Alternate history: the Anarchy of King Stephen.

[King Henry V]

Well historically the Welsh were very hard to catch in open battle, so I'll see what happens whe the writing spirit takes over...

[King Henry V]

Ok, the story continues:
Note: some people may find the following scenes disturbing
(Yes, I know you'll want to read it even more now!)
Departure for Wales

You awake next morning in the mayor of Exeter’s white stone mansion to find the storm has ceased and left behind a beautiful sunny spring morning. After being dressed by your servants, you go downstairs and eat a light breakfast of fresh fruit.
“My Lord King, it is time for mass,” one of your servants reminds you.
You ride to Exeter’s great sandstone cathedral, where your brother, Ypres, the barons, the burghers and many townspeople are all gathered for a Te Deum, in thanksgiving for the deliverance of Exeter from the hands of rebels and the victory of the King’s soldiers. Your brother even ascends to the pulpit and gives a sermon on how the Lord has put every man in his place and that to rise against one’s King is to commit a sin against the Almighty Himself. A great “Amen” sounds throughout the cathedral.
After mass, you proceed through the great oak doors and form a great assembly outside on the green. You sit on your throne on top of a makeshift dais, and pronounce your verdict on the fate of de Redvers and his men, who are kneeling down, there hands tied behind their backs. You glimpse de Redvers’ wife in the forefront of the crowd.
You rise from your chair and begin to speak
“Lords, ladies, citizens of Exeter! After much thought and deliberation, I have decided my verdict on these men here assembled.”
The crowd holds their breath.
“Baldwin de Redvers,” you say. “Through the power invested in me by God, I hereby find you guilty of murder, robbery, rape and treason against your lawful sovereign. As befits such evil crimes, you will be executed by hanging, drawing and quartering. All your lands, fiefs, holdings and castles are hereby the property of the Crown.”
Baldwin’s wife screams and falls to her knees, crying. The traitor only keeps an expression of arrogant contempt, as though any judgement made by you will have no effect on him.
“May the Lord have mercy on you soul,” you murmur under your breath.
As de Redvers wife is led away, cheers break out from the crowd. Justice has been done, they shout.
You then pardon the rebels, on condition that they swear an oath of absolute loyalty towards and agree to fight for you in your next campaign. You say that if you find their service satisfying, you will allow them be free. They all swear the oath.
After the assembly, another feast is given in your honour at the Guild Hall. After the endless courses of meat, fish, vegetables and many other foods, you rise from your seat and call for silence.
“My lord barons and burghers, grave news of repeated raids on the Welsh border compel me to travel there and raise an army to crush this impudent scoundrels. I will depart tomorrow morning for the Marcher Lands.
“I wish to thank the barons for answering my call and furnishing soldiers for my command for this campaign. However, I shall no longer be needing your support for the present time, and you may all return to your homes to watch the corn ripen. For the coming campaign, I will enlist the support of your neighbours to the North, who have not yet met their obligations towards as their suzerain. However, I may need your services again in the near future, either at home or abroad. Like the Devil, traitors and enemies are omnipresent. Once again, I thank all of you for your brave service.”
Afterwards, you summon the Abbot of a nearby monastery for a quiet talk.
“Father,” you say. “I shall grant your house a small sum so that you have the money to feed, clothe and house the worst victims of this rebellion. Will you and you monastery be willing to take on this necessary burden?”
“Noble King, it would be an honour,” the Abbot says.
He bows and walks away.
You inform the merchant who approached you yesterday that the funds captured will be returned to the much-wronged burghers of Exeter.
“May the Lord bless your majesty for all eternity,” he replies with a broad smile.
You then ask a servant if he has seen Lord de Rougehavre.
“My lord de Rougehavre is outside in the yard, your majesty” he informs you.
You go outside to the yard where you find de Rougehavre, his cloak fastened and his riding boots on, waiting for his groom to bring him his horse.
“Leaving so soon, my lord?” you enquire in a light-heated tone.
“Err, yes, err immediately. Business to be attended to at home,” he laughs falsely.
“But my lord, you haven’t even seen any battle,” you say.
“Yes, but I brought my men for your service and you have dismissed all the barons,” he says nervously.
“But, my lord, all the other barons fought. You, on the other hand, got err, lost, as you said yesterday.”
De Rougehavre looks uneasy. His face is pale, and he fidgets endlessly with this cloak.
“My Lord de Rougehavre,” you lean forward and lower your voice. “There is talk among the other lords and knights that you panicked at the last moment and got lost deliberately.”
Rougehavre’s expression changes to outrage.
“I know these are most horrible lies,” you say, “but nonetheless, it would be foolish to ignore them, at the risk of making other people believe these falsities.”
“Yes, but-.”
“My Lord de Rougehavre, what say you to accompanying me with your men on my forthcoming campaign against the Welsh? It would give you a chance to prove these malicious slanders are false and there is much booty and land to be won. And you horsemen would be most invaluable against this band of bandits. I give you my word that I shall release in time for the harvest. So, what say you?”
He gulps. “My liege, it would be an honour.”
You smile. “Excellent. Do you wish my servants to help you unpack?”
De Rougehavre mutters a grudging thanks and you turn away, pleased with yourself that you handled that situation ably. You are not entirely sure of his loyalty and besides; you need his eighty or so cavalry in the coming campaign.
A servant approaches you and informs you that it is time for the execution of de Redvers.

