Once a child molestor...

[Devastatin Dave]

So what, crime happens. And it is not as if Glitter had killed anyone. According to the article he could get five years in Vietnam.

But what about the emotional damage done to the child? A life time of bad memories. So no, he didn't kill anyone, but the victim will always have this painful memory. Then again, you are from the Netherlands where your morale compass does not exactly point in the right direction, if there is such a thing as a moral compass in the Netherlands...

[Papewaio]

Dave... don't go insulting nations now...

[Adrian II]

Funny how many posters think up punishments of a sexual nature for such offenders. It reveals a Medieval attitude to punishment, as if the root of the offence was somehow lodged in the sexual organs and not in the brains or the heart which are traditionally regarded as the respective seats of self-control and compassion by most primitive peoples.

Alternatively, it could reveal the poster's own abject fascination with this particular kind of offence.

But of course it couldn't, could it?

[Redleg]

Also, is it just this lemur, or isn't there a pretty big difference between someone who sexualizes a teenager and somone who lusts for pre-teens? I mean, there's no linguistic or legal distinction, but it seems there ought to be. A person who wants to have sex with a gorgeous sixteen-year-old is misguided, but not necessarily bent and unfixable. On the other hand, a person who wants to have sex with a three-year-old is probably broken beyond repair.

Shouldn't we distinguish? Or is that opening a whole 'nother can of worms?

There should be and for the most part there is.

[Adrian II]

But what about the emotional damage done to the child?

He or she will get over it.

Of course if we force the child through ten years of counselling in which he or she is constantly told that the damage done is irreparable, then it becomes irreparable.

Sorry Dave, I think your view reflects the typical bleeding-heart liberal approach that calls all of life's adversities 'traumatic' and turns them into an excuse for lifelong wailing and unhealthy dependence on outside help.

[Devastatin Dave]

Sorry Dave, I think your view reflects the typical bleeding-heart liberal approach that calls all of life's adversities 'traumatic' and turns them into an excuse for lifelong wailing and unhealthy dependence on outside help.

So you're saying that if a man ####ed you in the arse when or made you provide oral sex to him when you were a child it would not effect you in the least? Interesting...

[Devastatin Dave]

Oh and Adrian, i believe that your response is more typical of a liberal; no concern for the victim, only sympothy for the criminal.

[Redleg]

He or she will get over it.

Of course if we force the child through ten years of counselling in which he or she is constantly told that the damage done is irreparable, then it becomes irreparable.

Sorry Dave, I think your view reflects the typical bleeding-heart liberal approach that calls all of life's adversities 'traumatic' and turns them into an excuse for lifelong wailing and unhealthy dependence on outside help.

Have you ever been around a child that has been molested?

Well I have - and they definetly don't just get over it. Care to try again.

Tell you whatAdrian when you have a child that is molested - and I pray you never do - then come back and talk about it. I watched my child last year collaspe in a seizure created from nothing but fear and anxity (SP) from remember the events of over 4 years ago. Oh and his councellors never told him that the damage done is irreparable - all they focused on was for him to put the past behind - it works to a degree - but when a child is violated by a molestor - they never forget - nor do they just get over it.

[Adrian II]

(..) they never forget - nor do they just get over it.

They may never forget, but they will get over it. Not just like that, which is not what I suggested anyway. Some will not get over it, but that may not always be the fault of the perpetrator -- it may also be due to prevailing attitudes toward sexuality in the surrounding society.

I have seen no arguments here that convince me that rape or child molestation is equal to (or worse than) murder and should hence be punishable by death. In general, the victims are victimised even more by tribal notions of virginity and primitive illusions, first dispelled by Freud, of infant sexual innocence. Notions and illusions that lead the victim to believe, falsely, that the damage done is irreparable. We should not be hysterical about sexual abuse lest we want to out children to grow up hysterical.

There is a long way to go, but it can be done. A bit of historical perspective is useful here. Girls were once taught that rape was a fate worse than death. Thank heaven they aren't any longer.

