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Thread: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

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    Senior Member Senior Member Duke John's Avatar
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    Default Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    I am longtime fan of the Wars of the Roses and it has always been a wish to create a game that captures the atmosphere of the period. I tried it with M:TW, but after I finished a few units I abandoned it as soon as R:TW hit the shelves. Now I have learned a lot about scripting and I am beginning to believe that I can finally make my wish a reality.

    However I am stuck in the conceptual design. I have a few ideas, but before I press on and make it a real project I need to have the ideas thought out resulting in a concept that should work. Below are a few of them:

    Interface
    I will eliminate the standard user interface of R:TW. Instead there will be 3D objects on which the player can click or which will display information. A book will show events or general information of nobles, a writing feather will show the diplomatic view/options while a sword will enable military view/options.

    Game phases
    There are no regular turns, in fact the whole game will be played within a single turn. However with the use of scripts there will be turns which probably are divided into phases; political, military

    Campaign map
    The R:TW map will be replaced with a map a la M:TW since I find the boardgame style much more suiting for the atmosphere. The map will get the look of a parchment map laying on a wooden table. There will be shires and some of them will be divided up to give more options in movement.

    Armies
    There will be no techtree. There was no real standing army during this period. Instead armies were mustered when needed and disbanded when the campaign ended, which only lasted for a few weeks at the most. If an army is ordered to be mustered it will be created in the shire of the noble, which can then be picked up. As a result of this the opposing factions will need to fight a strategic game in which they try to pick up as many friendly armies while preventing the opponent from doing the same (as it happened in history).
    The composition of armies will be set (with perhaps a little randomization) with more powerfull armies having more and better equipped troops. Troops will have their own livery and banners so when you have several nobles you will see their personal regiments on the battlefield.

    Fully scripted strategic AI
    The strategic AI also gets ditched and I will make scripts that will ensure that the computer opponent can cope with these new rules.

    Royal family
    The game places you in the role of either the Lancastrian or Yorkist family. You have will have 4 or 5 heirs in your royal family and it is your aim to elimate the entire opposing royal family.

    Nobles
    The royal army is not very large so you need to depend on allied nobles. To attract the nobles you will need to play a political game. I was thinking that you receive a number of loyalty counters which you can give to the nobles. Once a noble has enough loyalty you can ask him to raise troops once you start a campaign. However the other faction can also place counters. As their loyalty changes they may decide to not answer your call-to-arms or switch sides.

    Events
    Coronation: to make your heir king you need to move him into the London area. The opposing faction can hinder you by blocking the way with an army. The coronation is important since kingship will you give more loyalty counters.
    Alliance with France: this will give the Lancastrian faction the option to flee to the continent. You will also receive French mercenaries.
    Alliance with Burgundy; this will give the Yorkist faction the option to flee to the continent. You will also receive Burgundian mercenaries.

    Random events
    Most boardgames have a stack of cards that introduce random events and this could be interesting to spice up the game a bit.

    Evasion
    When the situation in England has gone particularly bad, for example after a big battle leaving you with no forces it is possible to evade. The Yorkists can flee to Ireland or Burguny when allied. The Lancastrians can flee to Scotland or France when allied. When in these countries the heir/king can play a political game by encouraging revolts by loyal nobles and once the chance is there he will be given local troops and a single chance to return to England and reclaim the throne.

    Battles
    The auto-generated maps will also be removed (what am I keeping? ). Instead the battles will all be played on custom maps so they will be far more interesting than the barren wastelands of R:TW. Once a battle has ended a seperate script will tell which nobles have been captured or killed. Captured nobles can be executed (if possible to script). If a noble is dead then he will either be replaced by his son or by a new noble family who is loyal to your faction.
    Since you cannot raise armies that easily your situation will be very uncomfortable when you lose a battle. This will make the battles more dramatic as the future of your faction can depend on the outcome.



    Hopefully you now understand that this idea is to create something entirely different from the other mods, so you shouldn't compare them. I want to make gameplay similar to that of boardgames so the conceptual design is also different then of the other mods which are primarily about how to fill the factions slots and techtree. I need to create new rules and I ask for your help. Above you could read a few features but it still feels a bit empty and I am still not sure wether it would be worth the effort. So my question to you is wether you could come up with features, rules or other ideas to make this concept more appealing.


