The Other Gitmo: Where's the Outrage?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The Other Gitmo: Where's the Outrage?
By Mary Anastasia O'Grady | The Wall Street Journal
October 7, 2005; Page A17 | Conditions at the prison at Guantánamo are inhumane. Inmates are deprived their right to religious worship, receive scant nutrition and suffer constant verbal and physical abuse from guards. It's a humanitarian outrage.

I refer, of course, to Castro's Guantánamo Provincial Prison in Cuba proper, the prison across the fence from the U.S. naval base compound holding the terrorists. Fidel's lock-up makes the U.S. prison look like a five-star tropical resort.

Torture, deprivation and isolation of political prisoners at the "other" Guantánamo -- or at any of Fidel's gulags across the island -- are no secret. They've been loudly denounced by prisoners' families and reported by Cuba's independent journalists. But foreign journalists have paid little attention. It seems they're too busy shredding their hankies over whether enemy combatants at the naval base have enough honey glaze on their chicken.

International apathy toward the plight of the political prisoners is just what Fidel Castro counts on. As the dissident movement has expanded in the past decade, El Maximo Lider has found it necessary to strike at it with excessive force from time to time. But when his repression becomes too public, he has to back off. [Castro's Guant[aacute]namo]

A hunger strike at the Guantánamo prison, which ended earlier this week, makes the point. Political prisoners Victor Arroyo and Felix Navarro stopped eating on Sept. 10 and 13 respectively, to protest the extreme cruelty administered by Guantánamo prison director Lt. Col. Jorge Chediak Pérez and "rehabilitation" expert Juan Armesto.

As the strike headed toward a fourth week, dozens of Cuban human rights advocates from all over the island were on their way to the prison in a show of solidarity. On Sept. 29, the EU called on the government to "improve the conditions of detention of these individuals and other political prisoners who are being held in circumstances that fall below the U.N. Minimum Standards for the Treatment of Prisoners."

On Monday, as the strikers showed no sign of relenting, Fidel blinked. The two men were removed from Guantánamo. Mr. Arroyo was taken away in an ambulance because he was so feeble, while Mr. Navarro traveled by car. Sources on the island say that Mr. Arroyo is now at the prison hospital in Holguin and Mr. Navarro is at the prison hospital in Bayamo.

In an honest world, the cases of Mr. Arroyo and Mr. Navarro would have raised an international outcry a long time ago. The men were arrested along with more than 70 others in the regime's March 2003 crackdown on journalists, opposition leaders, librarians and writers. All were taken into custody, given summary trials and handed extreme sentences.

A review of the 53-year-old Mr. Arroyo's arrest record shows the regime's pathetic paranoia. One example: In 2000 he was jailed for possessing some toys that he planned to distribute to poor children. The charge? "Hoarding public goods." His real crimes are for things like being director of the Union of Independent Cuban Journalists and Writers and managing one of the most important independent libraries in the country. In March 2003, Mr. Arroyo was working as a journalist in Pinar del Río, when he was detained. On April 7, 2003, he was sentenced to 26 years in prison for "acts against state security."

Mr. Navarro, who is 52-years-old, has an equally "dangerous" profile. An educator for some 20 years, in 1999 he founded the Pedro Luis Boitel Democracy Movement, which led to numerous arrests. His April 2003 conviction for "acts against state security" won him a 25 year sentence.

Mr. Navarro's identification with the heroic Boitel explains a lot about the prisoners and about Fidel's decision to yield to their strike. Boitel was a close prison friend of Armando Valladares, who spent 22 years in Cuban gulags. In his memoir, "Against All Hope," Mr. Valladares wrote of Boitel that he was "the most rebellious of Cuban political prisoners." In 1972, he had gone on a hunger strike to protest prison conditions. After 47 days of no food Boitel was gravely ill. But it was Castro's decision to deny him water that sealed his fate. He died on day 53.

Later, according to Mr. Valladares, the prisoners learned that Castro had given the order to "get rid of Boitel so he wouldn't make anymore [expletive] trouble." In a telephone conversation from Miami this week, Mr. Valladares reminded me that through it all "the international community kept silent."

Like Mr. Valladares and Boitel before them, Messrs. Arroyo and Navarro protested Guantánamo's filth, beatings, bad food, lack of water and use of common criminals to terrorize political prisoners. And like their predecessors, their complaints were met with violence.