[Soulforged]

I think that many here take a wrong aproach possition to this kind of matters. The punishment subject should be aproached from the point of view of the convicted, not the victim, the system wants this things to never happen again, it doesn't cares about retribution anymore. This people should not receive any punishment at all. Punishment will only make situation worst, and doesn't solves anything. But of course in this big influenceable society that we live today punishments make good "examples" so it's a good way to deviate other potential rapist from taking actions, not excelent but it's good. In tha case I don't think that the punishment shoul be more than 8 years in the worst case.

In past times we discriminated by race, by sex (well still we do) or belief system. Now we're no better, not only we do those things, but we also have sistematized the discrimination based on actions. All people suppose that there exist some kind of "free will" but that's not prooved, so the actions are only presumed responsable. Saying that it's not social fault is denying that basic truth. It could be a social fault or not, in any case the system shouldn't pay attention to this points and be impartial, but always remembering that the person is still an human being it doesn't matter what it does, so no punishment at all should be always on the book.

[Papewaio]

1) Punish an offender so the cost benefit is negative. Easiest equated in white collar crime. Steal a thousand dollars... make it cost more to the criminal... and factor in the chance of him being caught. Steal a thousand, lose $1100 times the inverse of being caught... have a 50% chance of being caught... lose $2200.

2) Deterrent... may not work, in fact it may lead to a worse crime... so make a huge difference between an assault and death... so that covering up a crime by murdering the victim is such a step cost that they perp will think twice about using it as an avenue of escaping justice.

3) Parole... only for a first offence of a crime. Repeat offenders no parole for that offence.

4) Personal responsibility. Obvious, you do something there are consequences for it. Teach prisoners both the positive and negative versions of it.

5) Really truly crack down on drugs in prison. If a prisoner is found to be using drugs on random test ... solitary and investigate any external visitors also treat it as a health problem at the same period. Any guards found dealing should be given a twenty year plus sentence.

[Redleg]

They may never forget, but they will get over it. Not just like that, which is not what I suggested anyway. Some will not get over it, but that may not always be the fault of the perpetrator -- it may also be due to prevailing attitudes toward sexuality in the surrounding society.

Like I stated - its not something they forget - nor do they just get over it. If they don't get over it - it is partly the fault of the society, partly the fault of the victims close relatives, and partly the fault of the perpetrator. It is something they will always have to live with - just like any other action or event that happens to an individual.

I have seen no arguments here that convince me that rape or child molestation is equal to (or worse than) murder and should hence be punishable by death.

Lock them up for a period of time is my answer - unless of course during the course of that rape or molestation the perpetrator happens to kill the child - then it warrants the death penelty in my opinion.

In general, the victims are victimised even more by tribal notions of virginity and primitive illusions, first dispelled by Freud, of infant sexual innocence.

In general you are incorrect - my son who was molested by a family member - is not victimized in any such way nor would I allow it - I did the right thing and insured he recieved counselling not from quacks - but from individuals who after careful checking on my part - treated the child in the manner required to insure that the child recovers from the trauma and does not blame themselves for being the victim. It costs more - but its better then what most children get - because I refuse to allow my child to be taught that he was a victim and should be ashamed that this happened.

Notions and illusions that lead the victim to believe, falsely, that the damage done is irreparable. We should not be hysterical about sexual abuse lest we want to out children to grow up hysterical.

Again you make a generalization - this is not always so. The damage done is often extensive to the child - and it takes time and patenience for them to get past it. It also takes a family that does not treat the child with kid gloves in regards to the issue.

There is a long way to go, but it can be done. A bit of historical perspective is useful here. Girls were once taught that rape was a fate worse than death. Thank heaven they aren't any longer.

A bit of historical perspective is indeed needed - but a bit of understanding of what happens to a child who is molested is also something that some need to understand - its not a simple crime - nor is it one that the child gets over in a short period of time. The circumstances of the event can also trigger other problems with the child if the family does not embrace the child. Never ever treat the child as damaged - because they are not - they have only experienced a crime that is one of the most damaging to the individuals self-esteem.

There is no text-book answer.