A great crowd is yet again assembled to watch the execution of their former lord. This time, however, the event will take place before the castle, which now formally belongs to you, as does much of the Isle of Wight and the vital castle at Carisbrooke.
A rickety wooden scaffold has been erected on the green, and you have taken your seat on top of the battlements that had been the scene of carnage only the day before. As you sit down in your seat, the crowd beneath gives a great cheer. However, this soon turns to booing as the castle gates are opened and Baldwin is led out, dragged through the mud by a pair of horses, feet first. Stones and a whole manner of filth are pelted at the rebel, along with curses and insults.
Baldwin reaches the scaffold, his feet are unbound and he is led up the stairs to the platform. When he reaches the top, a noose is tied round his neck and he is lifted into the air, hanging. His body jerks and twitches in the air. He is dancing the hangman’s jig. Just as his body begins to calm, he is cut down at the rope is loosened. De Redvers gulps for air.
He is then placed on a large wooden table and his limbs are tied to four posts and each end. The executioner cuts open Baldwin’s jerking, takes a huge knife, and carves his chest open. You cringe as de Redvers’ deafening cries sound. But you must force yourself to watch. Not to do so would be to invite scorn that the King himself is not happy with his own justice.
The executioner takes a smaller knife and cuts away the traitor’s intestines, which he removes and places on a burning fire. Baldwin’s screams have turned to piteous whimpers of pain. You can see the life draining out of him as his genitals are cleaved off and finally, his feebly beating heart is removed. His agony is at an end. However, the executioner’s task is not yet completed and with an axe he severs the still limbs and ultimately, the head.
As the masked executioner wraps up his macabre equipment, many of the crowd push forward to dip rags and handkerchiefs in the pools of the traitor’s blood to take as keepsakes. The limbs and the head are wrapped up individually in cloth and are left to you for you to distribute them throughout the land as a grim reminder of the fate of those who rebel against their monarch. You decide to leave an arm here in Exeter, where he committed his foul deeds and send the other arm to London, a leg to Dover and a leg to York. The head you order to be impaled on a lance and it will serve as a gruesome banner when you ride through Robert of Gloucester’s lands, and finally into Wales.

You leave early next morning, escorted only by your small retinue of servants, the survivors of your bodyguard, your brother Henry and Lord de Rougehavre with his men. The pardoned rebels who have sworn their oath of personal allegiance you will follow you later, accompanied by fifty men from Exeter who have enlisted in your service. They will meet you in Monmouth, which will be your main base for the duration of the campaign and the assembly point for the barons and their vassals of the region.
You had bid farewell to William of Ypres the day before and given him orders to sail for Normandy with all the Flemish mercenaries who had fought in the crushing of de Redvers’ rebellion. He is to act as your representative in France until you are ready to deal with the Angevins personally, and you have given him money for the hiring of more mercenaries should he need them and orders to the Norman barons that they must obey his orders, or face the full might of your fury. After the fate of Baldwin, you are fairly certain that they will comply.
Your journey through Somerset is brisk as you party is entirely mounted and you arrive in Taunton by noon on the next day. You then ride across the marshes of Somerset, until reaching the great port city of Bristol, stronghold of Robert of Gloucester. Your reception here is colder, more hostile, reflecting their lord’s attitude towards you. They stare in silence at the rotting head of Baldwin de Redvers and cross themselves.
From Bristol you take ship down the Avon and climb up the Severn Estuary until you reach the mouth of the river Wye and ride the final twenty miles to Monmouth. You reach the town about a week after setting off from Exeter.
The small border town is full of camp followers, soldiers, knights and barons from the counties of Worcester, Hereford, Gloucester and also the Welsh Marshes. Also present are the many civilians who have fled the ravaged borders to seek refuge in the city.
Ever since conquest of England by your grandfather William the Bastard and the subsequent advance into Southern Wales, this area has been a hotspot of skirmishes and raids. King William tried to deal with the problem by entrusting local power to lords such as Robert of Montgomery, giving them a great deal of independence to deal with the wild Welsh, and these lords thus rely little on your word or command. Furthermore, two of your predecessors, King William II and King Henry, both had little personal success on the Marches, leaving behind an unsatisfactory situation.


