Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

[dclare4]

Sounds good (have NO idea how you'll make it work but then again you've done magic before) and it's really the way that loyalty/recruitment should work in this time period.

Harlechman

[Geoffrey S]

I really hope this works out, as the system sounds very promising; if done well it should present plenty of interesting choices.

[tutankamon]

Sorry for taking so long with finding the CoA for the shires but i have to get past my exam so be patient... Duke John do you want CoA from exactly 1460- or will modern CoA do?.. i can give you the historically right CoA's but it's will take a bit more time to find it...

[Duke John]

Only the historical ones please. I have searched a bit myself and the list is now a bit shorter. During my search I learned that some titles did not exist at all times and I'm getting the idea that not all shires had dukes or earls and some shires might even share a noble.

I had the idea that each shire had its own heraldic shield which could nicely function as an interface element. But what if we can't find the heraldry of a duke simply because there was no duke? Shall we take the heraldry of a famous Lord?

I'm not from England so this is all new from, but the heir of the English King gets the Duke of Cornwall plus the Prince of Wales titles. I read a few times about Edward, the Prince of Wales recruiting the men from the West and I always thought that it would mean men from Wales, but it probably means Cornish men. Richard Neville was Earl of Salisbury and Warwick. What to do with nobles who have two titles?

What to do with the titles of dead heirs? Should they become regular nobles? Or remain vacant?

[tutankamon]

Only the historical ones please. I have searched a bit myself and the list is now a bit shorter. During my search I learned that some titles did not exist at all times and I'm getting the idea that not all shires had dukes or earls and some shires might even share a noble.

I had the idea that each shire had its own heraldic shield which could nicely function as an interface element. But what if we can't find the heraldry of a duke simply because there was no duke? Shall we take the heraldry of a famous Lord?

Well I have learned from my studies of medieval arkeology at Århus Universitet in denmark that it was quit common for a duke to control more than one shire and by being duke you often acted as count in both shires or you had another count act in your place. This mite be to our advantege since as I recall you have to appoint a gowener in a city if you want to build either units or buildings. so why not change thier title from gowner to count an then give your factions leader a wise called" title: duke of blah blah" and theiby give him some advanteges in leadership and diplomacy. If you have patiense I can come up with a list of which shires formed the dukedoms in 1460+. So to answer your question: it would be natural to take the dukes CoA as a faction symbol and in the case of an independent count (one that does not answer to a duke) we could either go for his CoA or we could make them "rebels".

I'm not from England so this is all new from, but the heir of the English King gets the Duke of Cornwall plus the Prince of Wales titles. I read a few times about Edward, the Prince of Wales recruiting the men from the West and I always thought that it would mean men from Wales, but it probably means Cornish men. Richard Neville was Earl of Salisbury and Warwick. What to do with nobles who have two titles?
What to do with the titles of dead heirs? Should they become regular nobles? Or remain vacant?

Neither am I.. i just love that period and when we have a noble with two or more titles then just call them Edward de blah blah, count of blah blah, duke of blah blah

I'm not shure i understand your last qeustion... if a duke/count dies then his heir takes ower the families CoA but if an heir dies.. then he.. well dies

[tutankamon]

I just had a thought... I know how most of the CoA was organised in england at that time, so i wondering.. could it be possible to to give every member of the family a different CoA?

[Duke John]

Very understandably you are not understanding the system that I am putting into the game.

There is no R:TW family tree, nor are there cities, you cannot build buildings or train units. The strategic part has virtually no resemblence with the original R:TW gameplay. The whole strategic map is practically one big region and only by scripting am I dividing it into different shires in which you can move a la Risk/M:TW.

Each region has a centre/node/interface element that is represented by a heraldic shield. This shield does not represent a castle or something conquerable. It merely says to the player; in this region the Earl of Warwick is the big boss, and if he is loyal to you then by clicking on the heraldic shield he just might raise an army for you. This army will then automatically (by a script) move to a rendez-vous and if it's in the same region as the royal army then they will merge.
A trait will keep track of which armies have merged with the royal army. You cannot view the contents of the army, after all the whole R:TW interface has been disabled. However you will be able to see which nobles have joined the royal army, so you are not entirely left guessing. Once the Yorkist/Rebel/Lancastrian forces meet then real armies with real units will be generated based upon the amount of recruitment, merged forces and popularity. These armies are then placed on a custom battlefield and the battle will automatically commence.