[Redleg]

I think that many here take a wrong aproach possition to this kind of matters. The punishment subject should be aproached from the point of view of the convicted, not the victim, the system wants this things to never happen again, it doesn't cares about retribution anymore. This people should not receive any punishment at all. Punishment will only make situation worst, and doesn't solves anything. But of course in this big influenceable society that we live today punishments make good "examples" so it's a good way to deviate other potential rapist from taking actions, not excelent but it's good. In tha case I don't think that the punishment shoul be more than 8 years in the worst case.

People should be held accountable for their actions - if you break the law - especially one concerning children - you should be held accountable for that crime. Punishment is how society gains its retribution from the criminal.

In past times we discriminated by race, by sex (well still we do) or belief system. Now we're no better, not only we do those things, but we also have sistematized the discrimination based on actions. All people suppose that there exist some kind of "free will" but that's not prooved, so the actions are only presumed responsable. Saying that it's not social fault is denying that basic truth. It could be a social fault or not, in any case the system shouldn't pay attention to this points and be impartial, but always remembering that the person is still an human being it doesn't matter what it does, so no punishment at all should be always on the book.

And you would be incorrect - individuals should be held accountable for their actions. You can argue about what type of accountablity should occure - be it imprisonment, fines, community service or whatever else you desire for insuring the individual is held accountable for their actions - but to say no punishment, which is the accountablity, is not an acceptable solution.

[bmolsson]

I have one experience in a child molesting case. A good friend of mine married a woman with a 14 year old daughter. The daughter did have some issues, but he tried to care for her. After 2 years marriage it didn't work any more, the woman had a different view, and they had a little boy together. Never the less, the step daughter brought up charges against my friend and accused him of molesting her when she was 14. The whole machinery started. There where several Daves in the local community and my friend lost a small construction business, was dragged through the press and finally got convicted for incest and molesting the girl. He all the time claimed to be innocent.
After three years in prison, the girl stepped forward and admitted that it was all a lie she used to get government help to move out and get social wellfare.
The case was reviewed and all witness admitted that they had been biased and assumed him guilty. He was released as innocent. He lossed his business. He had not been allowed to see his son. His name was dragged in the local press. His life was ruined.

Regardless to the above story, child molestion is horrible, but I learned one thing. People with views like Dave will sooner or later ruin a life, just because their biased and unbalanced view on the world. There is always two sides of a story. We should all put our emotions away from any legal procedings and use common sense rather than traumatic emotions with only purpose to make our selves to feel better........

[bmolsson]

And you would be incorrect - individuals should be held accountable for their actions. You can argue about what type of accountablity should occure - be it imprisonment, fines, community service or whatever else you desire for insuring the individual is held accountable for their actions - but to say no punishment, which is the accountablity, is not an acceptable solution.

Would you consider treatement in a mental institution a punishment or a treat ?

[Soulforged]

3) Parole... only for a first offence of a crime. Repeat offenders no parole for that offence.

Parole is a very obscure institution that treats the person not the action, not good for a proper Rule of the Law.

5) Really truly crack down on drugs in prison. If a prisoner is found to be using drugs on random test ... solitary and investigate any external visitors also treat it as a health problem at the same period. Any guards found dealing should be given a twenty year plus sentence.

So...Not only you sustract his freedom and condemn him to a life of stress and pure danger, you also have to prohibit them to escape that reality?

People should be held accountable for their actions - if you break the law - especially one concerning children - you should be held accountable for that crime. Punishment is how society gains its retribution from the criminal.

Retribution has no social gain, it's supposed to be expiration of the self considered in himself only. I'm not saying that they're not to be accountable, however it's a different thing to say that always in the real world adults are really responsable, that all persons reaching a certain age are really adults. Of course the law presumes it for impartiality and efectiveness, but they should always keep in mind human dignity and abolishment before punishment.

And you would be incorrect - individuals should be held accountable for their actions. You can argue about what type of accountablity should occure - be it imprisonment, fines, community service or whatever else you desire for insuring the individual is held accountable for their actions - but to say no punishment, which is the accountablity, is not an acceptable solution.

