How to defeat Byz in early

[Mr White]

I'm playing the english, normal, in early

The year is1174 and I'm facing a byzantine army of about 2500 men. The byzantine general, a 8 star prince, is acompagnied by some spears, byzantine infantry, varangian guards, byzantine cavalry, naphta trowers, 2 ballistas and of course the legions of peasants.

My army is lead by my second best general, a 7 star royal knight, and is about 2800 men strong. I have 4 feudal spears, some feudal swords, 2 gallowglasses,2 mounted sergants, 4 fuedal knights, 4 or 5 archers, half a unit of longbowmen (bribed in wales) and a hell of a lot of woodsmen.

the battlefield will be flat as a pool table with some woods.

I know the basic tactics but they don't work as well against high valour troops. for example, last time I fought them I charged a unit of byz infantry with mounted sergants (I know not the best cavalery) in the back and pulled them away the second this was possible. I lost half my unit while they didn't even lost ten men. I charged them IN THE BACK at FULL SPEED with a type of unit that is the BANE for swords. That's why I need all the help I can get.

[Dooz]

Sorry about not being able to help but, how can you have so many men in your armies? I have my unit sizes on huge and the max it lets me put into an army is 1,920 men. Are the numbers you posted more than one army, with reinforcements?

[Mr White]

They are not in one stack but when the battle comes they can only be lead by one general.

[Mr White]

I probably misunderstood you. Yes reïnforcements are also included.

I'm just looking for a good line-up for my men and some tactics to go along.

[Mr White]

I was thinking about a classic spearwall to the far back of the map (1. to tire out the byzantines, 2. so my reïnforcements will be there quicker) maybe near a forrest to be able to ambush with a unit of woodsmen or gallowglasses.

Behind my spears 3 units of archers will try to kill as much as possible of the byz first wave (first wave has the best quality troops) and my half unit of longbows will focus on the prince and his kats.

I will probably use 4 units of cavalry (my general not included) but this is where I'm in doubt. Should I use my mounted sergants to try to disrupt there line and lure some units away (probably resulting in a slaugther of my horses or should I use all my fuedal knights and wait until my line and theirs clash and then charge them in the back. Both have their risks and there advantages.

The rest of my army will be swords to kill their spears and plug the holes.

If anybody has any remaks or suggestions please tell me.

[antisocialmunky]

The Byzantine Infantry will chew through your spear line. Your best bet is to probably kill the general so they lose all their valour and morale bonuses and then charge the BI in their back.

[Kommodus]

It sounds to me like what you really need are some crossbows/arbalesters to take out some of those high-valour, armoured troops.

As antisocialmunky said, the ideal solution is to kill the general; however, assuming that doesn't happen quickly (which it probably won't) you can expect to suffer significant losses. I would advise against frittering away your light cavalry just to harass; save them, along with your knights, for a more decisive moment (as you said, charge in the flanks or rear).

Something I've tried occasionally is to stagger swordsmen/spearmen along the line, i.e. a unit of spears in the center, flanked on both sides by swords, with more spears on the ends of the line, refusing both flanks. This protects your flanks from cavalry charges and lets your swords engage the enemy line up front, so that your spears aren't slaughtered by enemy swordsmen and militia. You just have to be aware of your enemy potentially aiming their cavalry at your swordsmen; it helps to have some spears in reserve just behind your swords to guard against this possibility.

If you ambush with anything, it should be cavalry, which can quickly charge out of trees and bear down on the enemy from behind. I would use the gallowglasses as a reserve unit; they can deliver a potent charge to an already-engaged enemy and possibly cause a route. Woodsmen can be used in a similar fashion but won't do as well.

Make sure to use your armour-piercing longbowmen to target a high-value enemy unit, such as the general or some Varangian Guards. The archers would be better used on lightly armoured enemies.

Good luck; let us know how it turns out.

[Ciaran]

Fighting the Byzanites with early units is tough, at best. The problem is, their Byzantine infantry units go through anything like a shark though a surfer, even cavalry, normally the bane of sword units. The Varangians are even worse. A good idea, if you can´t kill the general fast, try to kill as many of the Byzantine infantry and Varangians with your archers, every single one counts here. From High on, things go way smoother, but that´s still 31 years away for you.

[ichi]

Sometimes in Early you can simply be facing a superior army, and its usually a Byz group led by Obi-Wan Bobbaganoush.

Think of the Byz as a tank, you don't want to stand in front of a tank and get run over. Going toe-to-toe in this case should be the final option.

Use lighter, faster units to draw ByzInf and VG away and isolate them, swarm the isolates with 2-3 units and be sure to get them flanked. Use cav archers, archers and LBs (pick up some hybrid Turkish mercs maybe?) to shoot as many as you can.