There are only 2 factions (although technically very different from R:TW); the Lancastrians and the Yorkists. Then there are also revolts but they have no goal except to cause abit of trouble (see the Counters section).

I hope to have some representative screenshots ready next week. Only by writing everything down can I keep up with it myself.

could it be possible to to give every member of the family a different CoA?

That was the idea.

if a duke/count dies then his heir takes ower the families CoA

A duke can only die on the battlefield. That is seperate from the duke on the strategic map, who will not die as he represents a region not really a person. Unlike in R:TW these are not linked.

[tutankamon]

sounds complicated.. and a bit like paradox's Crusader kings

[tutankamon]

A duke can only die on the battlefield. That is seperate from the duke on the strategic map, who will not die as he represents a region not really a person. Unlike in R:TW these are not linked.

Ah.. I see... how did you come up with that idea?

[tutankamon]

About the heraldry... I can come up with a concept on how all the heraldry thing works in england (how heraldry differs inside the family)

[tutankamon]

Is there anything else besides the heradry I can help with?

[Templar Knight]

I love the sound of this Duke John, totally unique

[tutankamon]

Hi Duke John how are you doing? is there more i can do besides the heraldry stuff?

[dclare4]

Sorry for the delay...

Realistically you are caught in a bit of a quandary if you want to keep things at the shire level as many nobles would have holdings in various shires and sought to acquire more. While it doesn't really sound as good I would think that something smaller than a shire, a fief or mega-fief of some sort would be easier to find lords and offices for.

I'm thinking that really might be better - the problem then is, when and where do you cut off the list as there were innumerable numbers of local gentry with fiefs but no titles - people like the Bonvilles, Kyriels, Welles', Conyers, Paston, etc. - and the better (thanks to Kingmaker) known Roos, Scrope (Masham was DIFFERENT from Bolton), Grey (Ruthin, Groby, etc.), Herbert, Devreaux (should have been included as he was a top Yorkist adherent and became Lord Ferrers of Chartley), etc.

I have the arms of these folks buried in my old research files but it might take a while to dig them all out. Perhaps yeah, stick to the shire size holdings first but if this thing works, heck I'll dig them out - locations and coats of arms too!

Best wishes,
Harlechman (Clare)

[Duke John]

Harlechman, dividing the shires into smaller regions would technically not be a very wise decision. I have to write a script that enables the AI to base a decision on how the enemy armies are positioned. Very easy to do with 4 regions, a bit more difficult with 40 regions but 100+ regions would make it a nightmare and possibly 100,000s of scripting lines (because scripting commands are far from flexible). I don't know how much R:TW can handle and limiting the amount of regions is one way of safeguarding the feasability of the project.

However there is nothing that can stop us from adding a whole bunch of lords. If the Royal army passes through a shire then it could pick up a whole with his personal retinue. Or the Royal army automatically gains Lords from the 4 most loyal regions. This beefs up the royal army from the start and makes its composition a bit more interesting if it fails to merge with dukes.

So I can certainly use the coat-of-arms that you have found.

Cheers,
Duke John

[tutankamon]

Duke John i have made a list with all the heraldry you wanted for shires... i know many of them aren't from the specific period but niether are the all the shires you have come up with... give me some extra time and ill make you a map. but first of all i need to get past an exam so be patient until then here's something you can work with..

[tutankamon]

Durham


Lincoln

Cambridge

Sussex
Surrey
Northampton
Leicester

Cumbria

Hampshire

Clwyd


Gwynedd
Powys
Dyfed
Hereford
Bristol
Exeter

[tutankamon]

more will come

[Duke John]

tutankamon

i know many of them aren't from the specific period but niether are the all the shires you have come up with

Do you have a map which shows the shires during the Wars of the Roses? I made a map over a year ago for a M:TW mod and don't have the sources anymore. There was a large amount of guesswork and even using games to get complete map of England.

Is there anything else besides the heradry I can help with?

