God hates homosexuals....and veterans

[Soulforged]

I don't remember saying that the bible was written by god, of course it was written by people (influenced by god), you are disputing a point i haven't made.

So God is more than a ghost. He gives rules but they're not clear so the writers screw all up, except for some parts that the Church finds to be fine?

as you yourself have said these events all happened in the old testament, im not 100% sure whether these events were caused by god or were merely natural disasters attributed to him, it all happened a very long time ago.

If you've faith you should know the answer by now.

Id call saying that the most important thing, more important than any other rule is to love your neighbour clarifying things, wouldn't you?

No I wouldn't. God is absolute and infalible, if I believed in such things I'll take a banner like all this people and try to save my soul of eternal damnation. Thanks God I don't believe!

[AntiochusIII]

I don't remember saying that the bible was written by god, of course it was written by people (influenced by god), you are disputing a point i haven't made.

Therefore the Bible cannot be taken literally, eh? How, then, shall we understand our poor Creator? Also, considering how the New Testament supercedes the Old Testament in some major points, shouldn't we be worried that an omnipresent being should've been eternally...stable?

as you yourself have said these events all happened in the old testament, im not 100% sure whether these events were caused by god or were merely natural disasters attributed to him, it all happened a very long time ago.

Nobody's sure, but real scientists have discovered the Bible's scientific value along the lines of the Vedas' and the (less direct comparison) Iliad's value. Troy was found; now it's time for Sodom and Gomorrah. Nonetheless, if "God" do such thing then the omnipresent being is a hypocrisy; and nothing's supposed to be contradictory about an absolute divine identity.

Id call saying that the most important thing, more important than any other rule is to love your neighbour clarifying things, wouldn't you?

How nice of you...now, shall we go and teach Fred Phelps that?

This rule actually makes a lot of social/economic sense in many ancient societies; otakus wouldn't survive the ancient world, people still needed to work together to live.



---------------------------------

Little Lost Boy's interpretation of the Bible is off, by the way. He seems to be relying on the epic poetry Paradise Lost on many of the events that he claim happened/will happen. The various versions of Bible and accompanying religious texts continuously contradicts each other from the first chapter to the end. It gives me a headache to decide which one is the authentic (none?) version.

[bmolsson]

Just a reflection. Gay is a sin and gay people should burn in hell. Abortion is equal to murdering babies.
So what about gay babies ? Are they ok to abort......

[Byzantine Mercenary]

So God is more than a ghost. He gives rules but they're not clear so the writers screw all up, except for some parts that the Church finds to be fine?

no!, gods rule is very clear, love your neighbour

If you've faith you should know the answer by now.

is this a joke? i have a personal opnion on this but of course but am open to other possibilities

No I wouldn't. God is absolute and infalible, if I believed in such things I'll take a banner like all this people and try to save my soul of eternal damnation. Thanks God I don't believe!

I don't think that you understand the christian message, there is nothing anyone can do to deserve absolution, it is a gift freely given by god

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Therefore the Bible cannot be taken literally, eh? How, then, shall we understand our poor Creator?

by what Jesus taught

Also, considering how the New Testament supercedes the Old Testament in some major points, shouldn't we be worried that an omnipresent being should've been eternally...stable?

The old testament had parts that were wrong jesus came to reveal new teachings

Nobody's sure, but real scientists have discovered the Bible's scientific value along the lines of the Vedas' and the (less direct comparison) Iliad's value. Troy was found; now it's time for Sodom and Gomorrah. Nonetheless, if "God" do such thing then the omnipresent being is a hypocrisy; and nothing's supposed to be contradictory about an absolute divine identity.

It is hard to judge the scientific value of a book that is so old, however sites that may have been sodom and gamorah have been found and they were indeed destroyed by a disaster

How nice of you...now, shall we go and teach Fred Phelps that?

you could try but i doubt he would listen

This rule actually makes a lot of social/economic sense in many ancient societies; otakus wouldn't survive the ancient world, people still needed to work together to live.

