How to defeat Byz in early

[Mr White]

I'm playing the english, normal, in early

The year is1174 and I'm facing a byzantine army of about 2500 men. The byzantine general, a 8 star prince, is acompagnied by some spears, byzantine infantry, varangian guards, byzantine cavalry, naphta trowers, 2 ballistas and of course the legions of peasants.

My army is lead by my second best general, a 7 star royal knight, and is about 2800 men strong. I have 4 feudal spears, some feudal swords, 2 gallowglasses,2 mounted sergants, 4 fuedal knights, 4 or 5 archers, half a unit of longbowmen (bribed in wales) and a hell of a lot of woodsmen.

the battlefield will be flat as a pool table with some woods.

I know the basic tactics but they don't work as well against high valour troops. for example, last time I fought them I charged a unit of byz infantry with mounted sergants (I know not the best cavalery) in the back and pulled them away the second this was possible. I lost half my unit while they didn't even lost ten men. I charged them IN THE BACK at FULL SPEED with a type of unit that is the BANE for swords. That's why I need all the help I can get.

[Dooz]

Sorry about not being able to help but, how can you have so many men in your armies? I have my unit sizes on huge and the max it lets me put into an army is 1,920 men. Are the numbers you posted more than one army, with reinforcements?

[Mr White]

They are not in one stack but when the battle comes they can only be lead by one general.

[Mr White]

I probably misunderstood you. Yes reïnforcements are also included.

I'm just looking for a good line-up for my men and some tactics to go along.

[Mr White]

I was thinking about a classic spearwall to the far back of the map (1. to tire out the byzantines, 2. so my reïnforcements will be there quicker) maybe near a forrest to be able to ambush with a unit of woodsmen or gallowglasses.

Behind my spears 3 units of archers will try to kill as much as possible of the byz first wave (first wave has the best quality troops) and my half unit of longbows will focus on the prince and his kats.

I will probably use 4 units of cavalry (my general not included) but this is where I'm in doubt. Should I use my mounted sergants to try to disrupt there line and lure some units away (probably resulting in a slaugther of my horses or should I use all my fuedal knights and wait until my line and theirs clash and then charge them in the back. Both have their risks and there advantages.

The rest of my army will be swords to kill their spears and plug the holes.

If anybody has any remaks or suggestions please tell me.

[antisocialmunky]

The Byzantine Infantry will chew through your spear line. Your best bet is to probably kill the general so they lose all their valour and morale bonuses and then charge the BI in their back.

[Mr White]

So I fought the byzantines yesterday evening (my 2800 against his 2500) but I forgot to take screenies ( I was occupied to much with the battle itself). Sorry about that.

The battlefield was as flat as a pool table with some woods here and there. It was raining heavy but that would change soon enough.

I positioned the pride of England near the edge of the map. A line of three units of feudal spearmen with between them 2 units of FMAA, all in 4 ranks deep formation. On their flanks but a bit behind them stood on each side one unit of FMAA in a two ranks formation. I also fielded 3 archer units and my half unit of Welsh longbowmen ( LB for operation pincushion prince). My general, 15 royal knights, behind them and my cavalry (2 units of knights templar, 1 unit of feudal knights and 1 unit of mounted sergants with 1 armour upgrade) a bit in front and to the side of my infantry line.

The byzantines took to the field with 2 ballistas (which they withdraws sometime during the battle), 4 units of byz cav, maybe 4 units of byz inf, a unit of varangian guards, some archers, a couple of spears and of course the kat general.

When the byzantines were approaching, they clearly expressed their disgust for the English by their banners with 'no more BSE' (BSE=mad cow desease) and 'King Richard is f*cking his sister' written on them.
All the English could come up with to counter that was the rather lame 'No he isn't, it's his cousin'. About one of every 8 English soldiers was pissing his pants, what wasn't a bad avarage considering 'the fuzzy bunnies' and 'Wally's well-mannered wood whackers' were thought to be the toughest units in the army of the self proclaimed pink knight (messenger: "the queen was surrounded by 20 wild men", pink knight:"why does she always get to have fun").

The battle realy started when the byz prince marched his infantry to my line and engaged is while holding back the byz cav, archers and the spearmen. My line was an instant chaos even when I flanked their units with the MAA ont the sides. I was bearly holding on an I was obligated to use 2 units cavalry right away. My archers fired in the mass of brawling soldiers and my longbowmen were picking of kats one by one. That's the moment they deside to bring in the byz horsies.

Suddenly more then half my army routes ( or what's left of it) and I'm just holding on with one depleted unit of FMAA, my archers and my fast fading cavalry (the mounted sergants I kept in reserve up till is comming to the rescue but was having fun on the way with the trebizond archers while their spearmen marched to where the horsepoking should be done.

The pink knight was screaming "reïnforcements, reïnforcements, my precious collection of table cloth for reïnforcements" while engaging and checking out his advisarry at the same time. 2 units of highland clansmen and some urban millitia take to the field. This fresh blood was everything England needed at the time and the fighting could go on. There was still a constant flow of reïnforcements needed to keep the byzantines at bay.