A map of England around 1460 It might make things easier as some shires for which we haven't found dukes or earls are gone.

Cheers,
Duke John

[Duke John]

I went over the map again, basing the shires on the following maps:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...tudor_1485.jpg
http://renaissance.dm.net/compendium/map-england.html

After a bit of searching on wikipedia.org and with what I had already I'm almost done with researching which shires existed and which nobles ruled them.

Green is nothing out of ordinary.
I could not find anything about Berkshire or Middlesex. Middlesex can be replaced by London and an appropiate title.

When an heir or king dies then his titles become unused for the rest of the game.

Any comments?

[tutankamon]

Do you have a map which shows the shires during the Wars of the Roses? I made a map over a year ago for a M:TW mod and don't have the sources anymore. There was a large amount of guesswork and even using games to get complete map of England.

We have a lot of old book about that period in Englands history at our library at Moesgård in Denmark... so I will have a map ready soon but yours look good

[tutankamon]

I was wondering are we gonna aply some historical battle? if so here's a short list of some of the battles..

The Battles of the Wars of the Roses

1st St. Albans - May 1455

The Court met the Yorkists under the Duke of York and the earls of Salisbury and Warwick at a town just north of London. The Court dug-in inside the town. When negotiations broke down, York and Salisbury led the assault upon the barricades in two main streets. The defenders held the barricades and the Yorkists made no progress until Warwick led his reserves through some gardens and broke down the walls of some houses. He broke into the Lancastrians in the middle of the street and their position collapsed. Casualties included the Duke of Somerset, Earl of Northumberland and Lord Clifford killed, King Henry wounded and "captured". Numbers involved were small, probably a few thousand on each side.



Tudor Rose

Blore Heath - September 1459

Lords Audley and Dudley with a larger force of inferior troops, intercepted the Earl of Salisbury near Market Drayton in Shropshire. Both sides initially dug-in. Audley became impatient and ordered an attack upon Salisbury's position. There followed a long, bloody fight in which Audley was killed and Dudley captured. [He turned Yorkist after this battle.] Salisbury led his troops away in a night march, leaving his cannon to fool another Lancastrian force into thinking he'd stayed put. A couple of thousand on each side.



Tudor Rose

Ludford Bridge - September 1459

After pussyfooting around, the two sides met not far from York's castle of Ludlow. The Lancastrians clearly outnumbered the Yorkists, possibly by 2:1. The Yorkists parleyed but, in the night, the Calais garrison under Anthony Trollope defected to the Lancastrians. Realising their battle plans were revealed to the enemy, the Yorkist leaders dismissed their troops and fled abroad. There was no true battle but the Lancastrians sacked Ludlow. 10-20 000 Yorkists and a lot more Lancastrians.



Tudor Rose

Northampton - July 1460

The Yorkists approached a dug-in Lancastrian force outside the town. York's son, Edward, Earl of March led his men in column straight at the Lancastrian left flank. There, Lord Grey de Ruthyn's troops, [nominally Lancastrians], put down their weapons and helped them over the barricades. Then both contingents attacked the Lancastrians' central position. In the face of this treachery, the Lancastrians collapsed and it became a massacre. The noble dead included the Duke of Buckingham, Earl of Shrewsbury and Viscount Beaumont. The Yorkists recaptured King Henry. Up to 20000 Lancastrians and a few more Yorkists.



Tudor Rose

Wakefield - December 1460

The Duke of York and Earl of Salisbury spent Christmas at the Duke's castle of Sandal outside Wakefield in Yorkshire. The Lancastrians moved into the area and began despoiling York's estate. On spying a moderate Lancastrian force near the castle, York, [against the advice of Salisbury and others], ordered a direct attack. As he made contact, two previously concealed Lancastrian forces emerged from nearby woods and surrounded the Yorkists. Those not slain in battle were murdered as they fled, including York's 17-year-old son, Edmund, Earl of Rutland. A couple of thousand Yorkists and 2-3 times as many Lancastrians.



