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Originally Posted by :
The Other Gitmo: Where's the Outrage?
By Mary Anastasia O'Grady | The Wall Street Journal
October 7, 2005; Page A17 | Conditions at the prison at Guantánamo are inhumane. Inmates are deprived their right to religious worship, receive scant nutrition and suffer constant verbal and physical abuse from guards. It's a humanitarian outrage.
I refer, of course, to Castro's Guantánamo Provincial Prison in Cuba proper, the prison across the fence from the U.S. naval base compound holding the terrorists. Fidel's lock-up makes the U.S. prison look like a five-star tropical resort.
Torture, deprivation and isolation of political prisoners at the "other" Guantánamo -- or at any of Fidel's gulags across the island -- are no secret. They've been loudly denounced by prisoners' families and reported by Cuba's independent journalists. But foreign journalists have paid little attention. It seems they're too busy shredding their hankies over whether enemy combatants at the naval base have enough honey glaze on their chicken.
International apathy toward the plight of the political prisoners is just what Fidel Castro counts on. As the dissident movement has expanded in the past decade, El Maximo Lider has found it necessary to strike at it with excessive force from time to time. But when his repression becomes too public, he has to back off. [Castro's Guant[aacute]namo]
A hunger strike at the Guantánamo prison, which ended earlier this week, makes the point. Political prisoners Victor Arroyo and Felix Navarro stopped eating on Sept. 10 and 13 respectively, to protest the extreme cruelty administered by Guantánamo prison director Lt. Col. Jorge Chediak Pérez and "rehabilitation" expert Juan Armesto.
As the strike headed toward a fourth week, dozens of Cuban human rights advocates from all over the island were on their way to the prison in a show of solidarity. On Sept. 29, the EU called on the government to "improve the conditions of detention of these individuals and other political prisoners who are being held in circumstances that fall below the U.N. Minimum Standards for the Treatment of Prisoners."
On Monday, as the strikers showed no sign of relenting, Fidel blinked. The two men were removed from Guantánamo. Mr. Arroyo was taken away in an ambulance because he was so feeble, while Mr. Navarro traveled by car. Sources on the island say that Mr. Arroyo is now at the prison hospital in Holguin and Mr. Navarro is at the prison hospital in Bayamo.
In an honest world, the cases of Mr. Arroyo and Mr. Navarro would have raised an international outcry a long time ago. The men were arrested along with more than 70 others in the regime's March 2003 crackdown on journalists, opposition leaders, librarians and writers. All were taken into custody, given summary trials and handed extreme sentences.
A review of the 53-year-old Mr. Arroyo's arrest record shows the regime's pathetic paranoia. One example: In 2000 he was jailed for possessing some toys that he planned to distribute to poor children. The charge? "Hoarding public goods." His real crimes are for things like being director of the Union of Independent Cuban Journalists and Writers and managing one of the most important independent libraries in the country. In March 2003, Mr. Arroyo was working as a journalist in Pinar del Río, when he was detained. On April 7, 2003, he was sentenced to 26 years in prison for "acts against state security."
Mr. Navarro, who is 52-years-old, has an equally "dangerous" profile. An educator for some 20 years, in 1999 he founded the Pedro Luis Boitel Democracy Movement, which led to numerous arrests. His April 2003 conviction for "acts against state security" won him a 25 year sentence.
Mr. Navarro's identification with the heroic Boitel explains a lot about the prisoners and about Fidel's decision to yield to their strike. Boitel was a close prison friend of Armando Valladares, who spent 22 years in Cuban gulags. In his memoir, "Against All Hope," Mr. Valladares wrote of Boitel that he was "the most rebellious of Cuban political prisoners." In 1972, he had gone on a hunger strike to protest prison conditions. After 47 days of no food Boitel was gravely ill. But it was Castro's decision to deny him water that sealed his fate. He died on day 53.
Later, according to Mr. Valladares, the prisoners learned that Castro had given the order to "get rid of Boitel so he wouldn't make anymore [expletive] trouble." In a telephone conversation from Miami this week, Mr. Valladares reminded me that through it all "the international community kept silent."
Like Mr. Valladares and Boitel before them, Messrs. Arroyo and Navarro protested Guantánamo's filth, beatings, bad food, lack of water and use of common criminals to terrorize political prisoners. And like their predecessors, their complaints were met with violence.
In December 2003, Mr. Arroyo's opinions earned him a savage beating by three jailers, who also slammed a door on his leg to cripple him. In September 2004, when he was told his cell would be searched, he asked to be present to ensure that nothing would be planted. For that request, the food that had been brought by his family was confiscated and his few belongings trashed. He was then placed in a "punishment cell," which is a solitary confinement cell too small to lie down in, with no windows and a steel door. He was kept there for 15 days. Mr. Navarro was also thrown in the punishment cells for objecting to inhumane conditions.
