When is a civilian not a civilian - ask your wife!

[Jubilation T Cornpone]

Although I tend to hang around the edge of the forum, passing time catching up on what the ordinary (almost) man /woman thinks about the world today from their respective countries, I thought I would share with you a conversation I had with my wife back in September during the British armys spectacular jailbreak in Basra. We were watching the footage of the incident on television and had just reached the point where one of the Warriors was petrol bombed and the turret gunner/commander was bailing out with his uniform ablaze, dodging bricks. The conversation went thus:

Karen: Oh my God, why don't they fire back?
Me:What?
Karen: The soldiers, why don't they fire, aren't they armed? Doesn't the tank have guns?
Me: Its not a tank, its an APC. You're worse than GMTV.
Karen: Don't get smart, its got a turret and tracks, doesn't it have weapons?
Me: Yes, its got a 30mm which would ruin the crowds day if they let fly.
Karen: So why don't they fire?
Me: Its a crowd of civilians! You can't fire on civilians!
Karen:But they are using petrol bombs and bricks, they can't have it both ways.
Me: Some of them are, not all of them. Look, that crowd is at least two or three hundred strong. You can't just open up on them for the sake of a couple of dozen idiots.
Karen: But thy are not just protesting, they are trying to kill the soldiers.
Me Doesn't make a difference.
Karen: But thats stupid! What if it was a crowd of uniformed soldiers and only the front two or three were firing? Wouldn't you fire at them all?
Me: Yes, of course but they would all be legitimate targets because they are all part of the same group of soldiers!
Karen: You are telling me that no one else in the crowd has noticed that their group is using petrol bombs and bricks? Do they think they're being used in a nice way or something? Does the burning tank...
Me: Its not a TANK!!
Karen: Alright! The burning...er...
Me: APC.
Karen:I heard! Do the crowd think the burning APC is something that naturally occurs, some sort of spontaneous military combustion and that the flames wont kill anyone?
Me: No, I'm sure they all realise whats happening but you can't just fire on civilians!
Karen:But they are trying to kill the soldiers!
Me: Yes but you can't fire on them!
Karen: What? How stupid is that.Do they have some sort of dispensation from the authorities or something?!?
Me: Killing civilians doesn't look good....
Karen:And burning tan...APC's and soldiers do?
Me: No, but if you fire on the crowd with a 30mm Rarden you will hit more than just the ones throwing the missiles.
Karen: But you said if it was a group of soldiers in uniform you would fire on them all regardless of how few of them had fired on you.
Me: Yes but you assume they are all dangerous. They are all of the same unit, they are all soldiers so they are legitimate targets.
Karen: Because they are all classed as soldiers and all could theoretically fire at you?
Me: Thats it!
Karen: So if you have a group of civilians, some of which are using lethal force and the rest are happy to stay with it and go along with this course of action shouldn't you assume they are all capable of lethal force. I mean, if the civilians don't want to be associated with the actions of the ones at the front they should leave. They shouldn't assume they are above the law.
Me: er...well...er...
Karen: I wouldn't stay. I'd assume because my group is using force intended to kill the soldiers that the soldiers will fire back. You don't have to be Einstein to work that out.
Me: Er....
Karen: In fact, aren't they then classesd as Guerillas..er..insurgents?
Me: Its not allowed, its just not allowed, thats the way it is!
Karen: So when our soldiers fire back in defence they will get in trouble but when the civilians try and kill our soldiers its perfectly okay is it?
Me: Well...er...
Karen: This is a really stupid war. We'd have been better leaving the armed forces at home and sending in civilians!

I gave up at that point. The problem is, I can almost see where she is coming from but I just can't explain in words that she will accept!

Thought I'd share it with you.

Gerard.

[Adrian II]

Thought I'd share it with you.

Thanks, Gerard! Quite hilarious, and quite true. In your place I suppose I would have answered 'We do not fire into crowds because we are not terrorists. If we gave upon that principle, we might as well nuke the entire country.'

It wouldn't work though, would it? Women and war, don't get me started.

[Red Harvest]

Quite true.

When they are attacking and attempting to kill or maim, they are no longer civilians in my book. Mow 'em down and make the world a better place. Afterall, when you have concentrated the troublemakers in one spot, makes sense to wipe them out.

[QwertyMIDX]

It's always a bad idea to make martyrs.

Anyway, I doubt many people here have been to a protest that turned violent, but most people involded haven't figured out what happened until they go home, talk to other people who were there, and watch the news report (or read something on IndyMedia more likely).

[Adrian II]

Quite true.

When they are attacking and attempting to kill or maim, they are no longer civilians in my book. Mow 'em down and make the world a better place. Afterall, when you have concentrated the troublemakers in one spot, makes sense to wipe them out.

Come, you spirits
That tend on mortal thoughts, unsex me here
And fill me from the crown to the toe topfull
Of direst cruelty; make thick my blood,
Stop up th'access and passage to remorse
That no compunctious visitings of nature
Shake my fell purpose.

[Duke Malcolm]

It is an AFV, not an APC...

[Jubilation T Cornpone]

It is an AFV, not an APC...

I see where you are coming from KM. I actually class it as an IFV but my wife understands the concept of an APC better than IFV or AFV! Its the same concept as GMTV reporting all armoured vehicles as tanks! Point taken though.

Gerard.

[Somebody Else]

Come, you spirits
That tend on mortal thoughts, unsex me here
And fill me from the crown to the toe topfull
Of direst cruelty; make thick my blood,
Stop up th'access and passage to remorse
That no compunctious visitings of nature
Shake my fell purpose.

Macbeth! Aaaaaaaaaaargh!

Trouble is, with a crowd, random irritants can merge in and start causing trouble, even if the majority of the crowd is peaceful. A whole bunch of people in uniform however serve a common purpose, and unless they lack any form of discipline whatsoever, act as one.

Plus, it's easier to identify someone in uniform as a combatant, whereas you take the gun/molotov cocktail/brick/kazoo away from a non-uniformed corpse, it looks just like an innocent bystander - mowed down by the evil empire.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I like your wife.

[miho]

Originaly said by mrs. Byram
This is a really stupid war. We'd have been better leaving the armed forces at home and sending in civilians!

She kinda has a point.

[littlelostboy]

She kinda has a point.

agreed. But the dialouge was damn funny tho.

[miho]

Then we wouldn't need military and the world would be a happier place.

Well that's not gonna happen soon so don't get your hopes up.

But the dialouge was damn funny tho.

Especially the tank-APC part and the end.