards every man and woman, Islam...Christian...Jew or not at all.
I think this radical form of Islam is just a phase, it will die out in time, and be replaced with something better. I think history will repeat itself, and the Islamic dark age will eventually turn into an age of enlightenment. Discontent is growing in the underground, especially in Iran. American...or allied invasion will not be necessary I think, but he believes, and I believe as well that in our lifetime that nations like Iran will throw off their shackles and sieze power for themselves. Perhaps not in the same form that happened in the west, but in a similar fashion (Spanish Inquistion anyone). I do not think that radicalism can last for long before it wears itself out. and Muslims at heart are peace loving and kind.

Kind Regards,
~Waki

[Just A Girl]

and Muslims at heart are peace loving and kind.

Kind Regards,
~Waki

This is correct.
But it all depends on wich Islamic teachings they belive in.

As i said in my previous post,
Some are true to their religion WHICH has NEVER said music is bad or other religions are bad.,

"The belief in Allah, God, Jehovah Or what ever other name you would give the almighty Is all you need to have"


And then there are some who have been taught A different interpretation of the religion,
Where they Condem music and other forms of religion, Which is basically what happens to all religions at some time or another,
But as you said,
as In the case of other religions This could just be a passing phase Which will eventually Give in to enlightenment,

[Weebeast]

When people relate America with being free it's the freedom to choose religion. That's true. In Indonesia bunch of muslim fanatics could just close a bar without asking proper law and stuff.

Anyway, don't listen to 'sermon,' just read the holybook[s] yourself.

[Leet Eriksson]

Muslim preachers (Da'ya/Da'ia, singular, Du'aa, plural) usually talk about the benefits of converting to islam and not ripping on other religions.

Your best bet is ignoring them, i been in debates, its pretty unfortunate some people are very blind and hate other becuase of their religion.

[ajaxfetish]

You cant just say Islamic like that and Tar all islamic people with the same brush.

. . .

i concider them to be Purer than Christians. (cos cristians Killed Many people to force there religion in to such a high % of belevers), "after all if you had a choice, Renounce your faith or be burned alive... What would you do?"

Perhaps Muslims aren't the only ones who shouldn't be lumped together and stereotyped?

Ajax

[Papewaio]

When people relate America with being free it's the freedom to choose religion. That's true. In Indonesia bunch of muslim fanatics could just close a bar without asking proper law and stuff.

Anyway, don't listen to 'sermon,' just read the holybook[s] yourself.

How many bars in Indonesia have you been to?

[kataphraktoi]

Keep it simple:

You want to know what a religion/belief system is? Just read their sacred texts and form a conclusion yourself.

You've got to divorce what the sacred texts stand for and what believers do to form your own opinion.

If I was to listen to stupid Mullahs calling for the destruction of Israel of the face of the earth, i would think that Islam was a militant belief system. If you read the Quran, however, it is not so much militant, but more a complete way of lfie that specifies principles, values and beliefs to live by. Likewise, if all I saw were Christian televangelists telling me that I'm not doing God's will if I don't blow my salary to help purchase their gold watches and plush grand church buildings, I'd think that Christianity was one great big con-man's paradise. If you read the Bible, principles such as forgiveness and unconditional love are proscribed as ways to live. The world certainly needs more forgiveness and unconditional love nowadays.

[Watchman]

A few centuries after the death of Gautama Bussha, a Sri Lankan prince mounted a Buddhist relic on his spear and went on a crusade against his Hindu neighbors. And the Buddhist monasteries of Japan used to sort out their dogmatic disputed with private armies.

The moral of the story ?

It doesn't really matter what a faith teaches - sooner or later someone will kill in its name, and feel extremely pious and justified in doing so. And let's not even get started on the liberties that sooner or later get taken with interpretations for the sake of temporal expediency - the convoluted arguments the Church had to develop to resolve the glaringly obvious discrepancy between the ideals of the warrior class and its masters on one side and the pacifistic ideals of Christianity are a good example of that. Well, actually, it was rather older - regardless of what had once been taught, it became necessary for a Christian to be capable of being a soldier the second the Roman Empire went Christian and had to be defended against invading pagans...
Well, you get the idea. Nothing, but nothing, drags down the noblest of ideals like the practical necessities of an uncaring reality.

[ajaxfetish]

Well put.

Ajax

[VAE VICTUS]

This is correct.
But it all depends on wich Islamic teachings they belive in.