The men wrote letters to the government to draw attention to ruthlessness of Armesto and jailer Chediak Perez, but to no avail. That's when they took up the mantle of Boitel.
Castro didn't respond until it looked like the strikers might embarrass him by dying. On Tuesday, Mr. Arroyo's sister reported that Cuban officials in Holguin promised him "a just treatment." But the fact that it had to go so far before the Castro would agree to basic humanitarian principles reveals much about the dictator that so many Americans admire
Yet all we constantly here is how great Cuba is and how terrible the US is. Talk about hypocrisy.The Other Gitmo: Where's the Outrage?
By Mary Anastasia O'Grady | The Wall Street Journal
October 7, 2005; Page A17 | Conditions at the prison at Guantánamo are inhumane. Inmates are deprived their right to religious worship, receive scant nutrition and suffer constant verbal and physical abuse from guards. It's a humanitarian outrage.
I refer, of course, to Castro's Guantánamo Provincial Prison in Cuba proper, the prison across the fence from the U.S. naval base compound holding the terrorists. Fidel's lock-up makes the U.S. prison look like a five-star tropical resort.
Torture, deprivation and isolation of political prisoners at the "other" Guantánamo -- or at any of Fidel's gulags across the island -- are no secret. They've been loudly denounced by prisoners' families and reported by Cuba's independent journalists. But foreign journalists have paid little attention. It seems they're too busy shredding their hankies over whether enemy combatants at the naval base have enough honey glaze on their chicken.
International apathy toward the plight of the political prisoners is just what Fidel Castro counts on. As the dissident movement has expanded in the past decade, El Maximo Lider has found it necessary to strike at it with excessive force from time to time. But when his repression becomes too public, he has to back off. [Castro's Guant[aacute]namo]
A hunger strike at the Guantánamo prison, which ended earlier this week, makes the point. Political prisoners Victor Arroyo and Felix Navarro stopped eating on Sept. 10 and 13 respectively, to protest the extreme cruelty administered by Guantánamo prison director Lt. Col. Jorge Chediak Pérez and "rehabilitation" expert Juan Armesto.
As the strike headed toward a fourth week, dozens of Cuban human rights advocates from all over the island were on their way to the prison in a show of solidarity. On Sept. 29, the EU called on the government to "improve the conditions of detention of these individuals and other political prisoners who are being held in circumstances that fall below the U.N. Minimum Standards for the Treatment of Prisoners."
On Monday, as the strikers showed no sign of relenting, Fidel blinked. The two men were removed from Guantánamo. Mr. Arroyo was taken away in an ambulance because he was so feeble, while Mr. Navarro traveled by car. Sources on the island say that Mr. Arroyo is now at the prison hospital in Holguin and Mr. Navarro is at the prison hospital in Bayamo.
In an honest world, the cases of Mr. Arroyo and Mr. Navarro would have raised an international outcry a long time ago. The men were arrested along with more than 70 others in the regime's March 2003 crackdown on journalists, opposition leaders, librarians and writers. All were taken into custody, given summary trials and handed extreme sentences.
A review of the 53-year-old Mr. Arroyo's arrest record shows the regime's pathetic paranoia. One example: In 2000 he was jailed for possessing some toys that he planned to distribute to poor children. The charge? "Hoarding public goods." His real crimes are for things like being director of the Union of Independent Cuban Journalists and Writers and managing one of the most important independent libraries in the country. In March 2003, Mr. Arroyo was working as a journalist in Pinar del Río, when he was detained. On April 7, 2003, he was sentenced to 26 years in prison for "acts against state security."
Mr. Navarro, who is 52-years-old, has an equally "dangerous" profile. An educator for some 20 years, in 1999 he founded the Pedro Luis Boitel Democracy Movement, which led to numerous arrests. His April 2003 conviction for "acts against state security" won him a 25 year sentence.
Mr. Navarro's identification with the heroic Boitel explains a lot about the prisoners and about Fidel's decision to yield to their strike. Boitel was a close prison friend of Armando Valladares, who spent 22 years in Cuban gulags. In his memoir, "Against All Hope," Mr. Valladares wrote of Boitel that he was "the most rebellious of Cuban political prisoners." In 1972, he had gone on a hunger strike to protest prison conditions. After 47 days of no food Boitel was gravely ill. But it was Castro's decision to deny him water that sealed his fate. He died on day 53.