    Cheers,
    Duke John


    P.S. Please do not question/comment on the technical issues. I am not really troubled with them as most of them are already tested.

  2. #2
    Forever British Member King Ragnar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    Just wondering, you say all the technical issues are tested, is there any screenshots just to prove it, im not doubting you i just would like to see.
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  3. #3
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    If you do half of that, I'll name my next dog after you. And perhaps my children.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Duke John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    King Ragnar, I don't have the bits modded into the game anymore. And you wouldn't have seen much anyway.

    Alexander the Pretty Good, what do you like especially? From your reaction I gather that you like the concept, but what makes it so appealing to you? If I know that then I could strengthen it. At the moment I have only myself and I really need more input to continue.

  5. #5
    nudge nudge, wink wink Member GrimSta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    just a little idea for the nobles, perhaps when you win a battle in whihc you are outnumberd, say 2:1 or more, and there is a noble nearby, it could increase their loyalty (they will start to see you as a "proper englishman" and a good leader too)
    eg:

    2:1 +1.5% loyalty
    3:1 +2.5% loyalty
    4:1 +3.5% loyalty
    etc etc
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    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    Sounds good. I particularly like the way it lends itself to a more structured game, allowing you more freedom as to what the AI can get up to and hence allowing a more capable strategic AI to be implemented.

    Best of luck!
    "The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr

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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    Dang? That sounds like a whole new game! Yeah if even half of that is possible... wow!

    You're right about the need for the game to be fought over a more boardgamey style map. The battles were less for land and conquest as they were for political power.

    Was thinking for the minor nobles/leaders you could make specially recruitable retinues that would only be available in that leader's particular area like Bonville, Roos, Scrope, Devreaux.

    If you can find a way to make factions more loyal and not have them change sides every two turns you could take advantage of more factions probably. Then again it will be easier, office and title wise to have just two factions and regional-recruitable nobility.

    If you know enough about scripting you got it all over the rest of us. I'm limited to thinking 'within the box'.

    Was thinking of having a 'Parliament section' - you create a landmass surrounded by mountains or other impassable terrain and within you have nothing but diplomats of the various factions. Thus you always have diplomatic channels open because they can't kill each other and wheeling and dealing becomes more important than battlefield victories.

    Thinking of factions based on BI:

    Lancaster - WRE
    Tudor - WRR (the rebel factions would function not as rebels but as a sort of emergent faction that comes into play on the faction's demise or plays second fiddle to the main faction and takes over the rights of the faction when it disappears)

    York - ERE
    de la Pole - ERR

    Mowbray/Howard of Norfolk (Earl Marshal who would start out neutral and is courted by both sides for his potential power)
    Stafford of Buckingham (could head the 'moderate' Lancs w/c can come to an accomodation with the Yorkists)
    Beaufort of Somerset (alternately he could be in command of the diehard Lancs and the Lanc party, dudes like Clifford, de Vere and Holland)
    Neville of Warwick (this faction would technically be split up into something like three - old Neville of Salisbury should be Richard Duke of York's loyal compatriot, young Neville of Warwick should be the leader of the main Neville faction with his brothers as 'heirs' and ancient Neville of Westmorland would be a pretty weak but present rival)
    Percy of Northumberland (leader of the northern Lancs)
    Talbot of Shrewsbury (leader of the Welsh Lancs)
    Courtenay of Devon (leader of the West Country Lancs)
    Fitzalan of Arundel (leader of the moderates and minor nobility)
    Stanley
    Herbert (along with Devreaux, Lord Ferrers of Chartley, leader of the Yorkist Welsh)
    Hastings
    Audley/Touchet (leader of the north midland lords)

    Foreigners and Irish
    Scotland - under king James
    Douglas - his main rival
    France - under king Louis. Burgundy could be abstracted.
    Butler of Ormonde - chief Lanc lord in Ireland
    Fitzgerald of Desmond - chief York lord in Ireland