Indeed, that is part of the reason that i believe in it

[Soulforged]

no!, gods rule is very clear, love your neighbour

No! He's not clear. Kill the sinners, kill the egiptians and send to hell everybody that don't believes in me. Now, Jesus confuses things.

is this a joke? i have a personal opnion on this but of course but am open to other possibilities

No it's not a joke. If the Bible sais that God did it, then you've to believe that he did because you have faith, faith is not open to second opinions.

I don't think that you understand the christian message, there is nothing anyone can do to deserve absolution, it is a gift freely given by god

I understand it very well. Went to a private school dependant of a missionary group of nuns, they filled me with christian propaganda everyday of the week. So God gives it freely you say? Ha! This is even funnier. That will mean that even if you do follow his path (whatever it is, with all the contradictions) you could end up without a gift then? As I said God in all religions is no more than a tyrant. And this happens wheter you accept your questionable premise (freely) or mine (conditional).

[Soulforged]

no!, gods rule is very clear, love your neighbour

No! He's not clear. Kill the sinners, kill the egiptians and send to hell everybody that don't believes in me. Now, Jesus confuses things.

is this a joke? i have a personal opnion on this but of course but am open to other possibilities

No it's not a joke. If the Bible sais that God did it, then you've to believe that he did because you have faith, faith is not open to second opinions.

I don't think that you understand the christian message, there is nothing anyone can do to deserve absolution, it is a gift freely given by god

I understand it very well. Went to a private school dependant of a missionary group of nuns, they filled me with christian propaganda everyday of the week. So God gives it freely you say? Ha! This is even funnier. That will mean that even if you do follow his path (whatever it is, with all the contradictions) you could end up without a gift then? As I said God in all religions is no more than a tyrant. And this happens wheter you accept your questionable premise (freely) or mine (conditional).

The old testament had parts that were wrong jesus came to reveal new teachings

You still don't get it, right? Why did I quote the New Testament paragraphs huh?

It is hard to judge the scientific value of a book that is so old, however sites that may have been sodom and gamorah have been found and they were indeed destroyed by a disaster

Caused by God?

[GoreBag]

Just a reflection. Gay is a sin and gay people should burn in hell.

I heard once that this was a throwback to the rules of the Judeans, who frowned upon homosexuality because it was thought that they, as a people, should breed, in order to become numerous enough to defend themselves.

[Soulforged]

I heard once that this was a throwback to the rules of the Judeans, who frowned upon homosexuality because it was thought that they, as a people, should breed, in order to become numerous enough to defend themselves.

Could be...The bible bans it as "unnatural".

[AntiochusIII]

by what Jesus taught

But there is this little problem that the various versions of the Bible (and I mean the ones within 300 years after Jesus' death, not something like King James') are different. Which one is Jesus' words?

The old testament had parts that were wrong jesus came to reveal new teachings

If they were wrong, why write them down as God's will in the first place? Did God...change his mind? And, according to the Old Testament, God intervened several times acting with Old Testament ideals in mind; some of which contradicted with the New Testament's message.

It is hard to judge the scientific value of a book that is so old, however sites that may have been sodom and gamorah have been found and they were indeed destroyed by a disaster

Yes, I've seen some theories. Nothing as strong as the Trojan one yet, though.

The hand of God in it...on the other hand, might cause some major contradictions.

you could try but i doubt he would listen

Will he be in Hell or Heaven? Of my limited understanding, Christianity requires faith in God more than actions. (Not for Catholics, though, but Phelps is technically a Protestant.) His actions are vile, but he most likely is faithful, isn't he?

Could be...The bible bans it as "unnatural".

The way of the Commandments are not to give practical reasons, I believe, because it leaves open the debate. So something as concrete as "unnatural" is necessary to force the rules--if you say "we need population so make some babies" others might argue differently; if you say "God says it's unnatural" nobody in most ancient societies will dare to break the rule.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

No! He's not clear. Kill the sinners, kill the egiptians and send to hell everybody that don't believes in me. Now, Jesus confuses things.

when did jesus say kill the egiptions?

No it's not a joke. If the Bible sais that God did it, then you've to believe that he did because you have faith, faith is not open to second opinions.