Later, according to Mr. Valladares, the prisoners learned that Castro had given the order to "get rid of Boitel so he wouldn't make anymore [expletive] trouble." In a telephone conversation from Miami this week, Mr. Valladares reminded me that through it all "the international community kept silent."
Like Mr. Valladares and Boitel before them, Messrs. Arroyo and Navarro protested Guantánamo's filth, beatings, bad food, lack of water and use of common criminals to terrorize political prisoners. And like their predecessors, their complaints were met with violence.
In December 2003, Mr. Arroyo's opinions earned him a savage beating by three jailers, who also slammed a door on his leg to cripple him. In September 2004, when he was told his cell would be searched, he asked to be present to ensure that nothing would be planted. For that request, the food that had been brought by his family was confiscated and his few belongings trashed. He was then placed in a "punishment cell," which is a solitary confinement cell too small to lie down in, with no windows and a steel door. He was kept there for 15 days. Mr. Navarro was also thrown in the punishment cells for objecting to inhumane conditions.
The men wrote letters to the government to draw attention to ruthlessness of Armesto and jailer Chediak Perez, but to no avail. That's when they took up the mantle of Boitel.
Castro didn't respond until it looked like the strikers might embarrass him by dying. On Tuesday, Mr. Arroyo's sister reported that Cuban officials in Holguin promised him "a just treatment." But the fact that it had to go so far before the Castro would agree to basic humanitarian principles reveals much about the dictator that so many Americans admire
But Gawain, they have free healthcare! 
It's a (purportedly) communist (definitely) dictatorship. Nobody expects too much of it.
The US, last I checked, wasn't. See the difference ?
The US, last I checked, wasn't. See the difference ?
The reputation of a State does not change the morality or immorality of its actions. The difference of reputation is moot to that point. That Cuba has done worse than gitmo for decades seems to increase the hypocrisy of those who ignore them and critisize the US. The point is that people should be putting more pressure on them for their worse and continued harms, but they do not.
Since the Media tend to tilt to the left and many leftists have a boner for the ever-so-lovable Castro, you won't hear much about it. But of course, they also have free healthcare as its been pointed out earlier in this thread!!!
So the defense is that Cuba has done the equivalent?
Are you saying that the USA has social/moral/political parity with Cuba?
That USA's best defence is to compare itself to a nation itself considers a social pariah?
Wow
Are you saying that the USA has social/moral/political parity with Cuba?
That USA's best defence is to compare itself to a nation itself considers a social pariah?
Wow
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny:
Talk about hypocrisy.
The situation in Iran is far worse, therefore I regularly post messages about abuse, violation of human rights, lack of fair trial and basic democratic principles in Iran. And how about China, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan? I never hear you complain about their Gitmo's. We can't cover them all, can we?Talk about hypocrisy.
The fact of the matter is that Castro is not nearly as powerful or influential as the President of the U.S. and that he does not invade nations in an attempt to set standards for mankind and create chaos and instability in the course of it. So sorry, Cuba will have to wait.
For the last time, THE CONDITIONS OF GITMO ARE FIVE THOUSAND TIMES BETTER THAN WHAT THE INMATES DESERVE.
There.
There.
Originally Posted by :
The fact of the matter is that Castro is not nearly as powerful or influential as the President of the U.S. and that he does not invade nations in an attempt to set standards for mankind and create chaos and instability in the course of it. So sorry, Cuba will have to wait.
The fact of the matter is that Castro is not nearly as powerful or influential as the President of the U.S. and that he does not invade nations in an attempt to set standards for mankind and create chaos and instability in the course of it. So sorry, Cuba will have to wait.
Yes we must conquer and civilize the US first. LOL.
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny:
Yes we must conquer and civilize the US first. LOL.
Americans will see to that, give or take a few years. They always have.Yes we must conquer and civilize the US first. LOL.
Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia:
For the last time, THE CONDITIONS OF GITMO ARE FIVE THOUSAND TIMES BETTER THAN WHAT THE INMATES DESERVE.
There.
No offence Capo, but do you really think that little outburst is going to change anyone's minds? For the last time, THE CONDITIONS OF GITMO ARE FIVE THOUSAND TIMES BETTER THAN WHAT THE INMATES DESERVE.
There.
You'd do better to state your opinion clearly and not angrily 
Anger isn't good, it gives you high blood pressureOriginally Posted by TheSilverKnight:
No offence Capo, but do you really think that little outburst is going to change anyone's minds? You'd do better to state your opinion clearly and not angrily Anger isn't good, it gives you high blood pressure
My goal isn't to change peoples minds, but to annoy them to the point that they give up. If I wanted to change they're mind that post would be maybe 5 paragraphs long.No offence Capo, but do you really think that little outburst is going to change anyone's minds?
