The warrior-priestess woman ―​ A documentary on the NGC

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Thanks Jurchen Fury, an experts touch really livened up this thread.

Some questions have been in my mind about the alleged proto Turks, though; without any significant written records in the language how can it be concluded that the Xiong Nu or other peoples mentioned were Turkic? Did the Chinese record foreign languages of those nomad barbarians accurately? What phisical-anthropological relations have been attested to between the alleged proto-Turkics and the true Turks (from 6th C. AD on) if at all?

As a side not, I'm not in a position to claim anything but, I remember reading the Qaghan/Khakan being the Chinese Huang Di, hence a common loanword, not a cognate.

Thanks again and eager to read more.
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[Hurin_Rules]

Very interesting discussion. Please continue.

[jurchen fury]

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Some questions have been in my mind about the alleged proto Turks, though; without any significant written records in the language how can it be concluded that the Xiong Nu or other peoples mentioned were Turkic? Did the Chinese record foreign languages of those nomad barbarians accurately? What phisical-anthropological relations have been attested to between the alleged proto-Turkics and the true Turks (from 6th C. AD on) if at all?.

The Wei Shu (Book of Wei, as in the Northern Wei dynasty of the Turkic-speaking Tuoba Xianbei in north China c. 4th - 6th centuries CE) Ch. 130 on the Gaoche says that their language was similar to the Xiongnu, but with only slight differences. It also says that the origins of the Gaoche can be traced back to the Chidi ("Red" Di, as Di was a general term referring to nomadic peoples north of China during the Warring States Period, the Dingling might've even been the same as the Chidi, which also sounds like Tiele) and the Dingling peoples of the 3rd century BC. According to one of the origin myths of the Gaoche recorded in ibid, the Gaoche were descended from a Xiongnu mother and a male wolf (obviously, this is only a myth but these myths were common among steppe peoples and the role of the wolf played here resembles that of the wolf in one of the origin myths of the Turkut/Tujue and what is noteworthy is the connection with the Xiongnu). According to the Jiu Tangshu, Ch. 206 on the Huihe/Huigu of Mongolia, aka the Uygurs (the official Chinese transcription of the Uygurs today is "Weiwuer", sounding like the "Weiwuer" of the Yuanshi), the Huihe were part of the Gaoche tribe, who in turn belonged to the Tiele tribe during the Northern Wei period (c. 4th - 6th centuries C.E.) The same JTS 206 also says that the Huihu were descendants of the Xiongnu. According to the Sui Shu 84, the Weihu (another transcription of Huihe/Huihu/Huigu) were part of the Tiele confederation. Ibid (Sui Shu 84) also says this about the Tiele (they had territory stretching from northern Mongolia to the Caspian, which was ruled by the Tujue/Turkut):

"The customs of the Tiele and Tujue are much alike. However a man of the Tiele lives in his wife’s home after marriage and will not return to his own home with his wife until the birth of a child. In addition, the Tiele bury the dead in the ground." (from Lin Ying's article "Some Chinese Sources on the Khazars and Khwarazm" from here.

From all these sources, it is clear that the Chidi and the Dingling, being the ancestors of the Gaoche, who were a tribe of the Tiele and in which the Huihu/Huigu/Huihe (Uygurs) were a tribe of the Gaoche. Besides the connection of the Tiele with the Tujue/Turkut, almost all scholars agree unanimously that the modern-day Uygur language is Turkic. Today's Uygurs now live in modern-day Xinjiang province in the PRC, and are descendants of those same Uygurs who emigrated out of Mongolia in 840 CE when the Kyrgyz invaded Mongolia from the Yenisei. Apparently, they mixed with the local Tocharian and Iranian peoples, accounting for the Caucasoid physical appearance of some of the Uygurs, though they seemed to have kept their mother tongue, ie Turkic. What is also clear is that the Xiongnu were almost always linked as the ancestors of the Tiele and the Tujue, both of whom were largely Turkic-speaking peoples, which might suggest that the Xiongnu spoke a Turkic language.

Interestingly, I've found this parallel passage from a secondary source, from Bell-Fialkoff, The Role of Migration in the History of the Eurasian Steppe : Sedentary Civilization vs. "Barbarian" and Nomad, p. 216:

"If we turn to the Chinese sources, we find that they consistently identify the Turks as descendants of the Hsiung-nu: "The Ka-ch'e (Turks) were formerly `Red Ti', and their speech was like that of the Hsiung-nu, but now is a little different" (Samolin 1957, 149, n.41); "the Turks who lived to the right of the Western Lake are a separate branch of the Hsiung-nu" (Samolin 1957, 149, n.43). Hsiung-nu origin was also ascribed to the Uighurs (Samolin 1957, 150, n.45).