The byz prince was now surrounded and his elite worriers were to far away and to busy trying to save their own hide to help him. The moment he fell there was a mass rout and my warriors could catch their breath for a moment.

At this time I was fielding what was left of my cavalry (9 knights templar, 4 mounted sergants) and a new unit of mounted sergants, a lot of woodsmen ( 8 or more units, with Wally of course), the rest of my clansmen, the depleted urban militia, 2 units of archers and 2 units of fresh feudal spears (I had withdrawn my general when his unit was down to just a few men out when the battle was still going the byz way).
And what do the byz bring on the field? 6 units of horse archers. I was allready panicking (my pink knight wasn't able anymore to do that for me) since I had nothing to catch them with. In my desperation I charged them with 3 units of woodsmen. The turned tail and run, I was even able to corner 2 units and slaughter them.

The third byz wave consisted out of some different units of light cav (Alan mercenaries and I believe some more horse archers and byz cav) wich where mostly caught in and around some forrest nearby my inf line.
Next where a lot of naphta trowers, trebizond archers and some woodsmen backed up with the first of the peasant legions. They stopped and formed up somewhere in the middle of the map and refused to come any closer to be slain by my men (which were now as vindictive as a horde of sisters who realise you have been reading there diary).
In a sidenote I would like to underline the heroïsm of my 9 knights templar who not only drove of a unit of horseachers but also fought in the meantime 3 units of naphta trowers, a unit of trebizond archers and another unit of horsearchers all at the same time without taking any casualties (until one grenade hit its target and they ran like the devil was right behind them).

I marched my inf to theirs while flanking them with some horses (maybe 20 all toghether) and sent them running of the field. the pressurepot tactic made sure the rest of the peasant would run to (my soldiers where exhausted and a last fight would mean to many casualties on my part)

So the battle ended with both sides losing its crack troops. I lost over 900 men and the byz over 700 (the high ranking general was also killed) with 300 prisoners ( I didn't kill them because they where mostly second rate troops).

The outcome of this battle? I lost most of my best units in that area (Lithuania) and lost more men than the byzantines BUT I still have my excelent general (without any bad vices) and I bought some time to rebuild my army and finally the surrounding byz provinces are allmost undefended and begging me to raid them.

P.S. the pink knight was a character in a programm in Flandres ( namely 'buiten de zone') so all hail to them for coming up with such a magnificent figure.

[Knight Templar]

Very nice battle

[Kommodus]

Very nice, hilarious battle report. A couple of quick points:

A line of three units of feudal spearmen with between them 2 units of FMAA, all in 4 ranks deep formation.

As others have pointed out, the swordsmen are at their best when 2 ranks deep; 4 is the correct depth for the spearmen. In this case, though, the Byzantine infantry were going to beat your infantry line anyway.

Ichi probably had the best idea, which was to harass and split the attackers apart with light and fast troops, although perhaps you didn't have the kind of army required for this tactic: horse archers, which the English don't get except as mercenaries, are really the best way to make it work.

In the end, of course, it was killing the enemy general that won you the battle. Congradulations!

P.S. If you ever get caught with a bunch of infantry facing mainly horse archers, a good way to weather it is to put your infantry in woods and use the spread-out formation. In this case your charge succeeded because the enemy had such low morale; it won't always work.

[Mr White]

As others have pointed out, the swordsmen are at their best when 2 ranks deep; 4 is the correct depth for the spearmen. In this case, though, the Byzantine infantry were going to beat your infantry line anyway.

I am aware of that but I was considering the fact that their byz cavalry ( or in the worst case the kats) would charge my swords and I wanted some protecticion. All my other non-spear infantry was deployed two ranks deep.

P.S. If you ever get caught with a bunch of infantry facing mainly horse archers, a good way to weather it is to put your infantry in woods and use the spread-out formation. In this case your charge succeeded because the enemy had such low morale; it won't always work.

In my defence, the horse archers were between my infantry and the woods. On the other hand, the AI doesn't really know how to use it's HA's and a head on charge with an expendable unit can keep the horse archers busy for quite some time ( and render it almost useless). I wasn't planning to wait until they could get some shots of so I charged them with 3 units and I would send some more to surround them or to drive them of so I could reposition myself.
But You are right that in a normal situation taking on HA's with inf is not the way to go

[Eternal Champion]

As others have pointed out, the swordsmen are at their best when 2 ranks deep

Unless your asking them to take a cavalry charge then you need at least three deep for a reasonable chance to soak it up.

[Lars Jorgensun]

Unless your asking them to take a cavalry charge then you need at least three deep for a reasonable chance to soak it up.

I disagree, when they are two deep they are able to wrap themselves around 60-100 man units that are deployed in deep formation.

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah, just try and use a 2 man thick line to take a charge.

[Ciaran]

I disagree, when they are two deep they are able to wrap themselves around 60-100 man units that are deployed in deep formation.

Eternal Champion was refering to deal with cavalry, and he´s righ there, when about to receive a cav charge, a deeper formation is needed, lest the unit gets split in half, and when that happens you can almost certainly write off that particular unit.
In any other situation, of course, the depth of two is optimal for swords and polearms.