You'd do better to state your opinion clearly and not angrily Anger isn't good, it gives you high blood pressureOriginally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia:
My goal isn't to change peoples minds, but to annoy them to the point that they give up. If I wanted to change they're mind that post would be maybe 5 paragraphs long.
Hmm...well that certainly was annoying, I'll give you that. But I'm going to have to go with the conditions at Gitmo are just slightly worse than what they could be...I'm not gonna give up, but your statement did annoy me My goal isn't to change peoples minds, but to annoy them to the point that they give up. If I wanted to change they're mind that post would be maybe 5 paragraphs long.
good job 
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny:
Yet all we constantly here is how great Cuba is and how terrible the US is. Talk about hypocrisy.
Who says that Cuba is great ?? I missed that one out.... Yet all we constantly here is how great Cuba is and how terrible the US is. Talk about hypocrisy.
No no.
I'm impressed by Kaiser's moral clarity. The abiltiy to decide what all these prisoners deserve without having met them, tried them or put them through tribunals is a great ability. I think we should utilise it more. Kaiser for Attorney General, perhaps?
Pashtun poets, for example, are a great threat to the American way of life.
http://www.cageprisoners.com/articles.php?id=8413
But yes, the other guantanamo is regularly condemned by Amnesty International among others. However, Cuba isn't the land of the free. It's the land of the dictator.
I would harbour suspicion that the outrage towards guantanamo that many American's feel is due to their own government acting in a way that many believe is contrary to international law... This government that many will have voted for.
You work to change those things you see most clearly, perhaps.
I'm impressed by Kaiser's moral clarity. The abiltiy to decide what all these prisoners deserve without having met them, tried them or put them through tribunals is a great ability. I think we should utilise it more. Kaiser for Attorney General, perhaps?
Pashtun poets, for example, are a great threat to the American way of life.
http://www.cageprisoners.com/articles.php?id=8413
But yes, the other guantanamo is regularly condemned by Amnesty International among others. However, Cuba isn't the land of the free. It's the land of the dictator.
I would harbour suspicion that the outrage towards guantanamo that many American's feel is due to their own government acting in a way that many believe is contrary to international law... This government that many will have voted for.
You work to change those things you see most clearly, perhaps.
Originally Posted by bmolsson:
Who says that Cuba is great ?? I missed that one out....
JAG or Soulforged are more than willing to extol Cuba's greatness, I'm sure.Who says that Cuba is great ?? I missed that one out....
Basic Achilles Heel of Communism, it has to strive to survive - that is generally by means of despotism and dictatorship.
People should try to understand that Communism is nothing but a dream..
Just Like what Putin once said :
"Accept it, Communism was a good song at least.."
Yes it sounds good but you need constant oppression to make it survive..
Old mighty USSR, Cuba, China, Northern Korea ? Why do these countries have such similar characteristics ?
Hell yeah, Communism sounded good - no more than that.. Capitalism, unfortunately, knocks out another opponent. I'm excited to see what will the next alternative be (or ever will any be ?)
People should try to understand that Communism is nothing but a dream..
Just Like what Putin once said :
"Accept it, Communism was a good song at least.."
Yes it sounds good but you need constant oppression to make it survive..
Old mighty USSR, Cuba, China, Northern Korea ? Why do these countries have such similar characteristics ?
Hell yeah, Communism sounded good - no more than that.. Capitalism, unfortunately, knocks out another opponent. I'm excited to see what will the next alternative be (or ever will any be ?)
Let's start printing the t-shirts now: "We're better than Cuba. Yay."
Originally Posted by Proletariat:
JAG or Soulforged are more than willing to extol Cuba's greatness, I'm sure.
Oh no please don't talk me about Cuba...ahhhhhh!!JAG or Soulforged are more than willing to extol Cuba's greatness, I'm sure.
No really I cannot defend Castros regime, but we'll see what happens when he's out, I expect that capitalism is not implemented, there are better ways to end with society.Besides I've never defended Catro nor Stalin, it will be blind to do that...
what vociferous discussion
wow, so we're not quite as bad as a brutal communist dictator.
Thanks for pointing that out.
There's lots of places in the world, some supported by the US, where conditions are extremely inhumane. I'm outraged by them. I'm also outraged that my government not only condoned torture, but relied on it.
I think the US is better than that, its what sets us apart and above the animals out there.
ichi
Thanks for pointing that out.