Tudor Rose

Mortimer's Cross - February 1461

March, recruiting near Wales, heard of the disaster at Wakefield and then that the Earls of Pembroke and Wiltshire were recruiting in Wales, themselves. He met them in a small market town in Herefordshire. A vision of three suns in the sky inspired the Yorkists and March positioned his troops with great tactical sense. Wiltshire led his men against the Yorkist right flank, which broke and was pursued. But in the middle, Pembroke was repelled by March's centre and surrounded. Wiltshire returned to succour Pembroke and managed to ford the river. The Yorkist left flank beat back Sir Owen Tudor, [father of Pembroke], and he was captured as the Lancastrians fled; Pembroke and Wiltshire escaped. Sir Owen was beheaded. 4000 Lancastrians, 5000 Yorkists: the Yorkist troops were probably of higher quality than the Lancastrians, too.



Tudor Rose

2nd St. Albans - February 1461

Queen Margaret led a rapacious force of northerners south to be met at St. Albans by Warwick. He dug-in and placed pickets in outlying villages. Alas, some of his pickets slept on the job and the Lancastrians took his position in the flank. In an all-day battle, he fought a rearguard action till nightfall and miraculously withdrew much of his force intact. [The only time a defeated force remained viable.] Treachery may also have played a part in the battle. 9000 Yorkists, 12000 Lancastrians, [though this was but a fraction of the Queen's total force].



Tudor Rose

Towton - March 1461

The two sides met in Yorkshire on the river Aire, halfway between Doncaster and York. Preliminary skirmishes at Ferrybridge saw the deaths of Lord Fitzwalter for the Yorkists and Lord Clifford for the Lancastrians. Then, at Towton, 15000 Yorkists faced 25000 Lancastrians. As driving snow blinded the Lancastrians, Lord Fauconberg ordered the Yorkist archers to step forward and shoot a single volley at the enemy. When the Lancastrians replied, their arrows fell short but they couldn't know it. The Yorkists then picked up the spent arrows and shot back accurately as the wind carried their arrows further. Stung by the arrow storm, the Lancastrian main force attacked.

Despite the arrows, the Yorkists gave way under the weight of numbers. They were saved from immediate destruction by the late arrival of the Duke of Norfolk. Under his attack on the Lancastrian left, the Lancastrians slowly gave way until they broke in late afternoon and all that evening and night turned into a massacre. King Henry, Queen Margaret and Prince Edward escaped but the Earl of Northumberland died and the Yorkists captured and beheaded the earls of Devon and Wiltshire. The precise numbers involved on either side are very disputable but everyone is agreed that a *very* high fraction of the combatants were killed. In relative terms, it was bloodier than the Somme.



Tudor Rose

Hedgeley Moor - April 1464

In little more than a skirmish, Lord Montagu surprised Somerset with 500 men near the Scottish border. Several of the Lancastrian captains, realising that they were sure to lose, ran away and the main force scattered. Somerset and the others escaped thanks to Sir Ralph Percy, who refused to flee and died on the battlefield.



Tudor Rose

Hexham - May 1464

Three weeks later, Montagu and 4000 men again intercepted Somerset with only 500 at another town near the Scots border. Somerset picked what he thought was a good defensive position but which was actually a trap; [all the Beauforts were poor generals]. Montagu blocked the only exit and charged directly. The Lancastrian force broke at the sight of the enemy, most were killed but a few were captured, including Somerset. Montagu ordered his beheading.



Tudor Rose

Edgecote - July 1469

The Yorkist earls of Pembroke, [different to that met at Mortimer's Cross - Herbert], and Devon, [likewise not a Courtenay but a Stafford], were outnumbered when they had to face Robin of Redesdale, a few miles from Banbury in Oxfordshire. The battle centred on control of a ford over the Cherwell. Pembroke won the first round and forced the withdrawal of Redesdale but Warwick, [the same as before but now a Lancastrian], appeared with 15000 men. Devon panicked and his men routed but Pembroke fought on and nearly won but a small force of cavalry took his men in the rear. Warwick executed Pembroke and his brother. His Welshmen took 2-4 000 casualties but deaths were high on all sides. Commoners captured Devon at Bridgwater and murdered him for his cowardice.