Don't sacrifice your high star gen unless you can replace him easily. The only thing worse than having Uber-Gen die now is having him with a -6 morale cowardly runner who wets his pants vice.

Take the long view. Wear them down, hit the province repeatedly, or get them to attack over a period of several years to simply outproduce them and wear that army down.

Of course, the easy and best way is to get rid of the high command star gen you face, so maybe drop every assassin you have on him and then use cav archers to deplete his unit, then hit him with your best troops.

ichi

[Knight Templar]

Use lighter, faster units to draw ByzInf and VG away and isolate them, swarm the isolates with 2-3 units and be sure to get them flanked. Use cav archers, archers and LBs (pick up some hybrid Turkish mercs maybe?) to shoot as many as you can.

Nice piece of advice

And about your battle: use the fact that woodsmen (you said you have plenty of then) have irrestible charge so use them to flank if possible.
As Kommodus said, focus your longbowmen fire on armoured targets like kats and especially killing machines VG.
Also, as byz units are high-valoured, yours are too (7-star general) so it shouldn't be big problem.
Never use light cav like mounted sergeants to fight with 100men unit of Byz inf face to face. Mounted sergeants are best for attacking from rear and flank (because of their irrestible charge) and chasing routers.

Hope it will help, let us know how did the battle finish

[Lars Jorgensun]

Here's my suggestion, it's risky and it will mean taking alot of losses but if done correctly you can kill the kat general, and get all of his troops in a pincer. Assemble all of your infantry in a long formation. Spears 4 deep, man at arms 2 deep, archers 2 deep. keep your MAA in the front backed by spears and archers. Keep the mounted seargents on your flanks, this will help keep you from being routed. And here's the key part. Maneveur ALL your feudal knights behind the byzs.Your gonna have to do this after both armies have engaged in melee. Wait until thier kat general joins the fray,then spread you knights two deep behind the byz army. Do the same with the seargents on your flanks. Timing is key here, do it too soon and the byz's will have time to regroup, too late and your men will route under pressure. Order your cavalry to charge on all sides and watch the mayhem. Soon you'll be mopping up any survivors. Hope it works for ya!!!!

[Weebeast]

LOL I'm not a great commander so I can't tip you but I wanna see how it turns out. I like the sound of scattering enemy's formation though but that also means you gotta split yours too lol.

Post some screenshots

[m52nickerson]

Well if you are attacking, and you can attack two of the provence you want and one right next to it try this. Split your forces as equal as you can. Then attack both provinces. The Bzy may split there army to defend both. Now fight what ever provence does not have there 8 star general. With out there leader you should be able to beat them. As long as you can put some one with some command in charge. Now in the other provence, just start the battle and withdraw.

[antisocialmunky]

One time, as the English, I launched a crusade to try and get the crusader goals before high. The Byzantines didn't like letting me through and declared war... and ran back to the keep... My army was big enough to make the AI run away.

So to make a long story short:

The Byzantines kept attacking the provence my army was in but my crusade would keep moving forward. It seems like a reoccuring theme in alot of my games that Constantinople is left undefended(probably due to it being a bottle neck.

So guess what?

I ended up accidentally capturing it. I decided to be merciful... to the Turks and stripped 10K worth of buildings out of Constantinople. And that was the end of them. The Turks eventually took over until the horde killed them all.

You could always kill Constantinople, that's pretty much an autowin against AI controlled Byzantines.

[m52nickerson]

Yes, grabbing the big C is a great way to slow down the Bzy. The best part is they will keep trying to get it back (if you hold it) and defending is much easier.

[Mr White]

Thanks, you have all been very helpfull.
I will fight the battle tonight and report on it tomorrow.
My plan is still pretty much what I was going to do but I might try the swords between my spears trick. I will target the kats with my longbowmen and I will save my cavalery for when the fighting is at its peek.

[Patron]

I'd form a nice line of infantry, spear in front, sword behind and a 2 or 3 units of archers in skirmisher mode in front and the rest at the back.

Cavalry on flanks, general behind the line.

Send out your most expendable mounted seargants and micromanaged them so they kill off any units the AI abandons or any archers he sends forward. The byzantine cavalry will be on skirmisher mode and not want to engage your Mseargants and will run away in relation to their general and the position of your MS's general. So you may be able to scare them away fr omthe byzantine army and chase them into the edge of the map and charge into them like that.

Ignore the naptha throwers and ballistas, march your line forward, stop some distance fro mthem and then charge your heavy infantry into the enemy's infanty, through your spearmen. Take your spears and charge them around the flanks and trap the cavalry and charge into their rear with your feudal knights, who should be some distance away from the line and charging round the rear at the same time your infantry engages, ready to do a proper micromanaged charge with hold formation. Charge your units of feudal knights one at a time so you can counter any odd unit which decides to charge into your occupied knights.

