The Other Gitmo: Where's the Outrage?

[Watchman]

A valid point.

Now look, Gawain. Stop the "misunderstood-martyr-whom-everyone-picks-on" act. It is a fact of the world that open democratic societies are expected to conform to certain minimum standards of behaviour, and if they look like going the wrong way about that it is only to be expected their peers will give them a lot of flak for it. Dictatorships, totalitarian regimes etc. are in practice judged by wholly different (and by necessity rather lower) standards, and as far as those go Castro is actually from the more palatable end.

These two sets of standards aren't really compatible, beyond the general consensus that those of the latter group tend to be pretty disagreeable by those of the first.

The point here is that the USA has been slipping to the lower set of standards with worrisome regularity as of late. Well, it's not exactly a new phenomenom, but then it did get chewed on in the earlier cases too. And it's receiving its due amount of crap from the other open societies as a result.

If you don't like it, tough cookies. The world doesn't turn to your convenience. But at least can these embarassingly whiny attempts at red herring evasions.

[Kralizec]

My god, and to think that until a few moments ago I thought that Cuba was a happy place, with flowery meadows, and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles!

Surely, the whole world should turn both eyes and fix them on Cuba, and let the Bush administration do whatever they want without holding up them to certain ethical standards, like y'know, the ones they justified their invasion of Iraq with.

[ichi]

No we dont do it and thats the difference.

and I thought Cleopatra was the Queen of De Nile

You make a good point that the world needs to be more attentive to human rights abuses in places like Cuba, and you're right about the fact that everyone seems to hold the US to higher standards.

But this administration has made torture an integral part of its intelligence operations; not condoned torture, not had a few isolated incidents of rogue personnel, not slipped on a we spot or accidnetly hit their head on a door; to deny it damages credibility.

ichi

[Gawain of Orkeny]

But this administration has made torture an integral part of its intelligence operations; not condoned torture, not had a few isolated incidents of rogue personnel, not slipped on a we spot or accidnetly hit their head on a door; to deny it damages credibility.

As I asked another poster, and your proof of all this?

The point here is that the USA has been slipping to the lower set of standards with worrisome regularity as of late. Well, it's not exactly a new phenomenom, but then it did get chewed on in the earlier cases too. And it's receiving its due amount of crap from the other open societies as a result.

This is total bullox. If you think we used to treat prisoners better you have another thing coming.

[Watchman]

As I asked another poster, and your proof of all this?

I'd consider the way they're doing their damnedest to try and sink those ban-the-torture bills to be already fairly strong evidence of something smelling rotten, actually...

If you think we used to treat prisoners better you have another thing coming.

Hey, if you want to start smearing the US image with lines like this I'm all for it, but AFAIK aside from assorted CIA niceties and so on you guys at least made an effort to abide by the rules and behave.

And had the decency to be ashamed of it when excesses came out, instead of trying to make it acceptable.

[mystic brew]

so i'm confused here.

Is the defence that the US isn't torturing prisoners? or that they are, but it's legal torture, so that's ok? or that they used to toture prisoners, so it's ok now? or that the Cubans torture prisoners, so we can too?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

lmao, are you truly trying to say our torturing people can be equated to a hungry man stealing a bowl of rice?

OK once more what type of torture does the US sanction?

[Watchman]

"When everything else fails, deny everything" is it ? Bah.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

"When everything else fails, deny everything" is it ? Bah.

Why dont you just take your ball and go home since youve had nothing to say in at least three threads in reply to me other than Im acting like a kindergarden kid or other such insults. It seems you simly cant answer me with anything other than rubbish.

[Watchman]

If you'd actually present arguments I'd happily argue them. However, sudden blanket denials and guilt-displacing I see no reason to address in depth.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

If you'd actually present arguments I'd happily argue them. However, sudden blanket denials and guilt-displacing I see no reason to address in depth.

I ask simple questions that you simply cant answer. Dont take your frustration out on me.

[Tribesman]

This is total bullox. If you think we used to treat prisoners better you have another thing coming.
So not only do you have the same standards as a typical latin American dictatorship , you have always had the same standards as a dictatorship .
Nice one Gawain , and the point you were trying to make is ????
Is it ....spending too much time reading right wing-blogs while high can affect your mind .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

So not only do you have the same standards as a typical latin American dictatorship , you have always had the same standards as a dictatorship .
Nice one Gawain , and the point you were trying to make is ????
Is it ....spending too much time reading right wing-blogs while high can affect your mind .

Keep spouting your BS its really far more amusing than bmolsons one liners

[Slyspy]

It's a (purportedly) communist (definitely) dictatorship. Nobody expects too much of it.

The US, last I checked, wasn't. See the difference ?

Bingo, we have a winner and so early in the thread!

BTW with the US (in fact any Western democracy) the very possibility of such things is as bad as the fact. Lets face it there has never been any convincing legal let alone moral explantation for the necessity of Gitmo.