Youe think i don't believe god did it.?

there is a difference between faith and understanding i do not and i believe cannot understand all of gods actions. i was attempting to transfer these events which like all events i believe were caused by or were the will of god into two seperate categorys those used by god directly for a reason, ie
he wiped out those towns because he needed to destroy their evil, or events that while also caused by god happened as part of the natural actions of the planet and were not directly caused with the aim of destroying these towns.

I understand it very well. Went to a private school dependant of a missionary group of nuns, they filled me with christian propaganda everyday of the week. So God gives it freely you say? Ha! This is even funnier. That will mean that even if you do follow his path (whatever it is, with all the contradictions) you could end up without a gift then? As I said God in all religions is no more than a tyrant. And this happens wheter you accept your questionable premise (freely) or mine (conditional

he gives it freely to everyone who wants it and repent of their sins, and yet again i feel obliged to explain the path to you, love your neighbour, the rest comes from there, tyrant?, god is not so much like a dictator as a parent, he wants what is best for you but most importantly allows you to make your own choices, those are not the actions of a tyrant.

You still don't get it, right? Why did I quote the New Testament paragraphs huh?
Caused by God?

all of the bibles teachings are subordinate to the golden rule, to love your neighbour

[Byzantine Mercenary]

But there is this little problem that the various versions of the Bible (and I mean the ones within 300 years after Jesus' death, not something like King James') are different. Which one is Jesus' words?
If they were wrong, why write them down as God's will in the first place? Did God...change his mind? And, according to the Old Testament, God intervened several times acting with Old Testament ideals in mind; some of which contradicted with the New Testament's message.
Yes, I've seen some theories. Nothing as strong as the Trojan one yet, though.

The hand of God in it...on the other hand, might cause some major contradictions.
Will he be in Hell or Heaven? Of my limited understanding, Christianity requires faith in God more than actions. (Not for Catholics, though, but Phelps is technically a Protestant.) His actions are vile, but he most likely is faithful, isn't he?
The way of the Commandments are not to give practical reasons, I believe, because it leaves open the debate. So something as concrete as "unnatural" is necessary to force the rules--if you say "we need population so make some babies" others might argue differently; if you say "God says it's unnatural" nobody in most ancient societies will dare to break the rule.

well once again i am ansering the same question, GOD DID NOT CHANGE HIS MIND (im only writing in caps to make it clear, im not yelling, lol , but times changed, so that the interpretation of gods rules also changed and the old testament is not the direct word of god it is a translation of an origional hebrew text all writeing is open to interpretation, yes even the parts that may seem clear i think in many ways jesus guided us to gods truth and tryed to remove the stuffyness that the jewish authoritys had added. on the questions of Phelps i cannot tell you what gods judgement on him will be, neither can i tell you if he is indoctrinated with false teachings or something worse.

when it comes down to it, and this is something that many atheists dont understand i am a christian because of the proof that god has given me now, not just for the prooof from the past, i have seen him guideing me and have seen his love in the people around me both christian and non christian. and also most importantly because the message that he gives makes sense to me, it fits exactly the way that i would expect an infinately loveing god to act.

I can't comment on individual christians faith and doubtless some have used god's teachings to their own advantage

[Soulforged]

when did jesus say kill the egiptions?

This is getting tired. Jesus equals God or not, the Holy Trinity is not part of your belief system? (even the frase belief system is an oxymoron).

Youe think i don't believe god did it.?

Not at all, I want to KNOW if you do.

there is a difference between faith and understanding i do not and i believe cannot understand all of gods actions. i was attempting to transfer these events which like all events i believe were caused by or were the will of god into two seperate categorys those used by god directly for a reason, ie
he wiped out those towns because he needed to destroy their evil, or events that while also caused by god happened as part of the natural actions of the planet and were not directly caused with the aim of destroying these towns.

And again I tell you, the WORD OF GOD, tells you that HE destroyed several towns completely, even turning people into salt. Now do you believe in it or not? Because taking the Bible literally and not doing so might be the sole argument that you should argue about.

he gives it freely to everyone who wants it and repent of their sins, and yet again i feel obliged to explain the path to you, love your neighbour, the rest comes from there, tyrant?, god is not so much like a dictator as a parent, he wants what is best for you but most importantly allows you to make your own choices, those are not the actions of a tyrant.