    One model I can probably point to is the Paradox game Crusader Kings. It's got the best (to my knowledge) noble-vassal and inheritance and family relationship system in computer gaming today. I was trying to mod a War of the Roses game in it but the project was WAY over my head and no one was interested so I threw in the towel (I did get as far as modding in the Courtenay and Bonville families from the west country - which surprisingly are cousins!!) The lovely thing here was you DID NOT gain power by gaining land - you needed to break up your holdings and give away stuff to vassals to keep them happy and to maintain effective control cuz if you controlled too much territory you got a management penalty. So vassalage as well as granting titles (and I modded some titles into offices) was key to the game. Now if you can figure out a way to replicate this in RTW then I'll play Lord Stanley and crown you king at Bosworth!

    Best of luck!
    Clare
    "Ad majoram Dei gloriam"

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    Senior Member Senior Member Duke John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    GeoffreyS
    The AI will only be as clever as I can script it, but I have confidence that it can be a bigger threat than the R:TW AI that sends in armies in pieces.


    GrimSta
    I cannot use percentages but I am tinkering with the idea to implement some kind of "critical mass". After Towton and Tewkesbury the Lancastrians were severely beaten and they had no hope of recruiting new armies anywhere in uthe near future. A few uprisings faded away once they heard of a major victory. So in the game your aim is to set up a big battle and win it so you can make a statement saying: "I am the rightfull king!". But if you lose then run fast since England won't be a safe place anymore. And that will make battles quite a bit more dramatic.


    Ah, I was expecting you already Clare

    Was thinking for the minor nobles/leaders you could make specially recruitable retinues that would only be available in that leader's particular area like Bonville, Roos, Scrope, Devreaux.
    Each noble will get retinues with their own livery and banners. And the retinues will only be available in the shire that the noble controls.

    Was thinking of having a 'Parliament section' - you create a landmass surrounded by mountains or other impassable terrain and within you have nothing but diplomats of the various factions.
    Diplomats or other agents are not used in this game since the diplomatic system would not work. However, do you know wether parliament can be put in the mod somehow? In Kingmaker parliament could be called and depending on the number of votes a player has he could assign empty offices (noble died).

    So vassalage as well as granting titles (and I modded some titles into offices) was key to the game. Now if you can figure out a way to replicate this in RTW then I'll play Lord Stanley and crown you king at Bosworth!
    Perhaps it would have added more replay value if you could control a noble, but that would also mean that there would let's say 15 factions. Since the AI is entirely scripted and the scripting commands are far from flexible it would quickly result in hundred thousands of script lines... which perhaps isn't impossible after all...
    Do you know the boardgame Kingmaker? In that game you control a group of nobles (which vary during the game) and the goal is to be the one that controls the sole king at the end of the game.
    I did think about wether the mod should take the noble point of view. But then you would be stuck with playing mostly with just the noble's retinues. When playing the king you can control many nobles and seeing all their colours on the battlefield is one of the main attractions of this mod.

    I don't think that I could script vassalage. And even then it would probably mean using not user-friendly solutions since my tools are limited. But I might be able to include granting titles.
    I'm limited to thinking 'within the box'.
    Try thinking in terms of boardgames; counters, cards, pieces and a limited amount of them. It's less flexible than a computergame but that doesn't always mean less fun or challenge. Don't think in variables, tons of names/titles/nobles or complicated formulas since I cannot script that.

    Cheers,
    Duke John

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    Forever British Member King Ragnar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    SO are you going for a type of Risk campaign? But with RTW battles, if so will be cool if made. Good Luck
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  10. #10
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    Duke John - some of the things I like are:

    Shiny New Stuff
    - if possible, make this mod as different from RTW as possible. New interfaces, new concepts, new campaign map, all make this a new experiance.

    Less Micromanagement
    - it sounds like armies are created very differently. I've always wanted to generate a full-fledged army in less than a year for use in game - as long as it is historically balanced (meaning painfully expensive). Also, adjusting the movement ala MTW reduces micromanagement (I would think; I don't know how you plan on doing this).