[Slyspy]

JAG or Soulforged are more than willing to extol Cuba's greatness, I'm sure.

Wrong on one count so far. Care to try again lol?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Wrong on one count so far. Care to try again lol?

Would you care to go through the archives and see just how many here have praised Cuba. I friggin doubt it.

[Watchman]

Red herring. Please throw it away before it begins to smell.

[Meneldil]

Well, that's how I see it :

The US keep claiming they are the 'good ones', that they want to spread democracy accross the middle-east, that they protect human rights and all that.
Yet, in reality, you see that they lie to the rest of the world to invade a foreign country, they erase cities from the face of earth with white phosphorus, put people who have not been proved guilty in jail for years and years, torture their prisonners or send them in dictatorship so they can be tortured by the local people, support some of the cruelest dictators on earth, and so on.

Now, you might try to deny it, but facts are here. A country that claims to be the White Knight of the modern world will obviously be judged on higher standards than the dictator of a poor, powerless country.

[Slyspy]

Would you care to go through the archives and see just how many here have praised Cuba. I friggin doubt it.

I've got to admit that a forum search for "Cuba is great" may not be comprehensive (especially as the Backroom is not searchable AFAIK) but nevertheless I got zero results.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Now, you might try to deny it, but facts are here

Well youve posted your opinion but you have stated no facts.

I've got to admit that a forum search for "Cuba is great" may not be comprehensive (especially as the Backroom is not searchable AFAIK) but nevertheless I got zero results.

Well that settles it then Just like WMDS since we cant find then they were never there even though Saddam used them on his own people. Maybe check all posts made by Jag . That is if you have time to go over 11000 posts.

[Meneldil]

Well youve posted your opinion but you have stated no facts.

You want me to post facts on how the US support the nice dictators of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Uzbekistan and so on ? How your country supported Irak during the Iran/Irak conflict ?
You want me to post pics of what happened in Abu Graib (sp?)
You want me to post a link to the 'US admited to use white phosphorus in Falluja' topic ?
If these are in your opinion mere opinions, then I guess you should look for 'opinion' in a dictionnary
Care to explain me where Saddam suddenly hide his WMD ?

Just like WMDS since we cant find then they were never there even though Saddam used them on his own people.

Oh, cause he used WMD of his own people ? That means, something among the lines of White Phosphorus ? :D

[Slyspy]

Nope, even a search for "Cuba" by poster "JAG" yields nothing. Guess we'll have to assume that the original statement was unfounded vitriol!

Any way. Good guys = no torture because it is bad, bad guys = loads of torture because it is fun. Unless we've been misled and we are also bad guys? Oh the trials and tribulations......]

As noted before expectations are different. I would not expect my vicar to beat people up any more than I would expect a football thug to hug the opposing fans.

[Watchman]

So would you like to try and logically explain the "don't ban torture" agenda of Cheney et co, Gaw ?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Nope, even a search for "Cuba" by poster "JAG" yields nothing. Guess we'll have to assume that the original statement was unfounded vitriol!

Yes just like saying Saddam had WMDs when we all know he did. Maybe your memory is failing but most of us know Jags position on Cuba.

So would you like to try and logically explain the "don't ban torture" agenda of Cheney et co, Gaw ?

And exactly what torture is he in favor of? You never answer what torture exactly is it that the US supports?

[Watchman]

Are you asking me to tell you what your own governement is squabbling about ?

[Slyspy]

Yes just like saying Saddam had WMDs when we all know he did. Maybe your memory is failing but most of us know Jags position on Cuba.

Thats me convinced. Oh yeah thats the killer argument. Buried under a mountain of proof of one (absent?) member's love of Castro's regime. You got me aargh......

[Gawain of Orkeny]

So none of you have any proof that the US is tourturing people? But dont let that stop you. Once more exactly what torture is the US sanctiong here?

[Watchman]

Conditions at the prison at Guantánamo are inhumane. Inmates are deprived their right to religious worship, receive scant nutrition and suffer constant verbal and physical abuse from guards. It's a humanitarian outrage.

Well, this for starters. It's from the article you graciously linked yourself at the start...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Quote:
Conditions at the prison at Guantánamo are inhumane. Inmates are deprived their right to religious worship, receive scant nutrition and suffer constant verbal and physical abuse from guards. It's a humanitarian outrage.

Well, this for starters. It's from the article you graciously linked yourself at the start...

Hmm lets see here. The prison that refers to is Castros not ours. Can you say pwnd?

[Slyspy]

Bingo, we have a winner and so early in the thread!

BTW with the US (in fact any Western democracy) the very possibility of such things is as bad as the fact. Lets face it there has never been any convincing legal let alone moral explantation for the necessity of Gitmo.

Please read again. This time read the words. Thankyou.