He gives it FREELY again, that means that HE gives it, there's no rules, he could decide if you should or shouldn't make it into his house. Yes they're the actions of a tyrant, this is one is sitted in his marfil tower waiting in the Heavens, to decide who is worthy and who has messed up following his uniequivoque vission and absolute (it can't be good) conception of the truth. He has all the powers in him, he's all and is in all at the same time, the universe revolves around it's figure, men do fight in his name and praise to him, men keep staking lies in his name...He's the best tyrant ever, a tyrant so mixed in the moral views of man that he passes by like the savior and the one who gives the mortals the freedom to do what they want in the material world (this despreciable little existence) while he waits to make his true judgement someday and determine the rest of eternity, by his own rules, his own vissions and only by redempting to him and only him. Now you can see it like a "benevolent tyrant" but he's a tyrant nontheless, he's the tyrant of Heaven.

all of the bibles teachings are subordinate to the golden rule, to love your neighbour

No the rules are not clear. It always has been love God and only God because his path is the truth and the justice. Later some doctrinary with some little brain inside his skull did a little transformation turning words to fit an agenda: God's inside all of us, he's on everything, on everywhere at the same time. Thus turning the object of the rule facing the fellow man instead of the tyrant.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

This is getting tired. Jesus equals God or not, the Holy Trinity is not part of your belief system? (even the frase belief system is an oxymoron).

no i think you misunderstand me, i do not believe that the old testament is the direct word of god, for two reasons, firstly it was originaly writen in hebrew and all texts lose part of their full meaning when translated, secondly it was written for people with a different social background for a different time in history than me and finaly because the people writeing it down could have imposed their own beliefs on gods teaching.

Not at all, I want to KNOW if you do.

I thought i ansered this

these events which like all events i believe were caused by or were the will of god

And again I tell you, the WORD OF GOD, tells you that HE destroyed several towns completely, even turning people into salt. Now do you believe in it or not? Because taking the Bible literally and not doing so might be the sole argument that you should argue about.

i ansered this too

there is a difference between faith and understanding i do not and i believe cannot understand all of gods actions. i was attempting to transfer these events which like all events i believe were caused by or were the will of god into two seperate categorys those used by god directly for a reason, ie
he wiped out those towns because he needed to destroy their evil, or events that while also caused by god happened as part of the natural actions of the planet and were not directly caused with the aim of destroying these towns.

He gives it FREELY again, that means that HE gives it, there's no rules, he could decide if you should or shouldn't make it into his house. Yes they're the actions of a tyrant, this is one is sitted in his marfil tower waiting in the Heavens, to decide who is worthy and who has messed up following his uniequivoque vission and absolute (it can't be good) conception of the truth. He has all the powers in him, he's all and is in all at the same time, the universe revolves around it's figure, men do fight in his name and praise to him, men keep staking lies in his name...He's the best tyrant ever, a tyrant so mixed in the moral views of man that he passes by like the savior and the one who gives the mortals the freedom to do what they want in the material world (this despreciable little existence) while he waits to make his true judgement someday and determine the rest of eternity, by his own rules, his own vissions and only by redempting to him and only him. Now you can see it like a "benevolent tyrant" but he's a tyrant nontheless, he's the tyrant of Heaven.

He gives his forgivness unconditionally to everyone who wants it, he doesn't decide, onces again he is not a tyrant because we have free will thats why he sent jesus for everyone, to die for everyone, to forgive everyones sins

No the rules are not clear. It always has been love God and only God because his path is the truth and the justice. Later some doctrinary with some little brain inside his skull did a little transformation turning words to fit an agenda: God's inside all of us, he's on everything, on everywhere at the same time. Thus turning the object of the rule facing the fellow man instead of the tyrant.

what you are suggesting is not only unfounded it also does not make any sense, why add a passage saying that you should love everyone even your enemys?, also this message is repeated throughout the old testament. surely it is just as likely if not more so that someone added the passages in the old testament about god destroying towns to give religious backing to wars?