I clearly said that 8 year will be acceptable as maximum, or did you miss it? However as I said many times I'm looking forward to a system without punishment.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So, Bmolsson, what you're saying is that women are liars?

...and here we have Gelcube, suggesting that you "hold this grenade for me for a couple of seconds while I go to the can."

So Gel' when did you stop beating your wife?

[bmolsson]

So, Bmolsson, what you're saying is that women are liars?

What makes you think that ?

[Redleg]

Would you consider treatement in a mental institution a punishment or a treat ?

Since the prepetatur of the molestion of my son was the 16 year old step-son, I keeped it out of the courts. In the deal I worked out with the Child Protective Service - I sent my step-son to a in-patenient facilality that specialized in helping teenager with possible severe mental illness, that acted out in a sexual nature.

While the step-son never would admit to me that he did the act - nor would he ackownledge that the mental instution help him deal with his problems. One of my neices - who is someone the step-son talks to about everything - let me know that the instution did help him out - and he admitted to her that to his shame he did something he shouldn't of done to his brother. So while the young man refuses to ackownledge to me - he has also apoligized to his brother for his act - and they now have a relationship where my son is not scared witless in the presence of his brother. But that has taken several years - and having the older boy out of the house completely.

It is never an easy thing - but for the most part - first time offenders in my opinion should be treated in a mental instution to determine if its a condtion of irrational thought processing - or if its something else.

On the second conviction - prison and a tough sentence as punishment is the course I recommend.

However if the child is killed by the molestor - then life in prison without the possibility of parole is the minimum, however its one of the crimes that justifies the death penelty in my opinon. But life in prison is probably just as apporiate.

[Redleg]

Parole is a very obscure institution that treats the person not the action, not good for a proper Rule of the Law.
So...Not only you sustract his freedom and condemn him to a life of stress and pure danger, you also have to prohibit them to escape that reality?
Retribution has no social gain, it's supposed to be expiration of the self considered in himself only. I'm not saying that they're not to be accountable, however it's a different thing to say that always in the real world adults are really responsable, that all persons reaching a certain age are really adults. Of course the law presumes it for impartiality and efectiveness, but they should always keep in mind human dignity and abolishment before punishment.
I clearly said that 8 year will be acceptable as maximum, or did you miss it? However as I said many times I'm looking forward to a system without punishment.

To put it simply - a legal system without punishment is a legal system that does not hold the convicted individual accountable for their actions.

[hellenes]

In my opinion there are two dimensions of child molestation:
The commercial.
And the personal.
While we all feel angry and aggreviated about Western children being abused we never think about the HUGE commercial industry of child prostitution and people that invest huge amounts of money to travel to indochina and "enjoy" the local services.
Ive even heard the "argument" that: its better to have the paedophiles travel away than to prey on local kids...

Hellenes

[bmolsson]

I keeped it out of the courts.

I think that your decision was wise and you most probably saved your family, the step son as well as your own son. A tragic situation, but with a solution everyone can live with.

[Redleg]

I think that your decision was wise and you most probably saved your family, the step son as well as your own son. A tragic situation, but with a solution everyone can live with.

You do what you can -

[Adrian II]

You do what you can -

I think we are exactly on the same wavelength, the difference in approach being that I wrote about the generalities of the issue and you wrote about the specifics of an incident in your personal life. Sounds like you managed to avert all the usual emotional traps, prejudices and overreactions, Redleg. I have no right to evaluate your private life, but I think you have done very, very well in this situation, acting on the same principles I have tried to act on in the past when necessary. Fortunately I have never been a perpetrator or a victim of this, but it does get under your skin if you are confronted with the consequences.

@BMolsson, well said, I am very sorry to hear what happened to your friend.

@Dave, I think the best way for you to start is to come to The Netherlands and discover that you can have a great time here because there are none of the myriad moral threats and legal perversities you seem to imagine.