A council of war is held in the Great Hall of Monmouth Castle. Robert Beaumont, Earl of Leicester is present, as is Gilbert of Clare. Robert of Gloucester is absent, apparently sick with the flux. One of the Marcher barons gives a report on the state of affairs: the Welsh harass the border, burning castles and villages, stealing cattle and sheep, slaughtering civilians and ravaging the land. Their raids reach deeper into your realm, growing bolder and larger in size. Efforts to retaliate against the Welsh have proved useless. They come, they burn, and they leave. He also informs you of your troop numbers: five hundred spearmen, one hundred and fifty men-at-arms, one hundred and twenty archers and a hundred knights. You ask for the barons for their opinions and the course of action to be taken.
Robert of Leicester speaks. “My liege, these savages have no knowledge of the art of siege warfare. If we build more forts and castles along the frontier we will build an impenetrable wall. Properly garrisoned, any hint of incursion will be detected and properly repulsed.”
“I disagree,” says Gilbert of Clare. “The Welsh are cunning and wily. They can quite easily slip through any barrier. These castles and forts will be useless. Instead I propose that we emulate the Welsh. We should split up our forces into small, mobile bands that can catch these slippery eels. Our men are better armed, better trained and better disciplined than these bandits. The Welsh will quail before our real soldiers.”
The lord who summed up the current situation, Lord Roger Fitzwilliam, rises and speaks. “My lord, the Welsh are currently moving from their winter lands into their summer ones. The crops are still in the fields, and their food is growing short. Furthermore, if we capture the Welsh stronghold at Dinas Bran, the local Welsh chieftains will be forced to bow down and swear fealty to you. If we advance up the Wye valley, we can burn the lands and crops of the Welsh, starving them and it will ultimately force them to surrender. The fortress of Dinas Bran will also serve as an excellent strongpoint to subdue these rebellious savages.”
A baron from Gloucester gives his opinion. “Your majesty, the cost of a major campaign in Wales and even the construction of castles and forts will be very costly to the royal coffers. Perhaps if we give the Welsh some gold they will make peace, for a while at least, leaving your majesty to deal with more pressing matters elsewhere.”
The fate of the Welsh Marches resides in your hands.

A The strategy for the Welsh campaign:
1.Build a string of fortifications to seal off the Marches from Welsh incursions.
2.Split your army into small, mobile troops to respond to the guerrilla tactics of the Welsh.
3. Advance into the heart of Wales, burning the land and capturing the castle of Dinas Bran, in an effort to bring the Welsh to terms
4. Pay the Welsh money for peace, so that you may attend for more urgent matters, such as in Scotland or Normandy.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
4 ―

GAH! Wrong option, I meant 3: Attack, burn, pillage, loot, hang, cut!...
.

[Kraxis]

I was inclined to go with 2, but given that we do not know how strong these incursions have been, but do know that they have been getting stronger (thus can't be very small), I think it would be risky... It seems 3 is the only viable option since both 1 and 4 cost more money than we have currently, and it is rightly accessed that castles and forts will have little impact, also they take some time to build.

With 3 we might force the Welsh to defend themselves, a fight we are bound to win due to superior training and equipment. Also, this way we can gain some needed funds from looting (and foraging will help keep costs down). Lastly when/if the Welsh give in they might be suitably inclined to grant you some light infantry and good archers.
The only problem this has is that they might just evade us and make up for their losses by raiding, or they might attempt an ambush, which could be dangerous if they have suitable numbers.