As i said in my previous post,
Some are true to their religion WHICH has NEVER said music is bad or other religions are bad.,
,

paganism is well, many different religions, if i am correct the Q'uran denounces pagans as unbelievers.

[Leet Eriksson]

paganism is well, many different religions, if i am correct the Q'uran denounces pagans as unbelievers.

Well everyone denounces pagans as unbelievers anyway

but nothing is wrong with someone calling you unbeliever, as long as you believe in something just ignore them.

[Just A Girl]

Perhaps Muslims aren't the only ones who shouldn't be lumped together and stereotyped?

Ajax

It was a responce to the question,

but i guess its hypocrytical

[Kraxis]

Wazikashi, I doubt that there will ever be a muslim Martin Luther.
The dogma of Islam is more set in stone than the one of christianity ever was. Not because it is more invasive, but because the words of Quran are considered the perfect words of Allah. Thus they can't be altered ever, and any line in it is holy.
So what Martin Luther did, that is to deal with a few rather odd points is not possible. His more political, or should we say anti-political issues would also be problematic as Islam is political in nature where Christianity has seen the church TRY to make it politcal without a proper background (it couldn't fall back on holy scriptures and was thus more easily attacked by people like ML).

I think it is up to each muslim out there to form his own opinion if we are to see any change, and in many countries they do so. People are in general pragmatic and fair, they know that hate is not way forward.
Why do you think that we see western muslims be part of society and actually like being citizens of whatever country they are in? Because they are just like you and me and understands that certain aspects of religion is not all that great.

Besides ML was a pigheaded bigot (despite being a social visionary), and I most certainly wouldn't like his muslim counterpart to pop up now. That would be extremely dangerous.

[yesdachi]

Keep it simple:

You want to know what a religion/belief system is? Just read their sacred texts and form a conclusion yourself.

I agree to a point but not completely. The “sacred texts” are sometimes tough to read. As an example many phrases in the bible have been interpreted to mean multiple things. I have participated in a few bible studies and after hearing the way others understood some of the phrases it amazed me how our own experiences cloud the way we understand things we read (note: I don’t blindly trust what the study leader suggested was the true interpretation either, one reason I don’t go anymore). I would recommend a combination of both reading and discussing. (Another note: knowing a religion/belief is often a bit different than knowing the practice of the religion/belief.)

[kataphraktoi]

When I referred to sacred texts, I mean the parts that are discernible and clear, not the controversial, more esoteric stuff.

Eg. Love your neighbour.

Easy enough to understand. Unless someone manages to turn it into a justification of homosexuality.

It is true that practical realities force revisions of spiritual perspectives but that is the problem. But some religions advocated non-entrenchment within the social system: politics, army, etc, etc.

Martin Luther was funny. He's like an irascible irritable fanatic senior citizen.

Gosh. WHy doesnt everyone just forgive each other....maybe if we did we wouldn't hav3e Total War.

[Incongruous]

Deos anyone know why people seem to think it ok to bash Christians but when someone bash's Islam Lefty's and Righty's alike bring out the heavy artillery?

[Watchman]

'Cause Christianity is pretty much something of an "our thing" - so it's okay for us to diss it too. Islam is not "our thing"; it's somebody elses, and that somebody often takes it quite seriously (certainly more so than we thoroughly secularized, cynical, godless Westerners tend to take ours) - so it would be quite rude to diss it, all the more so as our firsthand knowledge tends to be limited indeed.

I for one am perfectly okay with Muslims themselves hitting it with big hammers if they want to, though. That's just a sign of healthy growth.

[Weebeast]

How many bars in Indonesia have you been to?

I don't know, not many. I'm not into crowded places that much. Why?

[The Wizard]

When people relate America with being free it's the freedom to choose religion. That's true. In Indonesia bunch of muslim fanatics could just close a bar without asking proper law and stuff.

Anyway, don't listen to 'sermon,' just read the holybook[s] yourself.

Indonesia is one of the most liberal of the Muslim countries.

And Tarrak, my friend -- already in the 9th centuries Muslim philosophers and scientists established the fact that the Qur'an was written down by people. Not by Muhammad, and not by God, but by people who wrote down what Muhammad had said.

Therefore, the Qur'an could be wrong. And therefore, in the 9th century, when the Church was just beginning to slip into its decadence and revelry after having been granted power by the Carolingians, Islam determined that if there ever was any doubt to be expressed on the text of the Qur'an by scientific discoveries, then those discoveries and not the text of the Qur'an should get precedence.