[Ja'chyra]

I think that many here take a wrong aproach possition to this kind of matters. The punishment subject should be aproached from the point of view of the convicted, not the victim, the system wants this things to never happen again, it doesn't cares about retribution anymore. This people should not receive any punishment at all. Punishment will only make situation worst, and doesn't solves anything. But of course in this big influenceable society that we live today punishments make good "examples" so it's a good way to deviate other potential rapist from taking actions, not excelent but it's good. In tha case I don't think that the punishment shoul be more than 8 years in the worst case.

In past times we discriminated by race, by sex (well still we do) or belief system. Now we're no better, not only we do those things, but we also have sistematized the discrimination based on actions. All people suppose that there exist some kind of "free will" but that's not prooved, so the actions are only presumed responsable. Saying that it's not social fault is denying that basic truth. It could be a social fault or not, in any case the system shouldn't pay attention to this points and be impartial, but always remembering that the person is still an human being it doesn't matter what it does, so no punishment at all should be always on the book.

What??? Seriously what is wrong with you?

Maybe we should give them all a badge and a nice house next to the school, than they can pick theoir next victim from the comfort of thir own home.

Quote:
5) Really truly crack down on drugs in prison. If a prisoner is found to be using drugs on random test ... solitary and investigate any external visitors also treat it as a health problem at the same period. Any guards found dealing should be given a twenty year plus sentence.

So...Not only you sustract his freedom and condemn him to a life of stress and pure danger, you also have to prohibit them to escape that reality

He's in prison, that very fact means that he has done sonething serious enough for him to lose his freedoms. How does denying him drugs condemn him to pure danger????

In fact don't bother answering cos you'll only wind me up even more, we'll just have to disagree, totally.

[Devastatin Dave]

I have one experience in a child molesting case. A good friend of mine married a woman with a 14 year old daughter. The daughter did have some issues, but he tried to care for her. After 2 years marriage it didn't work any more, the woman had a different view, and they had a little boy together. Never the less, the step daughter brought up charges against my friend and accused him of molesting her when she was 14. The whole machinery started. There where several Daves in the local community and my friend lost a small construction business, was dragged through the press and finally got convicted for incest and molesting the girl. He all the time claimed to be innocent.
After three years in prison, the girl stepped forward and admitted that it was all a lie she used to get government help to move out and get social wellfare.
The case was reviewed and all witness admitted that they had been biased and assumed him guilty. He was released as innocent. He lossed his business. He had not been allowed to see his son. His name was dragged in the local press. His life was ruined.

Regardless to the above story, child molestion is horrible, but I learned one thing. People with views like Dave will sooner or later ruin a life, just because their biased and unbalanced view on the world. There is always two sides of a story. We should all put our emotions away from any legal procedings and use common sense rather than traumatic emotions with only purpose to make our selves to feel better........

[DemonArchangel]

How about you make sure the molester in question is GUILTY before punishment? If you haul off and screw over the alleged perpetrator every time a child molestation case comes up, especially without a trial, then you get what happens in bmolsson's case.

IMO child molestation is just outright horrible. Though I just think it's the result of an irrational mind. First time offenders should be treated, just like anyone else with a mental illness. Repeat offenders should be condemned to psychiatric hospitals, because they are obviously not fit for society.

[Devastatin Dave]

How about you make sure the molester in question is GUILTY before punishment? If you haul off and screw over the alleged perpetrator every time a child molestation case comes up, especially without a trial, then you get what happens in bmolsson's case.

IMO child molestation is just outright horrible. Though I just think it's the result of an irrational mind. First time offenders should be treated, just like anyone else with a mental illness. Repeat offenders should be condemned to psychiatric hospitals, because they are obviously not fit for society.

Where the hell did you and bmolsson get off by saying I wouldn't give the accused a trial? When did I say that... Oh wait, i didn't, bmolsson and you are just making shit up. Get your facts straight bright guy before opening your fortune cookie hole.

[Fragony]

He or she will get over it.

Wow AdrianII, they will have to don't they. I am sure you could get along fine with her,

[Adrian II]

Wow AdrianII, they will have to don't they. I am sure you could get along fine with her,

I don't know her, but if she is against lynching, vigilantism, racial profiling, deportation of minorities, fake statistics and everything else you advocate, what can I say? I already like her.