[Soulforged]

no i think you misunderstand me, i do not believe that the old testament is the direct word of god, for two reasons, firstly it was originaly writen in hebrew and all texts lose part of their full meaning when translated, secondly it was written for people with a different social background for a different time in history than me and finaly because the people writeing it down could have imposed their own beliefs on gods teaching.

So Jesus is not the son of God...No wait logic does not applies to religion!!

I thought i ansered this

Yes you did, however a lot of "buts" followed that answer.

i ansered this too

I think that the Bible tells you exactly why "he" "did" what "he" "did". Because they were evil, they didn't follow "his" way.

He gives his forgivness unconditionally to everyone who wants it, he doesn't decide, onces again he is not a tyrant because we have free will thats why he sent jesus for everyone, to die for everyone, to forgive everyones sins

What freewill? If you don't pity him you'll end up in the eternal flames. No those are unreconciliable possitions. If God is real, then you cannot change reality by saying different things. The jews still believe in predetermined fate...But wait that mistake again....logic does not applies to religion...

what you are suggesting is not only unfounded it also does not make any sense, why add a passage saying that you should love everyone even your enemys?

Why not? After all having fame is not a worthless achievement.

also this message is repeated throughout the old testament.

Where? And sure it adds, God's the truth and the justice, and followed by kill the sinners.

surely it is just as likely if not more so that someone added the passages in the old testament about god destroying towns to give religious backing to wars?

You've to be joking, those passages were written by God.

[AntiochusIII]

well once again i am ansering the same question, GOD DID NOT CHANGE HIS MIND (im only writing in caps to make it clear, im not yelling, lol , but times changed, so that the interpretation of gods rules also changed and the old testament is not the direct word of god it is a translation of an origional hebrew text all writeing is open to interpretation, yes even the parts that may seem clear i think in many ways jesus guided us to gods truth and tryed to remove the stuffyness that the jewish authoritys had added.

Therefore I presume you are saying that the texts cannot be taken literally. Again, might I repeat this question (to your annoyance ): how, then, shall we understand God? You have vaguedly answered that we should follow the Way of Jesus Christ. But, since the texts are clearly inconsistent (among the various versions of the New Testament), the words of Jesus is lost to later generations. How, then, shall we understand God?

on the questions of Phelps i cannot tell you what gods judgement on him will be, neither can i tell you if he is indoctrinated with false teachings or something worse.

Oh well. I suppose I must follow a Christian's logic: only God can judge. It is, by the way, different from the principles of the secular political systems, which require somebody living (or documents legislated by somebody living) to judge.

when it comes down to it, and this is something that many atheists dont understand i am a christian because of the proof that god has given me now, not just for the prooof from the past, i have seen him guideing me and have seen his love in the people around me both christian and non christian. and also most importantly because the message that he gives makes sense to me, it fits exactly the way that i would expect an infinately loveing god to act.

Seen? Proof? Please prove it to me. It might be God touching you or it might just be your faith. Perhaps I cannot argue that point with you. Then perhaps I will have to ask this: how does God's message to you make sense? How is "he" infinitely loving, if there is punishment and Hell? You might claim he gives forgiveness freely. But, ah, if but one soul is not saved (if there is a soul...I hope so ) then God is not infinite in this term.

I can't comment on individual christians faith and doubtless some have used god's teachings to their own advantage

Agreed.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

So Jesus is not the son of God...No wait logic does not applies to religion!!
Yes you did, however a lot of "buts" followed that answer.
I think that the Bible tells you exactly why "he" "did" what "he" "did". Because they were evil, they didn't follow "his" way.
What freewill? If you don't pity him you'll end up in the eternal flames. No those are unreconciliable possitions. If God is real, then you cannot change reality by saying different things. The jews still believe in predetermined fate...But wait that mistake again....logic does not applies to religion...
Why not? After all having fame is not a worthless achievement. Where? And sure it adds, God's the truth and the justice, and followed by kill the sinners. You've to be joking, those passages were written by God.

you don't apear to be listening to me and in that way you are being quite offensive i have explained repeatedly that i don't think that god literally wrote the old testament, i don't know how this guy you invented managed to 'add' the love your neighbour theme to the new testament (along with the good samaritan story i assume) and i know even less how you can deem this doctrinary famous, you missunderstand my point about changeing the old testament i just meant that there would be more to gain from adding a passage incoraging vilence

Where? And sure it adds, God's the truth and the justice, and followed by kill the sinners.