Tudor Rose

Losecote Field - March 1470

Edward IV, [last heard of as March], met with rebel sympathisers near Stamford at the Lincolnshire/ Rutland border. Edward had a lot of well-armed and trained troops; the rebels were peasants under Sir Robert Welles. The rebels broke under concentrated artillery bombardment before being engaged hand-to-hand. Edward called off the pursuit to prevent a massacre. The three rebel captains, Sir Robert Welles, Sir Thomas De la Lande and Sir Thomas Dymoke were all beheaded after their confessions had implicated Warwick and Edward's brother, George Duke of Clarence.



Tudor Rose

Barnet - April 1471

Warwick, the Duke of Exeter, Earl of Oxford and Montagu with 12000 men faced Edward IV, Richard Duke of Gloucester and Lord Hastings with 9000 men at a village between London and St. Albans. Warwick had a large artillery train but it was useless in the damp, foggy weather. Because of the fog, the armies aligned crookedly. Gloucester overlapped Exeter on the Lancastrian left and on the other flank, Oxford overlapped Hastings. When the two sides came together, this staggering caused the two lines to swing from an East/ West alignment to North/ South. Warwick saved Exeter by leading the reserves to take Gloucester in the flank. On the other side, Oxford pursued Hastings' force when it broke. Things looked very bleak for the Yorkists. Their left flank had broken, their right was giving way and only the reserves had prevented the centre from falling back. Then Oxford managed to rally a few of his troops and came back to take the Yorkists in the rear. However, in the fog and thanks to the turning of the line, he charged into Montagu's men by mistake and they mistook the Oxford emblem of a Star with Streams for Edward's of a Sun in Splendour. Then, when Oxford was recognised, cries of treason went up from the ranks and Montagu's men panicked. When Exeter fell in the fighting, the line broke. Warwick died in the subsequent rout.



Tudor Rose

Tewkesbury - May 1471

After Warwick's death, Edward set about chasing Queen Margaret. Having destroyed the bridges over the Avon and Severn, Edward finally caught up with her army at a town midway between Gloucester and Worcester. Somerset, [brother of the previous], set Lord Wenlock to oversee Edward, Prince of Wales in the centre. Devon, [again a Courtenay], commanded the left, Somerset himself took the right. The Lancastrians numbered 5-6 000. The Yorkists had only 3500 to 5000 but were in much better condition and were better troops. Somerset's battle plan was for Wenlock to attack the centre, holding Edward IV's army while Somerset's division swung around the flank into Gloucester's force. However, Edward had spotted the likelihood of this and protected his flank with a concealed force of 200 spearmen. When these took Somerset in his own flank, his plan fell apart. Contrary to orders, Wenlock held back the centre; Somerset found himself surrounded by Gloucester's men and Edward's reserves. His men were cut to pieces. Somerset himself is said to have fought his way back to the centre, accused Wenlock of treachery and killed him with a poll-axe, but this is almost certainly untrue as the battle collapsed too quickly for this sequence of events. The familiar massacre occurred with Somerset, Wenlock, Prince Edward all dying with many others. There are a lot of stories about how the Prince died but he was probably cut down in the rout. With him died all hope of a Lancastrian recovery. His father died in the Tower shortly after, "of pure melancholy", [yeah - right], and Queen Margaret retired to ignominy in France, a broken woman.



Tudor Rose

Bosworth - August 1485

Richard III, [Gloucester in the above], had usurped his nephew, Edward V. The Princes in the Tower were almost certainly dead by the time that Henry Tudor, Earl of Richmond landed in Wales with a force of French mercenaries. With him was his uncle, Jasper, Earl of Pembroke, [remember Mortimer's Cross?]. People flocked to Richmond's banner as he marched towards London. Richard III met him at a town west of Leicester and north of Coventry. He took a position atop a small hill. With Richard were the Duke of Norfolk, [grandson of the previous], and the Earl of Northumberland, [son of the previous and now a Yorkist]. Richmond led his smaller force to the foot of the hill. Both sides were fairly equal in numbers. To the North and

South were significant forces under Lord Stanley and his brother, William. The battle took only two hours. Richard tried to make the Stanleys join on his side by threatening to kill Stanley's son, Lord Strange. [Richard had asked for a hostage against just this sort of treachery.] Stanley replied, "I have other sons!" Richard and Norfolk engaged but it became clear they were losing. Northumberland refused to support Richard with the reserves and then the Stanleys engaged on Richmond's side. Richard made one last attempt to attack Richmond personally but was cut down on the field. He remains the only English King to have died in battle since the Norman Conquest. Lord Stanley handed the crown to Henry Tudor and he promptly crowned himself Henry VII. Thus, the Tudors replaced the Plantagenet dynasty after 331 years. The people of York lynched Northumberland few years later. His retinue just watched them do it and it's said that Northumberland's treachery to Richard III at Bosworth lost him their loyalty.