In December 2003, Mr. Arroyo's opinions earned him a savage beating by three jailers, who also slammed a door on his leg to cripple him. In September 2004, when he was told his cell would be searched, he asked to be present to ensure that nothing would be planted. For that request, the food that had been brought by his family was confiscated and his few belongings trashed. He was then placed in a "punishment cell," which is a solitary confinement cell too small to lie down in, with no windows and a steel door. He was kept there for 15 days. Mr. Navarro was also thrown in the punishment cells for objecting to inhumane conditions.

The men wrote letters to the government to draw attention to ruthlessness of Armesto and jailer Chediak Perez, but to no avail. That's when they took up the mantle of Boitel.

Castro didn't respond until it looked like the strikers might embarrass him by dying. On Tuesday, Mr. Arroyo's sister reported that Cuban officials in Holguin promised him "a just treatment." But the fact that it had to go so far before the Castro would agree to basic humanitarian principles reveals much about the dictator that so many Americans admire

Yet all we constantly here is how great Cuba is and how terrible the US is. Talk about hypocrisy.

[Xiahou]

But Gawain, they have free healthcare!

[Watchman]

It's a (purportedly) communist (definitely) dictatorship. Nobody expects too much of it.

The US, last I checked, wasn't. See the difference ?

[Kanamori]

The reputation of a State does not change the morality or immorality of its actions. The difference of reputation is moot to that point. That Cuba has done worse than gitmo for decades seems to increase the hypocrisy of those who ignore them and critisize the US. The point is that people should be putting more pressure on them for their worse and continued harms, but they do not.

[Devastatin Dave]

Since the Media tend to tilt to the left and many leftists have a boner for the ever-so-lovable Castro, you won't hear much about it. But of course, they also have free healthcare as its been pointed out earlier in this thread!!!

[Papewaio]

So the defense is that Cuba has done the equivalent?

Are you saying that the USA has social/moral/political parity with Cuba?

That USA's best defence is to compare itself to a nation itself considers a social pariah?

Wow

[Goofball]

The reputation of a State does not change the morality or immorality of its actions. The difference of reputation is moot to that point. That Cuba has done worse than gitmo for decades seems to increase the hypocrisy of those who ignore them and critisize the US. The point is that people should be putting more pressure on them for their worse and continued harms, but they do not.

China has been a far worse human rights offender than Cuba for years, but that hasn't stopped the U.S. from falling all over itself trying to do business with China's huge potential market. I'm not saying my own country is not guilty of the same thing, but at least we aren't trying to tell people not to do business with Cuba on humanitarian grounds, then ignoring the same principle elsewhere just because there is a bigger profit in it.

What the hell is the point of this thread?

Yes Gawain, Cuba is a worse human rights violator than the U.S.

Happy?

[Tribesman]

Again allegation only without proof. Nevermind that the AQ handbook tells them all to say they were tortured
Still the same old rubbish Gawain after all this time , now could you please tell us , was this the Al-Qaida handbook that is written by an Ex-US special forces NCO or the Al-Qaida handbook that was bought from a Californian Survivalist/militia bookstore ?

[Slyspy]

It's a (purportedly) communist (definitely) dictatorship. Nobody expects too much of it.

The US, last I checked, wasn't. See the difference ?

Bingo, we have a winner and so early in the thread!

BTW with the US (in fact any Western democracy) the very possibility of such things is as bad as the fact. Lets face it there has never been any convincing legal let alone moral explantation for the necessity of Gitmo.

[Meneldil]

Well, that's how I see it :

The US keep claiming they are the 'good ones', that they want to spread democracy accross the middle-east, that they protect human rights and all that.
Yet, in reality, you see that they lie to the rest of the world to invade a foreign country, they erase cities from the face of earth with white phosphorus, put people who have not been proved guilty in jail for years and years, torture their prisonners or send them in dictatorship so they can be tortured by the local people, support some of the cruelest dictators on earth, and so on.

Now, you might try to deny it, but facts are here. A country that claims to be the White Knight of the modern world will obviously be judged on higher standards than the dictator of a poor, powerless country.

[Slyspy]

Bingo, we have a winner and so early in the thread!

BTW with the US (in fact any Western democracy) the very possibility of such things is as bad as the fact. Lets face it there has never been any convincing legal let alone moral explantation for the necessity of Gitmo.

Please read again. This time read the words. Thankyou.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Are you speaking to me? All youve done here is state your opinion.

[Watchman]

Can you say pwnd?

Eh, granted. My bad, should've read it more carefully. Okay, lessee now...