Thus, all the tribes derived from the Hsiung-nu are Turkic. There are other affinities between the Hsiung-nu and the Turks, such as slashing one's face in mourning. This was characteristic of other groups as well: the Kutrighurs, who cut their cheeks with daggers (Maenchen-Helfen 1973, 274, n.123); the Turks, who cut off their hair and slashed their ears and cheeks (274, n.124); the Huns..........."

Though he doesn't directly cite his sources for the statements from the "Chinese sources", they're most probably from the accounts in the Weishu (Book of Wei), Beishi (History of the North), Beizhoushu (Book of Northern Zhou), Suishu (Book of Sui) regarding the Gaoche, Huihu, and Tujue.

As for their "phisical-anthropological relations", besides the sources cited above, there is also archaeological evidence as well. A life-like part (head) of a statue of Kul Tigin, brother of Bilge Khagan (4th ruler of the newly revived Turkut empire that had successfully overthrown Tang rule of Mongolia in the early 680's CE and reestablished the Dong Tujue [Eastern Turkut] empire) and supreme commander of all the Kok Turuk armies:





Kul Tigin doesn't look very Caucasoid to me.

Furthermore, the Chinese sources don't seem to have said anything particular about the physical appearance of the Turkut. OTOH, there are plenty of references in Chinese sources on peoples that appeared peculiar and looked physically different in terms of racial characteristics from the Chinese. On peoples speculated to have spoken Indo-Iranian or Tocharian languages, there is plenty of evidence. Yan Shigu's commentary in the Hanshu 96B indicates that the Wusun had green eyes and red hair and that they were the most peculiar of the Rong peoples and the commentary to the Shi Ji 123 says that the Yuezhi were pink and white in color. The Beishi 97 says that all the inhabitants of the Tarim except the Khotanese (interesting, this may indicate that proto-Tibetan groups like the Qiang may have altered the appearance of the Khotanese as time changed) had deep-set eyes and high noses.

On the origin of the Turkut, the Beishi account indicating the "Western Lake" was most likely Lake Qinghai of Qinghai province, so the origins of the Turkut may have been mixed because there were numbers of remnant Xianbei as well as Xiongnu and Qiang and even Sogdians (though they came to China mostly as merchants and would appear to have been far less numerous than the three former groups) in the Gansu-Qinghai areas. The Xiao Yuezhi were already absorbed by the Qiang at this time so we can rule them out. The strong claim to the Xiongnu may have indicated perhaps a closer affinity to them. They weren't the native inhabitants of the Altai nor was that their homeland; they only later emigrated there, according to the Beishi account, and fled to the Rouran, then the dominant power in Mongolia in the 5th - 6th century CE and became iron miners in the southern Altai serving under the Rouran. However, when the Turkut overthrew the Rouran and expanded their empire, there can be no doubt that among the peoples they incorporated into their empire when they expanded to the western steppes that some of them had features like Indo-Iranians or Tocharians.

Also, the Tujue/Turkut weren't "true" Turks. Certainly, there were Turkic peoples that preceded the Turkut, such as the above-mentioned Chidi, Dingling - Gaoche - Tiele peoples, as well as perhaps the Xiongnu. There were also other Turkic peoples contemporary with the Turkut, as you probably know, and one of the Turkut's closest Turkic neighbors were the above-mentioned Tiele, who were one of their great enemies. In fact, it was the Huihu (Uygurs), then a Tiele tribe, who overthrew the Turkut in 744 - 745 CE. The Oghuz Turks, ancestors of the Seljuqs, and who appeared later in history in the steppes above the Caspian-Aral sea regions may have been descended from the Tiele more so than the Turkut, who disappeared in history. There is mention of a people called the Shatuo Tujue (whose ancestors were probably the Turkut) whom the Tang employed as mercenaries near the end of the dynasty in the late 9th - early 10th century CE; in fact, some of the dynasties in north China during the Wudai period during the first half of the 10th century were established by rulers who had some Shatuo Tujue blood in them. The Ongguts of the 12th - 13th century of the Inner Mongolia region guarding that area for the Jin dynasty against the Mongols may have been the descendants of the Shatuo Tujue.

.As a side not, I'm not in a position to claim anything but, I remember reading the Qaghan/Khakan being the Chinese Huang Di, hence a common loanword, not a cognate.
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Do you remember your source for this?

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Do you remember your source for this?

Most likely an encyclopedia article. Chances are 50% that the article includes true reference.


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