Sorry, i meant new testament

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Therefore I presume you are saying that the texts cannot be taken literally. Again, might I repeat this question (to your annoyance ): how, then, shall we understand God? You have vaguedly answered that we should follow the Way of Jesus Christ. But, since the texts are clearly inconsistent (among the various versions of the New Testament), the words of Jesus is lost to later generations. How, then, shall we understand God?

well, there are many way to understand god and i can assure you that the main message of jesus is intact, love your neighbour, God is love, thats what he is thats all you need to understand


[QUOTE=AntiochusIII]Oh well. I suppose I must follow a Christian's logic: only God can judge. It is, by the way, different from the principles of the secular political systems, which require somebody living (or documents legislated by somebody living) to judge.{/QUOTE]

yes and perhaps giveing humans the power to judge has caused some of the problems accociated with this system

Seen? Proof? Please prove it to me. It might be God touching you or it might just be your faith. Perhaps I cannot argue that point with you. Then perhaps I will have to ask this: how does God's message to you make sense? How is "he" infinitely loving, if there is punishment and Hell? You might claim he gives forgiveness freely. But, ah, if but one soul is not saved (if there is a soul...I hope so ) then God is not infinite in this term.
Agreed.

im short of time at the moment i will anser this in full tomorrow for you

[Soulforged]

you don't apear to be listening to me and in that way you are being quite offensive i have explained repeatedly that i don't think that god literally wrote the old testament,

Of course he didn't, he inspired.

i don't know how this guy you invented managed to 'add' the love your neighbour theme to the new testament (along with the good samaritan story i assume)

This guy is from the papal office, a simple explanatory quote beneath the main text in your Bible. Or maybe doctrine of interpretation given to me from the christian authorities.

and i know even less how you can deem this doctrinary famous

You mean deem as judge? Well I'm not judging him,

you missunderstand my point about changeing the old testament i just meant that there would be more to gain from adding a passage incoraging vilence

You mean that I give you a passage when it encourages violence?

Sorry, i meant new testament

Adding kill the sinners?

I don't mean to be offensive, really. Many times this religion subject escapes my senses and my reason, that's why I sound offensive. In any case none of them were personal attacks.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Of course he didn't, he inspired. This guy is from the papal office, a simple explanatory quote beneath the main text in your Bible. Or maybe doctrine of interpretation given to me from the christian authorities. You mean deem as judge? Well I'm not judging him,You mean that I give you a passage when it encourages violence?
Adding kill the sinners?

I don't mean to be offensive, really. Many times this religion subject escapes my senses and my reason, that's why I sound offensive. In any case none of them were personal attacks.

maybe i haven't heard of this guy because im not a catholic but ive never heard him talked about, what is his name?

I often find the actions and beliefs of atheists beyond my reason their minds seem closed to even the possibility of a god.

[Puzz3D]

I often find the actions and beliefs of atheists beyond my reason their minds seem closed to even the possibility of a god.

The existence or non-existence of god cannot be proven. Immanuel Kant showed that you cannot prove god exists by reasoning, and the belief that the bible or any other religious book is the word of god is highly questionable. Believe it if you want, but to me it's a simplistic way of trying to grasp the nature of existence. Religious ideology is used by people to impose a certain way of thinking on others without proof that the world actually works that way.

[Soulforged]

maybe i haven't heard of this guy because im not a catholic but ive never heard him talked about, what is his name?

I don't know his name, "he" problaby was anonymous.

I often find the actions and beliefs of atheists beyond my reason their minds seem closed to even the possibility of a god.