[King Kurt]

I think 3 - to bring the Welsh to battle. We must be aware of the chance of ambush, so keep the army close and well prepared. I would be tempted to level Dinas Bran and then withdraw back to England. With no crops they must attack us or increase their raiding - making it easier to catch them. If that doesn't work, perhaps an attractive herd of sheep could be used as a lure

[Duke Malcolm]

3, most certainly 3

[King Henry V]

Oh well, the Welsh members have lost there chance to prevent the ravaging of their country.

[King Kurt]

Oh well, the Welsh members have lost there chance to prevent the ravaging of their country.

Obviously a new flock in town

[Kraxis]

Hmmm... this seems like a case of a battle where the Welsh didn't turn up to defend their homes. "Huh, was that today?"

[Strike For The South]

Oh well, the Welsh members have lost there chance to prevent the ravaging of their country.

you will pay

[AntiochusIII]

The choice is decided, what value do my words carry?

A Medieval world requires a Medieval ways of war: 3, with the majority I go.

With love or fear, you have to choose how your reputation is made. And fear is always safer. How do you inspire fear? Simple...

Nice story, King Henry.

[Randarkmaan]

We must show the Welsh our strenght, paying them off would only convince them that we are cowards and they would soon attack again. It is time to be as ruthless as they are, kill the savages, show them no mercy!
...God wills it!(just had to...)


...option no.3

[King Henry V]

The great hall is silent. All the barons wait upon your decision. You rise from your seat. You address the council.
“My lords, the time has come for action to be taken against the Welsh. Their incessant raiding has brought great destruction and death upon the realm and I will no longer allow such acts to continue. To this aim I shall take command of an army, and march on the Welsh stronghold of Dinas Bran. I will wreak the Almighty’s vengeance on these savages and teach them a lesson that they will never forget. For centuries to come, they will remember never to enter the kingdom of England.”
Cheers erupt. A campaign into the heart of enemy territory will gain much in the way of booty and the thirst for retribution of the Marcher lords will be slaked.
On the morrow, the usual preparation for a campaign is made. Bread is baked, blades are sharpened, arrows are made and even more men are called up. All told, you have an army of about fourteen hundred men to lead into Wales, including de Redvers former soldiers and a troop of soldiers formed and equipped by the citizens of Exeter. Though it is not a great army, it should be enough for a brief foray into Wales.
However, there are still certain issues be resolved.
Firstly, there is the question of supply. The Marcher Lords favour that the army lives off the land and takes any food that it will find. The harvest is still in the fields and you may find enough food there to sustain your forces. This will reduce the cost of the expedition and make supplies easier.
However, Robert Beaumont, Earl of Leicester, prefers the army to be supplied from your cities such as Monmouth, Hereford and Shrewsbury, as well the many forts and castles which line the border. Enough food should be guaranteed, but the Treasury will have to spend more money for the supplies.
Secondly, the route that your army will take is still undecided. There are two possible roads for an army to march to Dinas Bran:
Advance up the Wye valley. This river that flows through Monmouth and Hereford, has its source high in the Welsh mountains. However, most of its course is a fairly gentle ascent up its broad valley. However, it is quite a long journey, giving the Welsh more time to prepare.
March up the Usk valley. This river also has its source in the Black mountains, but the valley is much narrower and its slope steeper. However, it a much shorter march from the last outposts of your kingdom to Dinas Bran and could catch the Welsh off their guard.

[Duke Malcolm]

The former for supply -- forage from the damned Welsh.
The latter for route -- take the damned Welsh off guard.

[DemonArchangel]

If you except to live off of the land, the Welsh could just use scorched earth tactics on you and starve you. Bring supplies.

Do the slow ascent. Someone named Manuel once marched through a narrow pass to save time. Something called Myriokephalon happened.

[Lord Winter]

Supplies 1 we need to move fast and supplies trains would slow us down, leaving us open to hit and run attacks from the welsh. Plus the supplies would probly be lost in a couple raids.

Rout 1 The other is too risky if we are caught in an ambush

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
The Welsh can't really do much scorched earth since they need the harvest themselves more than us. So, we should use the local supplies, which will have the side effect of being able to starve the enemy on their soil. Take what we need and destroy the rest.

Take the longer route. We will be vulnerable to enemy ambuscade in their land already.
.