    More Macromanagement
    - if that isn't a word, I'll patent it. I like the ideas of a bigger world with things like real, working allies, coronations, places to flee to, more dynamic-sounding families. Give me more to do than conquer, conquer, build, conquer.

  11. #11
    aka AggonyAdherbal Member Lord Adherbal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    no offence, but after what happened to Sengoku Jidai I think you should either try to get your feet back on the ground and actualy make a mod instead of trying to come up with insane ideas that I doubt you'll ever pull off - or you should program your own game instead of trying to turn RTW into a completly different game.

    Either way, good luck with this. I think you may need it.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Duke John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    Thanks for the comments on what you like, Alexander. However, you cannot really train armies. It goes like this: you play some kind of political game with loyalty counters/offices. Then when you think the time is ripe to strike you start a military campaign. You can then choose a certain number of nobles who you wish to back you up. Wether they actually listen to your call of arms depends on their loyalty. If they do then their armies will be visible on the campmap. You cannot control them (part of the excitement) but they will follow logical paths towards a rendez-vous which you can set. You control the royal army and while en route to the rendez-vous you will pick up more regiments depending on how loyal the region is.

    Meanwhile the enemy is doing the same and at some point you may decide that you do not wait for your allies but confront the enemy sooner. The enemy may of course do the same as the aim is not so much getting the biggest army as preventing the enemy from doing the same. Your allies may also fight a battle prematurely or even dissolve as the opposing forces make them rethink their allegiance.

    You will not fight that many battles as there is a big chance that a heir will be lost during a battle and you only have 4 or 5 heirs. My aim is to give the player a short campaign from which he can remember all battles. When finished it should give the player the feeling that he has rewritten the Wars of the Roses.


    I'll take that as a challenge then Adherbal

    Cheers,
    Duke John
    Last edited by Duke John; 11-28-2005 at 15:57.

  13. #13
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    DJ - that clears it up, and makes me want it even more!

  14. #14
    nudge nudge, wink wink Member GrimSta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    Duke John...the second you release this im going to have an AAR saying how Richard won
    "I'm right and everyone else is wrong or has taken too much LSD."

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    aka AggonyAdherbal Member Lord Adherbal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    I'll take that as a challenge then Adherbal
    fine, it's a win-win situation for me: being proven right, or having an excellent mod to play
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    Actually KINGMAKER the computer version was one reason I got really into this period. If you recall I was thinking of just using the MTW basic Europe map in a 'board game' fashion though it was more boardgame SLASH terrain map kind of thing. With BI however since maps are easier to do you could actually have non-contiguous territories w/c can represent offices or holdings - like the holdings of let's say Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick can be represented scattered across the map, same thing with offices. Then again you can also make it totally 'board gamey' by just making box type areas that players can move into w/c can be just representative of various things.

    I also liked that MTW style 'crusade' function in that you would set a 'rendezvous' or 'objective' territory and the 'crusade' would move toward it, picking up followers as it went along. If you can script this... visors up salut!

    Yes, seeing the banners of the various nobles is a DEFINITE draw. If I had a penny for every time I wanted to do a mod like this just for the sake of seeing the faction banners and coats of arms... speaking of which, any chance of having treachery ON the battlefield?

    If you keep diplomacy in game but only limited to that specific 'Parliament box' as I described previously perhaps you could just have them demand certain 'areas' w/c are linked to titles/offices in the way that they demand control of settlements in BI. However the trick is activating it depending on certain conditions (Parliament in session). For example there's a certain region that represents 'The Earldom of Warwick' - the diplomat from let's say Courtenay can demand that this 'region' be turned over to him in the normal way. If titles can be attached to regions that would be better.

    Cheers,
    Clare
    "Ad majoram Dei gloriam"

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    Senior Member Senior Member Duke John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    Power Counters
    A new idea with a cheap name. Once a military campaign starts, either intiated by the player or the AI, then both factions get a number of Power Counters depending on, lets say, the number of loyal nobles, kingship and offices. These counters represent the power an heir can impose over his subordinates. He cannot expect all of his nobles to raise their armies so he needs to choose which nobles will contribute to the campaign. PCs may also be used to cause revolts, or perhaps it would be best if they were random and not controlled by either faction.