Martin Mubanga, another of the four British detainees transferred to UK custody and released a little over 24 hours later has alleged that in June 2004 he was subjected to the following treatment while shackled and lying on the floor of an interrogation room in Guantánamo:

"I needed the toilet and I asked the interrogator to let me go. But he just said ‘you’ll go when I say so’. I told him he had five minutes to get me to the toilet or I was going to go on the floor. He left the room. Finally, I squirmed across the floor and did it in the corner, trying to minimize the mess. I suppose he was watching through a one-way mirror or the CCTV camera. He comes back with a mop and dips it in the pool of urine. Then he starts covering me with my own waste, like he’s using a big paint-brush, working methodically, beginning with my feet and ankles, and working his way up my legs. All the while, he’s racially abusing me, cussing me: ‘Oh, the poor little negro, the poor little nigger.’ He seemed to think it was funny".(313)

Martin Mubanga, arrested in Zambia, transferred to Guantánamo in May 2002, and affirmed as an "enemy combatant" by the CSRT in October 2004, also described the use of temperature manipulation during interrogations, as well as isolation, withdrawal of "comfort items", beatings and other physical abuse at the detention facility.

Since the Rasul decision in June 2004, some Guantánamo detainees have been visited by lawyers representing them for their habeas corpus appeals in US courts. Some of what the detainees have said has been declassified in recent weeks, providing the first chance for their accounts of what they have been through to be made public. Unclassified details of the alleged treatment of Bahraini detainee Jum’ah Mohammad Abdul Latif Al Dossari and others are given below, as provided to Amnesty International by the lawyers for the detainees:

"Mr Al Dossari was arrested in Pakistan and held by Pakistani authorities for several weeks. Mr Al Dossari was transferred from Pakistan to Kandahar, Afghanistan via airplane by US authorities. On the plane, he was shackled by chains on his thighs, waist and shoulders, with his hands tied behind him. The chains were so tight around his shoulders that he was forced to lean forward at an extreme angle during the entire flight. This caused great pain to Mr Al Dossari’s stomach, where he had had an operation some years before. When Mr Al Dossari complained about the pain, he was hit and kicked in the stomach, causing him to vomit blood.

Upon arriving in Kandahar, Mr Al Dossari and other detainees were put on a row on the ground in a tent. US Marines urinated on the detainees and put cigarettes out on them (Mr Al Dossari has scars that are consistent with those that would be caused by cigarette burns). A US soldier pushed Mr Al Dossari’s head into the ground violently and other soldiers walked on him…"

Mohammad Al Dossari has alleged, among other things, that he was forced to walk barefoot over barbed wire and that his head was pushed to the ground on broken glass. He has alleged that US soldiers subjected him to electric shocks, death threats, assault and humiliation. He has alleged that in Guantánamo Bay, he was subjected to a violent cell extraction, possibly on 27 or 28 April 2002, in which his head was repeatedly struck against the floor by a military guard until he lost consciousness. The government of Bahrain is reported to have requested an investigation into this incident. Mohammaded Al Dossari has alleged that during interrogations he has been wrapped in Israeli and US flags, shackled to the floor ("short-shackled") for some 16 hours, and been threatened that his family in Bahrain would be killed.

Fellow Bahraini detainee Abdullah Al Noaimi has alleged that he was physically assaulted by US soldiers in Kandahar air base in Afghanistan, stripped and sexually humiliated. He says that he witnessed detainees being bitten by dogs in Kandahar. In Guantánamo, he alleged that he has been threatened with rape, injected with an unknown substance during an interrogation, subjected to sexual taunting by female personnel, and hours of being shackled in a room made freezing by air conditioning.

A number of Yemeni detainees have alleged that they and others were subjected to torture and ill-treatment in Afghanistan before their transfer to Guantánamo, where they describe the regime as abusive, punitive, slow or failing to treat medical and dental problems, and prone to violent cell extractions and religious intolerance. The latter has allegedly included repeated disrespect for the Koran, including taking detainees’ copies, insulting them, wrapping them in the Israeli flag, throwing them on the ground, and stamping on them.

Ø Mohammed Mohammed Hassen has alleged that an interrogator made him run 20 laps when he refused to talk, wounding his feet as he was still shackled. After further questioning, he alleges that he was made to run again, and subsequently put in isolation for 40 days.

Ø Several allege that interrogators have used the air conditioning to make detainees freezing cold. Yasin Qasem Muhammad Ismail says that he has been kept under the air conditioner running full blast for 18 hours. He has alleged that when held in Bagram air base in Afghanistan, US soldiers beat him, kicked him, and stood on his back and knees.