Well I had endless threads about it, but to do a sintesys I'll try to explain it in a few words: God is no more than an idea. God is also absolute or you believe in him or you don't, there's no middle term, there's no possibility.
Of course there's still people trying to proove that "he" is real, but those tries are so futile from the scientific point of view as irrelevant. If you've faith then good for you, my only life is this one, the real one.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

I don't know his name, "he" problaby was anonymous.
Well I had endless threads about it, but to do a sintesys I'll try to explain it in a few words: God is no more than an idea. God is also absolute or you believe in him or you don't, there's no middle term, there's no possibility.
Of course there's still people trying to proove that "he" is real, but those tries are so futile from the scientific point of view as irrelevant. If you've faith then good for you, my only life is this one, the real one.

well if he was anonymous than how can his aim have been to achieve fame?

what i said was that atheists refuse to accept the possibilityof the existance of god when there is no proof that he does not exist, which seems a little closed minded to me...

seeing as its on a similar subject in guess now would be a good time to anser AntiochusIII's question

Seen? Proof? Please prove it to me. It might be God touching you or it might just be your faith. Perhaps I cannot argue that point with you. Then perhaps I will have to ask this: how does God's message to you make sense? How is "he" infinitely loving, if there is punishment and Hell? You might claim he gives forgiveness freely. But, ah, if but one soul is not saved (if there is a soul...I hope so ) then God is not infinite in this term.

Indeed and i have pondered this question a lot and asked many of my christian friends about it too, firstly i see god in my life through the people around me that help me, and the events that happen that steer me in gods path, there have been events in my life that i would consider miraculous as well as events in the lives of people that i know. You may not believe me but god has ansered all my prayers. I think that a lot of it is in your outlook, if you don't look for the deeper meaning in events around you then you will not see it. On the question of heaven there are two ansers that i can think of offhand, the first is that on their death everyone will see a full perspective on their actions during their life and will find god and so will ask his forgiveness of their sins and so everyone will be in heaven, this is not such and outlandish concept many people who have had near death experiences have said how the experience changed their outlook on life and made them more spiritual.
The second anser is that hell could merely be seperation from god rather than a place of torture so if people don't believe in god and don't wan't to spend eternity with him then he is merely giving them what they want by sending them there.

[Soulforged]

well if he was anonymous than how can his aim have been to achieve fame?

That part of the fame was directed to all christians, but specially to Jesus.

what i said was that atheists refuse to accept the possibilityof the existance of god when there is no proof that he does not exist, which seems a little closed minded to me...

Not at all, I declare myself innocent present some proof that he actually exists. I can give you proof that he's an idea.

Indeed and i have pondered this question a lot and asked many of my christian friends about it too, firstly i see god in my life through the people around me that help me, and the events that happen that steer me in gods path, there have been events in my life that i would consider miraculous as well as events in the lives of people that i know.

That's not proof that's called faith, blind belief that was God what acted in that moment.

You may not believe me but god has ansered all my prayers. I think that a lot of it is in your outlook, if you don't look for the deeper meaning in events around you then you will not see it.

I only look for I can perceive I don't try to distort facts, nor words.

On the question of heaven there are two ansers that i can think of offhand, the first is that on their death everyone will see a full perspective on their actions during their life and will find god and so will ask his forgiveness of their sins and so everyone will be in heaven, this is not such and outlandish concept many people who have had near death experiences have said how the experience changed their outlook on life and made them more spiritual.

That is no proof either, it's your belief and I respect it, but it's no proof.

The second anser is that hell could merely be seperation from god rather than a place of torture so if people don't believe in god and don't wan't to spend eternity with him then he is merely giving them what they want by sending them there.