    A campaign may not be decided by a single battle so spending all your PCs might leave you vulnerable for the rest of the campaign as the armies of your nobles will dissolve if their leader is killed or when the campaign takes too long. Hopefully this will add a bit more strategy to the game as players will need to think how many armies he requires.

    An further use of power counters may be that they are used when moving through hostile territory.



    Clare
    Then again you can also make it totally 'board gamey' by just making box type areas that players can move into w/c can be just representative of various things.
    That is possible. What sort of things do you have in mind?

    any chance of having treachery ON the battlefield?
    No, the engine does not allow that.

    Book
    As explained in the first post I will include a book that shows information. This is needed since the standard user interface needs to be disabled to make this concept work. Below is a quick model put into the game. The right page would be readable and could display information like what troops a noble has (always the same) plus his banner. It could also notify the player that an heir has been crowned king or the rules of the game. The book would lie right next to the parchment that displays the map of England. Since the pages are textures I can add fancy stuff like caligraphic lettering, a painted and those large capital letters.
    Last edited by Duke John; 11-28-2005 at 15:58.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Duke John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    The map
    The map will show England divided into the shires, plus the regions that are used when evading the country; Scotland, Ireland, France, Calais and Burgundy (the map texture is from Imperial Glory).

    Each shire will have a 3D shield icon sitting in the middle. Alongside the shield there may a 3D icon showing allegiance of the noble; either a white rose (Yorkist), a red rose (Lancastrian) or no rose (neutral). The shield is used for various interface issues such as movement, giving loyalty counters, setting the rendez-vous and displaying a page from the book.

    Since the map has a large open space in the right top corner I think I will place the book there on a book stand. This will make it easier to read and it will also make the area of focus smaller.

    Cheers,
    Duke John
    Last edited by Duke John; 11-28-2005 at 15:53.

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    nudge nudge, wink wink Member GrimSta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    wow! i must say im impressed by your ideas!!.....so for this we can expect all of the Nobles who took part in the wars of the roses and new models for them (kinda obvious that one :P)

    If you pull this off i will love you.....but im not that kinda englishman oh! heres an idea!!

    Remember in Age of Mythology there were some very good descriptions of the mythology of the factions (norse, greek, egyptian) taken from a book about it....you know, like gods worshipped hopw they worshipped them, stuff like that.....is it possible you could add that sort of stuff onto the book? (names of all nobles, political idealogies of the time, current wars, nations involved in giving aide and what really happened: Which nobles supplied who with what etc etc)
    "I'm right and everyone else is wrong or has taken too much LSD."

  20. #20
    Senior Member Senior Member Duke John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    Good idea! I have a limited number of pages at my disposal so I will have to see how much background stories I can put into the book. But yes, that is possible. Although it probably means that you cannot go instantly to a certain page unless it is displayed as a reaction to clicking on some UI element; like the shield.
    ... or I might add some kind of indexing UI element; you know those cloth strips that are used between two pages to remind you where you were?

    A bit of brainstorming:
    Heraldic shields outside of England: 2 pages showing background history of the country; for example France at war with Burgundy, the fight for independence of Scotland.
    Harbour: a bit of info about the Hanseatic League, the dangers of sea-faring.
    Family heraldry: Perhaps I can use part of the map to display the heraldry of the different heirs. A counter can notify which one is the current heir and wether he is crowned. Clicking on the shield will show the characteristics of the family member.

    Please give me more!
    Last edited by Duke John; 11-28-2005 at 17:41.

  21. #21
    nudge nudge, wink wink Member GrimSta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    ummm....familly heraldry for all the old english families not just the heirs....i know i wouldnt mind seeing mine
    "I'm right and everyone else is wrong or has taken too much LSD."