[Mouzafphaerre]

The former for supply -- forage from the damned Welsh.
The latter for route -- take the damned Welsh off guard.

.
Don't believe him, he's a Welsh spy!


.

[Just A Girl]

GAH!

You could have waited for me,
Ive been busy

:(

You should have
1.Build a string of fortifications to seal off the Marches from Welsh incursions.

Now your burning and pilaging.

GAH!!!

"wheres my pot of Woad and my Short bow"


Trying to stay Neutrall now.

Personally I would Not Risk supplys.
The troops may get Restless not knowing If they will eat properly Once in to wales,
There should Always be A supply of food available. If there is food in the feilds Then by all means Eat that as well,

But Not seting up a supply rout becous Your Think you can get food when you arive. Is not worth the risk.

And id go the longer way round,

Its likley that a welsh scout May spot us traveling up The steeper slopes In the valley and I dont Relish the idea of being Down hill to a lot of welsh gurillas Who have Short bows,
And also be unable to flank them

[Lord Winter]

yes but it is a bigger blow to moral if the supply trains are destroyed. Which i dont doubt the french could do while we have to drag supplies up passes crossing rivers and what not. plus we have added mobility without them. So it all balances out.
Edit: I hate leaving supplys behind but we cant afford them now

[Mr White]

What a wise council

Now for my opinion:
The supply question is a hard one. Leaving without food and such into relative unknown territory is always risky. On the other hand, as some said, the supply train will slow the expidition down to much. A third option is to go ahead and let the supplies catch up with the main force when they prepare for the battle. Allthough a valid compromise ( not in the least for the treasury) it would, in my opinion, take to many men to guard and escort it.

On the question about which rout to take, I'm in favor of the long safe rout. We will venture in relative unknown lands. The Welch, who knows the area well and uses guerilla like warfare, will be eager to ambush the English.

[King Kurt]

Supplies - live off the land - should be plenty of sheep around, the welsh will not kill those, they are like family. Also relatively this is not a long distance to go - this is Welsh Wales, not the sahara we are crossing.

Route - has to be the long safe way - we want them to know we are coming, because we want them to come and fight.

[King Henry V]

To march up the Wye would take about another one to two days march, as there is also a plateau to cross between Dinas Bran and the river.

[Ludens]

Taking no supplies only works when you catch the Welsh by surprise, else they will destroy the crops and take away their flocks. Similarly taking the fast route but being lumbered down with supplies won't work either.

Since Wales is ideal for guerrilla tactics, I would want to spend as little times as possible there. The question is: can we take Dinas Bran in a short span of time? If a siege is likely, I would go well supplied and by the long route. If it is not: take the short route and minimal supplies.

Great idea, King Henry V!

[King Henry V]

Dinas Bran is situated high on a hill. It is made of stone, though the last reports said there were not in a good state of repair. However, this might not be the case if the Welsh have time to refortify it again.

[King Henry V]

I just want to let you all know that my Welsh history is quite poor, so please excuse me if I make any mistakes. The same goes for my knowledge of 12th century banners and coat of arms, so I will probably make mistakes about the devices of King Stephen and the barons. However, if anyone knows anything about either points, please don't hesitate to post.

[Just A Girl]

Dont worry
Il forgive you if you make mistakes :)


But remember That the welsh Defeted the english and vanquished them to the sea and lived happily ever after :D "honest Guv.. "
(worth a try)

[King Kurt]

But remember That the welsh Defeted the english and vanquished them to the sea and lived happily ever after :D "honest Guv.. "
(worth a try)

I thought the only time that happened was at Twickenham and the Arms Park in the 1970's. Also I only remember the defeats, not the happy ever after!!

[Ludens]

Dinas Bran is situated high on a hill. It is made of stone, though the last reports said there were not in a good state of repair. However, this might not be the case if the Welsh have time to refortify it again.

Thank you.

Well, since the decision to attack has already been made, I opt for a quick advance without supplies through the fast route. Time is not on our side here, so lets not waste it.

Not that my vote make a difference, anyway .

[Just A Girl]

Thank you.

Well, since the decision to attack has already been made, I opt for a quick advance without supplies through the fast route. Time is not on our side here, so lets not waste it.

Not that my vote make a difference, anyway .

Lol none of mine have yet either,
But its fun to voice your oppinion,