[antisocialmunky]

BTW - peasants with 4+ stars are scary. They don't die or run easily and help to get your men an outnumbered penalty.

[Mr White]

So I fought the byzantines yesterday evening (my 2800 against his 2500) but I forgot to take screenies ( I was occupied to much with the battle itself). Sorry about that.

The battlefield was as flat as a pool table with some woods here and there. It was raining heavy but that would change soon enough.

I positioned the pride of England near the edge of the map. A line of three units of feudal spearmen with between them 2 units of FMAA, all in 4 ranks deep formation. On their flanks but a bit behind them stood on each side one unit of FMAA in a two ranks formation. I also fielded 3 archer units and my half unit of Welsh longbowmen ( LB for operation pincushion prince). My general, 15 royal knights, behind them and my cavalry (2 units of knights templar, 1 unit of feudal knights and 1 unit of mounted sergants with 1 armour upgrade) a bit in front and to the side of my infantry line.

The byzantines took to the field with 2 ballistas (which they withdraws sometime during the battle), 4 units of byz cav, maybe 4 units of byz inf, a unit of varangian guards, some archers, a couple of spears and of course the kat general.

When the byzantines were approaching, they clearly expressed their disgust for the English by their banners with 'no more BSE' (BSE=mad cow desease) and 'King Richard is f*cking his sister' written on them.
All the English could come up with to counter that was the rather lame 'No he isn't, it's his cousin'. About one of every 8 English soldiers was pissing his pants, what wasn't a bad avarage considering 'the fuzzy bunnies' and 'Wally's well-mannered wood whackers' were thought to be the toughest units in the army of the self proclaimed pink knight (messenger: "the queen was surrounded by 20 wild men", pink knight:"why does she always get to have fun").

The battle realy started when the byz prince marched his infantry to my line and engaged is while holding back the byz cav, archers and the spearmen. My line was an instant chaos even when I flanked their units with the MAA ont the sides. I was bearly holding on an I was obligated to use 2 units cavalry right away. My archers fired in the mass of brawling soldiers and my longbowmen were picking of kats one by one. That's the moment they deside to bring in the byz horsies.

Suddenly more then half my army routes ( or what's left of it) and I'm just holding on with one depleted unit of FMAA, my archers and my fast fading cavalry (the mounted sergants I kept in reserve up till is comming to the rescue but was having fun on the way with the trebizond archers while their spearmen marched to where the horsepoking should be done.

The pink knight was screaming "reïnforcements, reïnforcements, my precious collection of table cloth for reïnforcements" while engaging and checking out his advisarry at the same time. 2 units of highland clansmen and some urban millitia take to the field. This fresh blood was everything England needed at the time and the fighting could go on. There was still a constant flow of reïnforcements needed to keep the byzantines at bay.

The byz prince was now surrounded and his elite worriers were to far away and to busy trying to save their own hide to help him. The moment he fell there was a mass rout and my warriors could catch their breath for a moment.

At this time I was fielding what was left of my cavalry (9 knights templar, 4 mounted sergants) and a new unit of mounted sergants, a lot of woodsmen ( 8 or more units, with Wally of course), the rest of my clansmen, the depleted urban militia, 2 units of archers and 2 units of fresh feudal spears (I had withdrawn my general when his unit was down to just a few men out when the battle was still going the byz way).
And what do the byz bring on the field? 6 units of horse archers. I was allready panicking (my pink knight wasn't able anymore to do that for me) since I had nothing to catch them with. In my desperation I charged them with 3 units of woodsmen. The turned tail and run, I was even able to corner 2 units and slaughter them.

The third byz wave consisted out of some different units of light cav (Alan mercenaries and I believe some more horse archers and byz cav) wich where mostly caught in and around some forrest nearby my inf line.
Next where a lot of naphta trowers, trebizond archers and some woodsmen backed up with the first of the peasant legions. They stopped and formed up somewhere in the middle of the map and refused to come any closer to be slain by my men (which were now as vindictive as a horde of sisters who realise you have been reading there diary).
In a sidenote I would like to underline the heroïsm of my 9 knights templar who not only drove of a unit of horseachers but also fought in the meantime 3 units of naphta trowers, a unit of trebizond archers and another unit of horsearchers all at the same time without taking any casualties (until one grenade hit its target and they ran like the devil was right behind them).