There's lots of places in the world, some supported by the US, where conditions are extremely inhumane. I'm outraged by them. I'm also outraged that my government not only condoned torture, but relied on it.
I think the US is better than that, its what sets us apart and above the animals out there.
ichi
Originally Posted by :
I think the US is better than that, its what sets us apart and above the animals out there.
Well it seems many dissagree with you. They like you think for some rason the US should be held to a higher standard than the rest of the world. However they dont see the US as better than most but worse somehow.I think the US is better than that, its what sets us apart and above the animals out there.
Well, when a democratically run country likes to make claims about "defending freedom and human rights" and so on, as the USA is wont to, there's the thing that people tend to expect it to make an effort to adhere to those lofty claims and not throw them out of the window the second it suits them. And they also tend to get quite sarcastic, at the very minimum, when overmuch liberties are taken in upholding those principles in its own actions...
"Your walk walks and your talk talks, but your walk talks more than your talk walks," right ?
Besides, where is it even theoretically possible to effect a change by affecting the public opinion - the USA or Cuba ? Quite so. Yelling at Cuba would quite simply be a waste of time and breath; yelling at the US at least might have some effect.
"Your walk walks and your talk talks, but your walk talks more than your talk walks," right ?
Besides, where is it even theoretically possible to effect a change by affecting the public opinion - the USA or Cuba ? Quite so. Yelling at Cuba would quite simply be a waste of time and breath; yelling at the US at least might have some effect.
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny:
Well it seems many dissagree with you. They like you think for some rason the US should be held to a higher standard than the rest of the world. However they dont see the US as better than most but worse somehow.
You need to get the picture straight here on expectations. Well it seems many dissagree with you. They like you think for some rason the US should be held to a higher standard than the rest of the world. However they dont see the US as better than most but worse somehow.
If Cuban police beats somebody, I couldn't care less.
If Indonesian police beats somebody, I would be upset.
If US police beats somebody, I would make a nifty post in the backroom.
If Swedish Police beats somebody, I would go to Stockholm and throw rocks at the National Police head quarter.
So, I don't put my expectations on US so very high, but still above Cuba......
Originally Posted by :
'lo and behold. Another "They do it, so we can too!" argument
No we dont do it and thats the difference.'lo and behold. Another "They do it, so we can too!" argument
the situation in cuba has been going on for years, and people all over the world have been protesting it for years.....but like any cause if loses intensity over time.
when a country that claims to be a shining light for democracy and freedom starts behaving badly and using excuses like "but that brutal dictatorship does it too....why can´t us?".....well that tends to generate a bit more noise......
when a country that claims to be a shining light for democracy and freedom starts behaving badly and using excuses like "but that brutal dictatorship does it too....why can´t us?".....well that tends to generate a bit more noise......
Originally Posted by :
Splitting hairs. We do it to a lesser degree, but we still do it.
Exactly what do we do? Is anyone or any country totally inocent in this matter? Nobody and no country is perfect. But we are certainly far better than most. Splitting hairs. We do it to a lesser degree, but we still do it.
Originally Posted by :
Stealing a nice ferrari and stealing a beat-up Honda Accord from the '80s are of different magnitudes, but still stealing.
Its more like stealing a ferrari vs stealing a bowl of rice. If you think there just as bad thats your problem.Stealing a nice ferrari and stealing a beat-up Honda Accord from the '80s are of different magnitudes, but still stealing.
Originally Posted by :
Torturing people in vast quantities publicly, and torturing people in unknown quantities and concealing it from your people in the form of spin and tight-lipped officials are of different calibres, but still torturing people.
And exactly what proof do you of us doing this ? Also it depends on what you call torture. Besides that the people at Gitmo are certainly far more deserving of incarceration than those in Castros gulags.Torturing people in vast quantities publicly, and torturing people in unknown quantities and concealing it from your people in the form of spin and tight-lipped officials are of different calibres, but still torturing people.
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny:
Also it depends on what you call torture.
i can´t wait for us to start discussing what we call "oral sex" again.....Also it depends on what you call torture.
i thought that the high moral level of this administration would put a stop to such excuses.
Originally Posted by Ronin:
i can´t wait for us to start discussing what we call "oral sex" again.....
i thought that the high moral level of this administration would put a stop to such excuses.
i can´t wait for us to start discussing what we call "oral sex" again.....
i thought that the high moral level of this administration would put a stop to such excuses.
Good point.Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny:
Yet all we constantly here is how great Cuba is and how terrible the US is. Talk about hypocrisy.
I'd say your both terrible Yet all we constantly here is how great Cuba is and how terrible the US is. Talk about hypocrisy.
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