Ø Abd Al Malik Abd Al Wahab alleges that he has been forced to endure many hours of cold under air conditioners, and subjected to sleep deprivation. He states that he was threatened that unless he confessed he would be taken "underground" and would never see daylight. He has said that he had his thumb broken during beatings by US soldiers in the US air base in Kandahar in Afghanistan.
Turkish national and German resident Murat Kurnaz has alleged that when he was held in the US air base in Kandahar, interrogators repeatedly forced his head into a bucket of cold water for long periods of time, as well as subjecting him to an electric shock on his feet. He has alleged that he was held for days shackled and handcuffed with his arms secured above his head. On one occasion, he claims that a military officer loaded his gun and pointed it at Murat Kurnaz’s head, screaming at him to admit to being an al-Qa’ida associate. Murat Kurnaz also claims to have witnessed other detainee beatings, in one case that he believes may have resulted in the detainee’s death. In Guantánamo, he alleges, he has been subjected to sexual humiliation and taunting by young women who entered the interrogation room where he was shackled to the floor. When of them began to caress him from behind, he jerked his head back, hitting her head. He alleges that a response team of guards in riot gear entered the room beat him and sprayed him with pepper spray, and he was taken to isolation where he was left on the floor with his hands tied behind his back for 20 hours.

The handwritten notes of a US lawyer who met with Kuwaiti detainees in Guantánamo in January 2005 make for similarly disturbing reading:

All indicated that they had been horribly treated, particularly in Afghanistan and Pakistan where they were first held for many months after being taken into custody (in Kandahar, Kohat, Bagram). Although the words they used were different, the stories they told were remarkably similar – terrible beatings, hung from wrists and beaten, removal of clothes, hooding, exposure naked to extreme cold, naked in front of female guards, sexual taunting by both male and female guards/interrogators, some sexual abuse (rectal intrusion), terrible uncomfortable positions for hours. All confirmed that all this treatment was by Americans…

Several said pictures were taken of some of this abuse...Some of the pictures still exist and are still used by the interrogators. Many knew that the Americans had killed several people during the interrogations at these places.

Several also mentioned the use of electric shocks – like ping pong paddles put under arms – some had this done; many saw it done.

Several said they just could not believe Americans could act this way.

Tied so tightly that hands and feet swelled to much above normal size. Forced to move and assume uncomfortable positions while tied this way. Beaten with chains when would go to the bathroom. Forced to stay in positions and to urinate and defecate on self.

Were not as specific about the abuses at Guantanamo. Several indicated that the physical abuses continued at GTMO, many confirmed the use of stress positions. But most said the abuse was more subtle (that also included beatings, though, but usually types of tactics ‘that would not leave marks’). All seemed more concerned by religious persecution than physical abuse. From the outset, mocked for their religion...

...and...

However, it seems that any such representations were unheeded by the USA. Indeed, when the "UK Government officially asked the US authorities in May 2004 if interrogation techniques such as hooding, sleep and food deprivation had been used in Guantánamo Bay and Iraq", the US administration was unapologetic in its response, confirming "that such techniques had been authorised for a limited period – in Guantanamo Bay between November 2002 and January 2003, and in Iraq until May 2004."(326) According to the evidence still being revealed, torture and ill-treatment has been more widespread than that message would suggest.

Concerns about abusive interrogation techniques from within the USA’s own agencies appear to have been ignored. In the wake of the Abu Ghraib scandal, and the emergence of the US administration’s memorandums on how US agents could avoid criminal liability for torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, concerns within the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) about techniques employed by US interrogators have come to light.(327)

FBI documents are among heavily redacted information reluctantly released by the administration pursuant to a request filed by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and others in October 2003 under the Freedom of Information Act, and a follow-up lawsuit filed in June 2004 demanding government compliance with this request. An FBI email dated 13 May 2004, for example, suggested that Major General Geoffrey Miller, who was commander of Guantánamo detentions from November 2002 to March 2004 before being made Deputy Commander for Detainee Operations in Iraq, had in Iraq "continued to support interrogation strategies we not only advised against, but questioned in terms of effectiveness… [T]he battles fought in [Guantánamo] while [General Miller] was there are on the record."(328)

An FBI email dated 22 May 2004 refers to an instruction to FBI personnel in Iraq "not to participate in interrogations by military personnel which might include techniques authorized by Executive Order but beyond the bounds of standard FBI practice". The email said that some of FBI personnel, although not themselves participating in abuse, had been "in the general vicinity of interrogations in which such tactics were being used". The email goes on to seek clarification of an instruction from the Office of General Counsel (OGC) requiring FBI personnel to report any abuse that he or she comes across:

"This instruction begs the question of what constitutes ‘abuse’. We assume this does not include lawful interrogation techniques authorized by Executive Order. We are aware that prior to a revision in policy last week, an Executive Order signed by President Bush authorized the following interrogation techniques among others: sleep ‘management’, use of MWDs (military working dogs), ‘stress positions’ such as half squats, ‘environmental manipulation’ such as use of loud music, sensory deprivation through the use of hoods, etc. We assume the OGC instruction does not include the reporting of these authorized interrogation techniques, and that the use of these techniques does not constitute ‘abuse’."