I marched my inf to theirs while flanking them with some horses (maybe 20 all toghether) and sent them running of the field. the pressurepot tactic made sure the rest of the peasant would run to (my soldiers where exhausted and a last fight would mean to many casualties on my part)

So the battle ended with both sides losing its crack troops. I lost over 900 men and the byz over 700 (the high ranking general was also killed) with 300 prisoners ( I didn't kill them because they where mostly second rate troops).

The outcome of this battle? I lost most of my best units in that area (Lithuania) and lost more men than the byzantines BUT I still have my excelent general (without any bad vices) and I bought some time to rebuild my army and finally the surrounding byz provinces are allmost undefended and begging me to raid them.

P.S. the pink knight was a character in a programm in Flandres ( namely 'buiten de zone') so all hail to them for coming up with such a magnificent figure.

[Knight Templar]

Very nice battle

[Kommodus]

Very nice, hilarious battle report. A couple of quick points:

A line of three units of feudal spearmen with between them 2 units of FMAA, all in 4 ranks deep formation.

As others have pointed out, the swordsmen are at their best when 2 ranks deep; 4 is the correct depth for the spearmen. In this case, though, the Byzantine infantry were going to beat your infantry line anyway.

Ichi probably had the best idea, which was to harass and split the attackers apart with light and fast troops, although perhaps you didn't have the kind of army required for this tactic: horse archers, which the English don't get except as mercenaries, are really the best way to make it work.

In the end, of course, it was killing the enemy general that won you the battle. Congradulations!

P.S. If you ever get caught with a bunch of infantry facing mainly horse archers, a good way to weather it is to put your infantry in woods and use the spread-out formation. In this case your charge succeeded because the enemy had such low morale; it won't always work.

[Mr White]

As others have pointed out, the swordsmen are at their best when 2 ranks deep; 4 is the correct depth for the spearmen. In this case, though, the Byzantine infantry were going to beat your infantry line anyway.

I am aware of that but I was considering the fact that their byz cavalry ( or in the worst case the kats) would charge my swords and I wanted some protecticion. All my other non-spear infantry was deployed two ranks deep.

P.S. If you ever get caught with a bunch of infantry facing mainly horse archers, a good way to weather it is to put your infantry in woods and use the spread-out formation. In this case your charge succeeded because the enemy had such low morale; it won't always work.

In my defence, the horse archers were between my infantry and the woods. On the other hand, the AI doesn't really know how to use it's HA's and a head on charge with an expendable unit can keep the horse archers busy for quite some time ( and render it almost useless). I wasn't planning to wait until they could get some shots of so I charged them with 3 units and I would send some more to surround them or to drive them of so I could reposition myself.
But You are right that in a normal situation taking on HA's with inf is not the way to go

[Eternal Champion]

As others have pointed out, the swordsmen are at their best when 2 ranks deep

Unless your asking them to take a cavalry charge then you need at least three deep for a reasonable chance to soak it up.

[Lars Jorgensun]

Unless your asking them to take a cavalry charge then you need at least three deep for a reasonable chance to soak it up.

I disagree, when they are two deep they are able to wrap themselves around 60-100 man units that are deployed in deep formation.

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah, just try and use a 2 man thick line to take a charge.

[Roark]

Yeah, it's the "amazing disappearing unit" trick...

[Ciaran]

I disagree, when they are two deep they are able to wrap themselves around 60-100 man units that are deployed in deep formation.

Eternal Champion was refering to deal with cavalry, and he´s righ there, when about to receive a cav charge, a deeper formation is needed, lest the unit gets split in half, and when that happens you can almost certainly write off that particular unit.
In any other situation, of course, the depth of two is optimal for swords and polearms.

[antisocialmunky]

What thickness should Gothic FootKnights use?

[m52nickerson]

What thickness should Gothic FootKnights use?

Two rows, every thing works very well in two rows unless they are spears.

[ichi]

After several thousands battles online I've come to use Men-at-Arms 3 ranks deep, set on Hold Form. The 3 ranks makes them 20 wide (on normal size units) and presents a wide front to deal with, while the 3rd rank (and Hold Form) allows them to take a charge quite nicely.

I rarely use any spear-carrying units, swords are so much better. So my main line consists of 5-6 MAA placed very tight. The Hold Form reduces fatigue and when kept together tthere is almost no opportunity for the enemy units to get a flank bonus.

The 3 ranks also compromise well the length of my main line. You want your main line long enough to make flanking the ends harder, but not so long that if the enemy overloads one flank your guys on the other flank have too far to travel. This is really important in 4v4 online games, probably less so in SP.

I use my footknights a little differently. If the enemy is cav heavy, the footknights stay 4 deep (Engage-at-Will), if cav light/inf heavy, then I go 2 ranks (Hold Form).

ichi