  22. #22

    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    There's a Henry VIII game somewhere online (downloadable) that uses just boxes to represent COURT - FRANCE - IRELAND - PARLIAMENT - NORTHERN ENGLAND, etc - and my old idea for a WotR game had bloody LAWYERS so if you want you could make it absolutely representational and dispense with a map completely. OR you could split the map into sections - one for armies and strategic movement, one for political maneuvering. Areas on the map would not represent counties but power bases for noble families (ie. all the Bonville or Devreaux or Welles holdings and possessing the 'territory' meant you have the allegiance of the character), lands covered by offices (ie. Warden of the Cinque Ports would be based at let's say Rye, but cover the entire SE English coast)

    Sieges would not reflect the strength of a castle but the loyalty of the people (minor nobility and gentry) to the ideology. Relgion (ie. political loyalty) would have a huge part to play so taking over a 'lancastrian' area would invite rebellion for a Yorkist lord no matter how strong a castle (and they weren't really the mighty fortresses of long ago but fortified manor houses = that's why Richard of York marched out of Sandal and fought at Wakefield rather than endure a siege). Only the Marcher fortresses would be that strong.

    Just some thoughts,
    Clare
    "Ad majoram Dei gloriam"

  23. #23

    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    I wish they kept the damn marriage thing though!

    Yes heraldry and family lines would be nice...

    And lucky you I got some new books on the wars (sigh) Battles in Britain and an Osprey or two.

    So this will all be scripted? I'll say it before and I'll say it again, if even half can be pulled off I'll pull the battered crown out of the thorn bush and crown you king.

    Clare
    "Ad majoram Dei gloriam"

  24. #24

    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke John
    The map
    The map will show England divided into the shires, plus the regions that are used when evading the country; Scotland, Ireland, France, Calais and Burgundy (the map texture is from Imperial Glory).

    Each shire will have a 3D shield icon sitting in the middle. Alongside the shield there may a 3D icon showing allegiance of the noble; either a white rose (Yorkist), a red rose (Lancastrian) or no rose (neutral). The shield is used for various interface issues such as movement, giving loyalty counters, setting the rendez-vous and displaying a page from the book.

    Since the map has a large open space in the right top corner I think I will place the book there on a book stand. This will make it easier to read and it will also make the area of focus smaller.

    Cheers,
    Duke John
    Neat map! I think that you'd probably just want to include the British isles and Northern France, Normandy to the Frisians including Paris.

    The box idea goes like this - it's a takeoff on the idea I had for the MTW WotR map using Europe for England. It's essentially monopoly squares like to get to London from Dover you pass from Dover to Canterbury to Blackheath to Southwark. Something like that.

    Clare
    "Ad majoram Dei gloriam"

  25. #25
    Member Member tutankamon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    great idea!! love to see how it progresses
    "…Birds of battle screech, the grey wolf howls, spears rattle, shield answers shaft. …Then many a thegn, laden in gold, buckled on his sword-belt. …The hollow shield called for bold men"s hands..."

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    Senior Member Senior Member Duke John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    I'm at the moment translating the concept into scripting codes. To aid that process I am making a Design Document. If enough people are interested then I could update this thread with my progress. You can get a clearer idea of what I am trying to achieve and, perhaps more interesting, how.

  27. #27
    Member Member tutankamon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    if you need any help with arkeological or historical data i would gladly help!!
    "…Birds of battle screech, the grey wolf howls, spears rattle, shield answers shaft. …Then many a thegn, laden in gold, buckled on his sword-belt. …The hollow shield called for bold men"s hands..."

  28. #28
    Senior Member Senior Member Duke John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    You can certainly help! I need the coat-of-arms of the nobles controlling the following shires around 1460:
    Durham
    Lincoln
    Cambridge
    Sussex
    Surrey
    Northampton
    Leicester
    Cumbria
    Hampshire
    Clwyd
    Gwynedd
    Powys
    Dyfed
    Hereford
    Bristol
    Exeter

    A link towards a image or description of the coat-of-arms will suffice.

    Thanks,
    Duke John
    Last edited by Duke John; 12-09-2005 at 12:14.

  29. #29
    Member Member tutankamon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    sure be right back..
    "…Birds of battle screech, the grey wolf howls, spears rattle, shield answers shaft. …Then many a thegn, laden in gold, buckled on his sword-belt. …The hollow shield called for bold men"s hands..."