[Adrian II]

Deos anyone know why people seem to think it ok to bash Christians (..)

It is not OK to bash Christians here and it never has been. People have been warned and berated for it, some have termporarily lost editing, forum access and other privileges because of it. Offensive posts have been deleted or corrected by moderators, posters have apologised for bad posts, and the whole matter has been amply discussed here and in the Watchtower to make doubly sure that everyone got the message.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

And Tarrak, my friend -- already in the 9th centuries Muslim philosophers and scientists established the fact that the Qur'an was written down by people. Not by Muhammad, and not by God, but by people who wrote down what Muhammad had said.

That's definitely against the foundation of Islamic faith. The Qur'an was reveletad to the Prophet in divine meaning and transmitted to human intelligibility in his speaking. As the verses came down, they were immediately dictated by him to secretaries responsible for doing that specific job. It is God's word, it is unfailable and it can't be wrong. Anything out of these bundaries is also out of Islamic faith.
.

[Papewaio]

In Indonesia bunch of muslim fanatics could just close a bar without asking proper law and stuff.

How many bars in Indonesia have you been to?

I don't know, not many. I'm not into crowded places that much. Why?

Well off the top of my head of have gone to at least eight.

4 in Jakarta, 2 in Sumatra and the rest in Borneo.

I have drank with Muslims... just like Christians they will break with the strictly fundamental viewpoints and/or do 'the wrong thing'... I have also taken a very drunk Muslim friend home to have his two wives with arms crosses, standing on their front porch tapping their feet in disgust with their husband... me and the other geos made a hasty retreat at that point like whipped dogs.

In fact I drank more alcohol in Indonesia and had easier access to it in shopping centres then I did in Kalgoolie... which ain't light on beer.

Yes fanatics do lots of things like blow people up... one has to remember that a country that has the population of USA and a capital city with a population almost as much as Australia has in total that you will get a whole diverse spectrum of people.

From my time I worked in Indonesia they are some of the nicest, friendly and easy going people. That is the vast majority that I had day to day dealings with... all the locals dislike the Javanese though due to the amount of explotation... but it was more like the way we view our politicans then any real level of hatred.

So I would say take a look at your local newspaper... imagine if your locality was judged by all the morons and violent idiots... would it be an accurate discripton or inaccurate to base all ones views on them?

[Weebeast]

Indonesia is one of the most liberal of the Muslim countries.

Well not everywhere really. Trust me, I was born there, lived there for more than 16 years. I went to school. I was born muslim (technically still muslim now as I never converted to anything else although you can argue I'm an infidel). I can say it's still equally populated by both. You know people there get 'religion education' at school, right? That's not liberation.

From my time I worked in Indonesia they are some of the nicest, friendly and easy going people. That is the vast majority that I had day to day dealings with... all the locals dislike the Javanese though due to the amount of explotation...

That's true. Most people in urban places like tourists/ guests. You said the locals dislike Javanese so you're not in Java then? Where were you, may I ask?

It's very easy to get alcohol - not to mention you don't need ID's in first place, but that's more of a goverment thing than religion.

I was just saying that in America is much more "free" and fun whether or not you have a religion. The fact is Indonesia is still that extreme. I never said, "Oh all Indonesians are bunch of stupid zealots." I know it's pretty diverse - not to mention there are other major religions there such as Christianity, Hinduism, Budhism. I know damn well that my family is pretty diverse as my christian aunt celebrates christmas.

Wazikashi, I doubt that there will ever be a muslim Martin Luther.
The dogma of Islam is more set in stone than the one of christianity ever was. Not because it is more invasive, but because the words of Quran are considered the perfect words of Allah. Thus they can't be altered ever, and any line in it is holy.

Everytime a muslim does something, that person says "Bismillahi Rahmanir Rohhim[sp]" which means "in the name of Allah, the giver, the lover." It is also mentioned somewhere that Allah always forgives. It is also said Allah is the best of the best which translates than Allah could be the most understanding ...thing. It means in some circumstances you may do something a little different than what's written in the book. For example, muslims can't eat pork but why? They say it's dirty but it's not the same anymore like back in the days. We have food inspector now. Also beef and chicken are more expensive than pork (at least at Safeways). Then again, I'm just an infidel.