An FBI document from December 2004, originally classified as secret for 25 years, included the following prior observations by FBI agents:

Iraq
A detainee hooded and draped in a shower curtain, was cuffed to a waist high rail. An MP [military policeman] was apparently subjecting the detainee to sleep deprivation, as he was observed slapping the detainee lightly, as if to keep him from falling asleep;

Guantanamo Bay
A detainee’s mouth was duct taped for chanting from the Koran…military employee who applied the duct tape found it amusing;
A detainee being isolated for substantial periods of time;
Agents heard of detainees being subjected to considerable pain and very aggressive techniques during interrogations;
Agents aware of detainees being threatened…by dogs;
Agents have seen documentary evidence that a detainee was told that his family had been taken into custody and would be moved to Morocco for interrogation if he did not begin to talk.

Afghanistan
Agents are aware of detainees being subjected to interrogation techniques that would not be permitted in the United States (i.e. stress positions for extended periods of time and sleep deprivation) and to psychological techniques (i.e., loud music).

An FBI memorandum dated 14 July 2004 stated the following about the treatment of a Guantánamo detainee:

"In September or October of 2002 FBI agents observed that a canine was used in an aggressive manner to intimidate detainee #63 and, in November 2002, FBI agents observed Detainee #63 after he had been subject to intense isolation for over three months. During that time period, #63 was totally isolated (with the exception of occasional interrogations) in a cell that was always flooded with light. By late November, the detainee was evidencing behavior consistent with extreme psychological trauma."(329)

Another undated FBI email described the following which allegedly occurred in February 2004 against a detainee in Guantánamo:

"[H]e was yelled at for 25 minutes. [He] was short-shackled, the room temperature was significantly lowered, strobe lights were used, and possibly loud music. There were two male interrogators, one stood behind him and the other in front. They yelled at him and told him he was never leaving here… After the initial 25 minutes of yelling, [he] was left alone in the room in this condition for approximately 12 hours… During the 12 hours, [he] was not permitted to eat, pray or use the bathroom."

An FBI email from December 2003 referred to "torture techniques" being used by the Department of Defense (DoD) in Guantánamo, and noted the FBI’s Military Liaison and Detainee Unit’s "long standing and documented position against use of some of DoD’s interrogation practices". The email expressed concern that DoD interrogators were impersonating FBI agents, and that "if this detainee is ever released or his story made public in any way, DoD interrogators will not be held accountable because these torture techniques were done [by] the ‘FBI’ interrogators". The email noted that "these tactics have produced no intelligence of a threat neutralization nature to date and…have destroyed any chance of prosecuting this detainee".(330)

An FBI memorandum dated 10 May 2004 notes that law enforcement agencies at Guantánamo Bay "were of the opinion [that] results obtained from these interrogations were suspect at best". This memorandum recalls that the FBI had advised its agents who went to Guantánamo to "stay in line with Bureau policy and not deviate from that (as well as made them aware of some of the issues regarding DoD techniques"). The memorandum noted that the FBI and the Guantánamo military authorities had agreed to differ, and that "the Bureau has their way of doing business and DoD has their marching orders from the Sec Def [Secretary of Defense]". (331)

...and let me tell you, there's a whole lot more where that came from. And that's just Amnesty International. I haven't even checked out the other human-rights organizations yet.

In any case it ought to be fairly obvious there's a bad smell coming from somewhere. Satisfied ? Consider yourself honored, Gaw; I don't usually get irritated enough to start looking for and quoting online sources.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

It's a (purportedly) communist (definitely) dictatorship. Nobody expects too much of it.

The US, last I checked, wasn't. See the difference ?

About what I was thinking...

[Adrian II]

Talk about hypocrisy.

The situation in Iran is far worse, therefore I regularly post messages about abuse, violation of human rights, lack of fair trial and basic democratic principles in Iran. And how about China, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan? I never hear you complain about their Gitmo's. We can't cover them all, can we?