  30. #30
    Senior Member Senior Member Duke John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conceptual design of a Wars of the Roses game

    I have streamlined the concept of counters a bit more. I hope to get screenshots soon enough to explain it a bit more, but if all goes well then it will be very easy to understand for the player. Each element on the strategic map will have one function and some functions use Power Counters to work while others simply require the presence of a certain amount of Loyalty or Popular Support Counters. You will read something about the coat-of-arms section of the strategic map. This is a column of all nobles and heirs with their own heraldic shield. Nobles have next to them their loyalty rating, while heirs have space for Power Counters and Popular Support Counters. Anyway, here is a piece of the Design Document:

    COUNTERS

    Power Counters
    These are placed under the heirs of a faction at the coat-of-arms section of the strategic map. The player can this way see how many he has left. They are placed at the beginning of the political phase and any unspent counters can be kept up to a certain maximum. The player can thus save for an all-out attack.

    The amount of Power Counters that a faction receives depends on the following:
    Total Popular Support Counters:
    1; -2
    2; -2
    3; -1
    4; -1
    7; +1
    8; +1
    9; +2
    10; +2
    Each Noble with a loyalty of 4; +1

    Loyalty Counters
    These are placed right next to the noble's Heraldic Shield on the Coat-of-arms section of the map. They represent the loyalty of a noble towards either the Lancastrians (red rose) or Yorkists (white rose). A noble can have up to 4 counters of one kind. If no counters are present then the noble is neutral. The amount of loyalty gives the following effects:
    4 LCs; 100% chance that the noble will raise troops, +1 Power Counter
    3 LCs; 100% chance that the noble will raise troops
    2 LCs; 80% chance that the noble will raise troops
    1 LC; 50% chance that the noble will raise troops, 10% chance per turn that the noble will chance sides.
    0 LCs; 5% chance per turn that the region rebels, 10% chance that it will randomly choose a side.

    The loyalty of a noble can be influenced the following way:
    Faction spends 3 Power Counters; +1
    Total Popular Support Counters:
    1; -2 per turn*
    2; -1 per turn*
    9; +1 per turn
    10; +2 per turn
    * Does not affect nobles with 3 or 4 loyalty counters.

    Popular Support Counters
    These are placed under the heirs of a faction at the coat-of-arms section of the strategic map. Kings and heirs need to be supported by population as without it they can hardly claim to be the rightful king of England. This idea is represented by Popular Support Counters. A faction can have at the most 10 counters.

    The amount of Popular Support Counters is influenced by the following:
    Killed king; +4
    Killed heir; +2
    Won major battle; +2
    Won minor battle; +1
    Rebellion surpressed; +1
    Every turn a rebellion is not surpressed; -1
    Evades country; -1
    Lost minor battle; -1
    Lost major battle; -2
    Lost heir; -2
    Lost king; -4

    SPENDING POWER COUNTERS
    The player can do the following things with Power Counters:
    Incite a revolt
    Cost: 5 PC
    Description: A very costly action but it might divert the opponent or even decrease his popular support if not removed. This action is only possible when the faction has evaded the country.
    Increase loyalty of nobles
    Cost: 3 PC
    Description: By clicking on a coat-of-arms the player increases the loyalty of a noble by one loyalty counter.
    Raise a noble's army
    Cost: 3 PCs
    Description: By clicking on a heraldic shield of a powerfull noble the player issues a command to the noble to raise an army. Only 3 noble controlled armies can be present per faction.
    Raise troops
    Cost: 2 PCs
    Description: By clicking on a heraldic shield of a lesser noble the player issues a command to the shire to raise troops. If the province becomes occupied by the opposing faction then the raised troops will disappear.
    Set rendez-vous
    Cost: 1 PCs
    Description: By clicking on the rendez-vous flag the player can set a new rendez-vous.


    I hope that you start to see the strategic possibilities that this system offers. Will you try to keep many nobles loyal or will you focus on a just a few very loyal? Losing a big battle will mean that you have lost control and the only way of regaining the throne might be evading the country and hire mercenaries.
    Of course it will be a big challenge to write a challenging AI for it, but that won't stop me from trying.

    Cheers,
    Duke John

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