Tudor Rose

There were a few other raids, skirmishes and sieges but that's basically it. You could also include the battle of Stoke June 1487 when Lambert Simnel, pretending to be Edward V met his comeuppance near Newark in Nottinghamshire.

[Incongruous]

You might wan't to change it from Bosworth to Redmorre as it was known.
What are you going to do about independant affinities?
Government titles were possibly the key factor in the creation of the war, will they factor.
As for this duke thing, alot of the time if a duke was captured he would be executed and have no heir his lands would then be given to another man. So you might want to read up about all the hiers each majore Duke/Earl had during the period. So if enough of a certain number of these Lords die upon these fields you could make so that his lands are given to another lord.

[Duke John]

Tutankamon
I might first release a battle pack, but I also want to research how much is possible before acting like I'm finishing it one day.

Bopa the Magyar

What are you going to do about independant affinities?

I don't understand what you mean. Could you explain it a bit more?

Government titles were possibly the key factor in the creation of the war, will they factor.

I have yet to look into that. Titles would give some bonuses to popularity, power or extra units so it would add another layer of depth to the gameplay. At the moment I don't know much of this is possible and wether I can make an userfriendly interface around it.
If you can come up with a set of rules that makes it clear when a title is given and when it was taken away then you would certainly help me.

So if enough of a certain number of these Lords die upon these fields you could make so that his lands are given to another lord.

Having different names for each noble would be near impossible. Since most nobles are mentioned after their title I think this isn't that bad.
What you propose is possible, but making it clear to the player how many heirs are left is not, or at least it would be a waste of resources. If that is not an issue then I can easily include it.
Or I can add a script that gives the dead noble at random an heir or not. If has an heir then the noble will remain loyal to the original faction. If not then it will become loyal to the faction that has the most popular support.

[Incongruous]

Affinities- In the wars of the Roses fighting was done primarily between the nobility aka knights in large numbers and men-at-arms aka proffenssional soldiers. The men of lesser stature were left almost untouched even benefitted. Lords would take into battle not a feudal levy but their only private army consisting of very heavily armoured foot soldiers and foot knights plus archers. These men were bound to their Lord as he offered them protection from the law, as these men were themselves lesser nobles/gentry who had their own agenda eg. if lower noble says another of his rank has a castle he should own he breaks the kings law and goes off and beseiges it starting a private feud. Now the man he is fighting also has a higher lord who protects him. Thus the two nobles covertly support their "thugs with men and money". As these Higher Lords or Magnates were so powerful the king could do nothing. Such relationships were known as Affinities, basically local warlords and their thugs. Thus the names of Englands pube, the "Bear" would signify the Bear and Ragged staff the symbol of the Earl of Warwick meaning that it was in his territiry.

[Duke John]

This project is abandoned. I am no longer modding R:TW. While the 3D engine is fantastic I can no longer enjoy a game of R:TW. Replacing the continuous strategic map and techtree with my concept might have given me some fun, but there are always remains the AI... I'll just leave it at that.

I found it very enjoyable to talk about game mechanics, so many thanks for all the comments!

Cheers,
DJ

[tutankamon]

This project is abandoned. I am no longer modding R:TW. While the 3D engine is fantastic I can no longer enjoy a game of R:TW.
DJ

that's sad to hear I was looking forward to se a mod like this and by your record of previous projekts i have no doubt it would have been great

But with your permission I would like to give it a go and see if there's anyone ells who would like to make it come true, although in a slightly other fasion..

[dclare4]

Och!! Arrrgghhh... :(

[Duke John]

It doesn't end here for me

[Geoffrey S]

You're making a new engine? Or using another game? Whatever you're doing, I wish you good luck!