The fact of the matter is that Castro is not nearly as powerful or influential as the President of the U.S. and that he does not invade nations in an attempt to set standards for mankind and create chaos and instability in the course of it. So sorry, Cuba will have to wait.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

For the last time, THE CONDITIONS OF GITMO ARE FIVE THOUSAND TIMES BETTER THAN WHAT THE INMATES DESERVE.

There.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The fact of the matter is that Castro is not nearly as powerful or influential as the President of the U.S. and that he does not invade nations in an attempt to set standards for mankind and create chaos and instability in the course of it. So sorry, Cuba will have to wait.

Yes we must conquer and civilize the US first. LOL.

[Adrian II]

Yes we must conquer and civilize the US first. LOL.

Americans will see to that, give or take a few years. They always have.

[TheSilverKnight]

For the last time, THE CONDITIONS OF GITMO ARE FIVE THOUSAND TIMES BETTER THAN WHAT THE INMATES DESERVE.

There.

No offence Capo, but do you really think that little outburst is going to change anyone's minds? You'd do better to state your opinion clearly and not angrily Anger isn't good, it gives you high blood pressure

[Kaiser of Arabia]

No offence Capo, but do you really think that little outburst is going to change anyone's minds? You'd do better to state your opinion clearly and not angrily Anger isn't good, it gives you high blood pressure

My goal isn't to change peoples minds, but to annoy them to the point that they give up. If I wanted to change they're mind that post would be maybe 5 paragraphs long.

[TheSilverKnight]

My goal isn't to change peoples minds, but to annoy them to the point that they give up. If I wanted to change they're mind that post would be maybe 5 paragraphs long.

Hmm...well that certainly was annoying, I'll give you that. But I'm going to have to go with the conditions at Gitmo are just slightly worse than what they could be...I'm not gonna give up, but your statement did annoy me good job

[mystic brew]

No no.
I'm impressed by Kaiser's moral clarity. The abiltiy to decide what all these prisoners deserve without having met them, tried them or put them through tribunals is a great ability. I think we should utilise it more. Kaiser for Attorney General, perhaps?

Pashtun poets, for example, are a great threat to the American way of life.
http://www.cageprisoners.com/articles.php?id=8413

But yes, the other guantanamo is regularly condemned by Amnesty International among others. However, Cuba isn't the land of the free. It's the land of the dictator.

I would harbour suspicion that the outrage towards guantanamo that many American's feel is due to their own government acting in a way that many believe is contrary to international law... This government that many will have voted for.

You work to change those things you see most clearly, perhaps.

[LeftEyeNine]

Basic Achilles Heel of Communism, it has to strive to survive - that is generally by means of despotism and dictatorship.

People should try to understand that Communism is nothing but a dream..

Just Like what Putin once said :

"Accept it, Communism was a good song at least.."

Yes it sounds good but you need constant oppression to make it survive..

Old mighty USSR, Cuba, China, Northern Korea ? Why do these countries have such similar characteristics ?

Hell yeah, Communism sounded good - no more than that.. Capitalism, unfortunately, knocks out another opponent. I'm excited to see what will the next alternative be (or ever will any be ?)

[Lemur]

Let's start printing the t-shirts now: "We're better than Cuba. Yay."

[bmolsson]

Yet all we constantly here is how great Cuba is and how terrible the US is. Talk about hypocrisy.

Who says that Cuba is great ?? I missed that one out....

[Proletariat]

Who says that Cuba is great ?? I missed that one out....

JAG or Soulforged are more than willing to extol Cuba's greatness, I'm sure.

[Soulforged]

JAG or Soulforged are more than willing to extol Cuba's greatness, I'm sure.

Oh no please don't talk me about Cuba...ahhhhhh!! No really I cannot defend Castros regime, but we'll see what happens when he's out, I expect that capitalism is not implemented, there are better ways to end with society.
Besides I've never defended Catro nor Stalin, it will be blind to do that...

[solypsist]

what vociferous discussion

[ichi]

wow, so we're not quite as bad as a brutal communist dictator.

Thanks for pointing that out.

There's lots of places in the world, some supported by the US, where conditions are extremely inhumane. I'm outraged by them. I'm also outraged that my government not only condoned torture, but relied on it.

I think the US is better than that, its what sets us apart and above the animals out there.

ichi

[Slyspy]

JAG or Soulforged are more than willing to extol Cuba's greatness, I'm sure.

Wrong on one count so far. Care to try again lol?