WW2 with different outcomes

[Kagemusha]

I have brought this up before. But i like to repeat myself. In the Eastern front at fall 1941. If the Finish forces would have cutted the Murmansk Railroad that was the main supply line for the American supplies that basicly kept Russia alive for the Winter 1941 and until fall 1942. I believe the Soviet Union would have grumbled. Also Finland could have helped in the attack against Russia´s second largest city and the home of the communist revolution Leningrad, but didnt fire a single artillery shell in the city. At the winter 1941 the only supply line to Leningrad was the Ice road over Lake Ladoga,which was under the Finish artillery range,but again Finish troops didnt attack a single time against the supply colums. The falling of Leningrad would have been catastrophy to SU. We have to remember that 1/4 of the Whole German armies at the Russia were at the Army group North. If these forces could have been pointed towards Moscow on spring 1942. I dont believe that the defenders of the city could have had much chances.

[Upxl]

The falling of Leningrad would have been catastrophy to SU.

Leningrad was nothing more then a symbolic target.
The true power of the SU lied more south/east.

It was the discussion Hitler had with his generals.
They wanted to attack the soviet supplies of raw materials and oil reserves.
Hitler wanted to Capture Leningrad to show the world he had crushed the SU.
Just another fatal mistake in a long line of military errors.

But to get back to the subject.

WW II was lost to the axes from the very beginning.
The 2 fatal mistakes Hitler never should have made:

*Attacking the Soviet Union: This was one of the most critical events that took place.
Because the Russians didn’t join the Allies to distribute the final punches in the 1st WW,
the Germans never did learn the lesson of the weight of a 2front war.


*Failing to invade England:

He left the Europe war scene without completing it.
Leaving behind a weakened but nevertheless dangerous enemy.
At the battle of Britain the little *prick* should have stayed destroying the Raf’s infrastructure.

All the decisions and event’s that came afterwards wouldn’t have made much difference.
The war could have lasted longer or be more disastrous, but the Axes would still have lost it.

(Language... though only mild. -Kraxis)

[Kagemusha]

Leningrad was nothing more then a symbolic target.
The true power of the SU lied more south/east.

It was the discussion Hitler had with his generals.
They wanted to attack the soviet supplies of raw materials and oil reserves.
Hitler wanted to Capture Leningrad to show the world he had crushed the SU.
Just another fatal mistake in a long line of military errors.

But to get back to the subject.

WW II was lost to the axes from the very beginning.
The 2 fatal mistakes Hitler never should have made:

*Attacking the Soviet Union: This was one of the most critical events that took place.
Because the Russians didn’t join the Allies to distribute the final punches in the 1st WW,
the Germans never did learn the lesson of the weight of a 2front war.


*Failing to invade England:

He left the Europe war scene without completing it.
Leaving behind a weakened but nevertheless dangerous enemy.
At the battle of Britain the little *prick* should have stayed destroying the Raf’s infrastructure.

All the decisions and event’s that came afterwards wouldn’t have made much difference.
The war could have lasted longer or be more disastrous, but the Axes would still have lost it.

(Language... though only mild. -Kraxis)

I would have to disagree.Leningrad was the second largest city of the Soviet Union.It also guarded the Northern railway line from Murmansk to Siberia where the Soviets builded up the industry to create weapons for the eventual counter attack against Germans in 1942-1945. If you look at the railway network of Russia you understand what i mean.About the attack on SU.If the Germans wouldnt have attacked SU.Soviet Union would have attacked Germany.
I think that the first starategig level error for the Germans was to attack Moscow in 1941. Hitlers generals proposed an creation of an defensive line in september,but Hitler did not listened. The initial German attack at 1941 drove infact too deep to Russia,If they would have stopped the attack before the weather conditions failed the attack.The first Soviet counter attack would have failed and the Germans could have continued their main assault on Army group center and North during spring 1942.
I agree that the Hitlers decision to target the cities of England instead of terminating the RAF was a huge mistake that eventually costed the Germans the whole Battle of Britain in the end.
About the WWI.The reason why the Russia didnt join in the final attack against Germany was,that the Russian Armies was already utterly beaten by the Germans. And infact Russia was in the middle of civil war at that point.

[Upxl]

I would have to disagree.Leningrad was the second largest city of the Soviet Union.It also guarded the Northern railway line from Murmansk to Siberia

If you look at the production/economy scale of +/- 1940 you’ll see that almost everything (almost 80%)of Russian production/resources lied mid/east.
Iron/steal, machine industry, oil, coal, … Leningrad was really small potatoes compared to Moscow and beyond.
This was really the heart of the SU production capability.

where the Soviets builded up the industry to create weapons for the eventual counter attack against Germans in 1942-1945.

Not that I don’t believe you,…
But could you give me any sources on the matter?

I think that the first starategig level error for the Germans was to attack Moscow in 1941.

It wasn’t really a strategic error to order the advance on Moscow.
The error laid more in the fact that Hitler ordered to reinforce the army groups north and south at the cost of Von Bock’s (Central)army.
At this point Hitler ordered the advance on Moscow to a halt.
When the order eventually came it was to late, the greatest SU ally (winter) was at the door.

About the WWI.The reason why the Russia didnt join in the final attack against Germany was,that the Russian Armies was already utterly beaten by the Germans. And infact Russia was in the middle of civil war at that point.

I could be wrong about this,…
But didn’t the comies just took control of the SU?
And wasn’t this the reason they signed a peace treaty with Germany?


Anyway I don’t think that any scenario would’ve given the Germans victory over the SU.
It’s the same problem the Japanese had with China.
Just to f… big.
If they had crushed Leningrad and Moscow and the more southern industry, they still couldn’t get a total victory over the SU.
It would be the same scenario as they had with Britain.
Weakend? Yes. Destroyed? Forget it!

[Kraxis]

Lenin and his buddies did take over the Provisional Government, but they basically only held sway in Leningrad initially. They needed time to consolidate their position, even if a civil war had never happened. Thus they made peace with Germany as at the time the Germans could basically have marched all the way to Vladivostok if need be since all the Russian soldiers were going home. A peace was needed.

Then came all the trouble of the civil war and the events just prior to that, so there was no chance that SU would have been able to rejoin the war ever.

[Upxl]

Thnx for the info.
This was a mayor gap in my inner history book.

Either way, the Germans never learned the lesson what raw Soviet power could do to a nation’s army.

[Watchman]

Want an "alternate history" scenario ? Whe the Finnish Civil War wound down in 1918 the Bolsheviks were still in a very precarious position in St. Petersburg (it took them quite a few years of Russian Civil War to take over the whole country) and the newly blooded Finnish "White" army was rather close by, due to having only recently chased the beaten Finnish "Reds" to the border. Marshal Mannerheim even opened negotiations with the Russian "White" generals on the topic of marching in and getting rid of the "Bolshevik rabble" (an aristocrat, conservative and a former senior officer of the Imperial Russian Army, Mannerheim was no friend of the revolutionaries). The latter, however, for some unfathomable reason were unwilling to unconditionally recognize the already de facto independence of Finland - something Lenin and the Boys, running on total crisis management mode, had been about the first in the world to do.

So Mannerheim called the whole thing off, and Finnish participation in the Russian Civil War was limited to some over-enthusiastic volunteers trying to 'liberate' the Finnish-speaking populaces of a few border areas in the so-called "Tribal Wars". The Red Army duly chased them off right quick once they could spare the troops from dealing with the Whites.

The "what if" scenario should be obvious...