Well hell is described as the separation of God, but that's actually eternal damnation, away from love, from justice, from eternal life. Away from everything that's true, that's the Abyss.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

That part of the fame was directed to all christians, but specially to Jesus.
Not at all, I declare myself innocent present some proof that he actually exists. I can give you proof that he's an idea.
That's not proof that's called faith, blind belief that was God what acted in that moment. I only look for I can perceive I don't try to distort facts, nor words. That is no proof either, it's your belief and I respect it, but it's no proof.

im still not sure how iserting love your neighbour into the bible would make it more famous or more popular,

proof?, hmm well i guess il start with the many miricles that are performed around the world. ive heard of jesus apearing to people, sending messages through people. i saw on tv a greek authodox woman in palistine was delivering drinks to men working on a church, she fell from the top of the church a long way, and saw a vision of saint george as she fell, when they got to her she didn't have a bruise.

however i think that the best proof of christianity is the message, imagine if everyone embraced the rule, love your neighbour, around the world, if everyone gave generously to each other, if every goverment did the best for its people, surely there would be no war, no crime, all sorts of problems would simply dissapear, what a great world that would be.

Well hell is described as the separation of God, but that's actually eternal damnation, away from love, from justice, from eternal life. Away from everything that's true, that's the Abyss.

yes, the result of this would probably be the same as the first option wouldn't it?

[Soulforged]

im still not sure how iserting love your neighbour into the bible would make it more famous or more popular,

Well it did...Didn't it?

proof?, hmm well i guess il start with the many miricles that are performed around the world.

Oh yes the miracles, wonderful facts that appear to escape all REASON...

ive heard of jesus apearing to people, sending messages through people.

I've heard them too, personally and through the media, however that's not proof just a mention of some generic event. i

saw on tv a greek authodox woman in palistine was delivering drinks to men working on a church, she fell from the top of the church a long way, and saw a vision of saint george as she fell, when they got to her she didn't have a bruise.

Ok but...where is the proof. This last days I heard of this a lot and saw a lot too. For example a woman who believed that the face of Jesus was in the door of his bathroom. A simple wooden formation that she would know if she only visited a workshop sometime. The son also looked at the same door and saw Jesus two times. Other people looked at it and other incredible forms there and then others who didn't saw anything special. What's needed is faith, the ability to distort the facts and adjust reality to your believes, that way you can give the same event two different explanations one real, wich can be prooved, and one false wich cannot, and wich varies subjectively. Why does this happens you might ask? Well because it's an idea, ideas are only subjective happenings there's nothing real in them so they can be turned from person to person.

however i think that the best proof of christianity is the message, imagine if everyone embraced the rule, love your neighbour, around the world, if everyone gave generously to each other, if every goverment did the best for its people, surely there would be no war, no crime, all sorts of problems would simply dissapear, what a great world that would be.

I agree with you, though I don't think that the message is that clear. But then again is a too idealistic vission of the world...And also a discussion in wich I'll not enter. I repeat I agree with you and I follow that rule too, you don't have to be religeous to do such thing.

Edit: Spelling.

[Byzantine Prince]

And the award for most pointless debate ever in the history goes to... this thread.


Mods I beg you to close this annoying thread, it has become worse then an eyesore. Do it for baby Jesus!

[Abokasee]

[I]November 26, 2005
1:30 pm – 2:00 pm

a bit to zealous... i under stand they dont like gay marriges but saying they go to hell is over the top

and saying Dead soldeirs are good is just insulting at least they died bravely

[Puzz3D]

And the award for most pointless debate ever in the history goes to... this thread.

You're loosing the argument, so now it's pointless and you want the thread closed? Christianity is not a tolerant religion who's message is simply love thy neighbor.

[Geoffrey S]

The existence or non-existence of god cannot be proven. Immanuel Kant showed that you cannot prove god exists by reasoning, and the belief that the bible or any other religious book is the word of god is highly questionable. Believe it if you want, but to me it's a simplistic way of trying to grasp the nature of existence. Religious ideology is used by people to impose a certain way of thinking on others without proof that the world actually works that way.

That's the one. The difficult thing about believing is actually is the believing part; being able to tell yourself that no, God can't be proven through our mortal means, but that He does exist. This is something I cannot do, or at least not yet. The Bible was written by mortal hands, and has undoubtedly been corrupted over the millennia; it doesn't represent God for me, hence I find it impossible at the moment to treat it as the truth. I can't put my faith in something so intangible, something based on such unsteady ground. Yet if people believe they can do so, all the better for them.