The history of Homosexuality

[hellenes]

As Hellenes despretaly tries to prove - and nobody pais attention to his quotes and sources - homosexuality was not legit nor socially accepted and most certainly not "the norm" in ancient Greece. The Spartan thing is a common misconception, although the Sacred Band probably isn't (but we are talking about 300 people here). And of course exclusive homosexuality was for the greater part unknown in the Greek world.

The ancient Greeks were much more tolerant to "sexual misdemeanor" than our society (blame it on the Christian morals) but they faced bisexual males as "kinda weird" and the whole male love was considered a vice of the upper classes, not something a good Athenian (or Spartan, or Theban or whatever) would engage self into. Of course there is the other side: the laws against homosexuality were rarely if ever enforced - the only cases we know of men being condemned for having sexual affairs with other men had to do with male prostitution (in the broader sence, to change sexual partners really often was considered also "prostitution" in a way).

But you can read Aristophanes, for instance, as he is very much the "voice of the common citizen of Athens" in the early 4th century: he lashes out against male lovers all too often and calls them with extremely derogatory terms (lakkoproktos, lakkos, kinaidos etc.).

One more thing: homosexuality as a man having affairs only with men, was very, very, VERY weird for the ancient Greek world and was really frowned upon and condemned heavily. Having sex with men too I(in addition to women) was not so "bad", but still not accepteptable or the norm, just a privilege of the elites.

I dont find it strange since there is this vage presumption that "The Greeks are nationalists so they try to make themselves look good, and even trying to annex the aliens called Makedonians that had no separate language, art, culture..."

Hellenes

[Kraxis]

Don't go there, this is a thread about the history of homosexuality not if Macedonia was/is Greek.

[Red Harvest]

Don't go there, this is a thread about the history of homosexuality not if Macedonia was/is Greek.

Same old themes reappear, no matter the topic.

[conon394]

Rosacrux redux

Citing Aristophanes should only be done with caution, he leveled the same vitriol, sarcasm and ruthless humor at just about everything and everyone in Athens…

I would be especially cautious about suggesting Aristophanes can in any particular passage be suggested to represent the average Athenian, or even Aristophanes’ own views. He was a friend of Socrates, yet depicted his as the worst sort of amoral sophist. The same politicians he castigates with various sexual slanders he also tars with the moniker or tradesmen. Now I grant working for a living might well have been just as odious as homosexuality to the aristocratic class, but I doubt the mass of Athenian workers of the lower class would agree.

hellenes

If you’re going to cite Xenophon’s Constitution of the Lacedaimonians you really should be fair and note that Xenophon is also pointed (in the context of your quote) mentioning that Sparta has fallen away from it’s (supposed) lofty idealism ideals as to the ‘platonic’ nature of it’s male-male relations. It is also worth pointing out that both the preceding and following passages note there are other Greek states where men live together live husband and wife or do not proscribe any legal ban on sexual relations between males.

Rather than cherry pick evidence in a rather vain attempt to define some standard morality of homosexuality for all ancient Greeks, why not just be content with Plato’s construction: Some Greek States banned it, some Allowed (or encouraged it) and in some the situation was ambiguous..

[LeftEyeNine]

Rosacrux redux

Citing Aristophanes should only be done with caution, he leveled the same vitriol, sarcasm and ruthless humor at just about everything and everyone in Athens…

I would be especially cautious about suggesting Aristophanes can in any particular passage be suggested to represent the average Athenian, or even Aristophanes’ own views. He was a friend of Socrates, yet depicted his as the worst sort of amoral sophist. The same politicians he castigates with various sexual slanders he also tars with the moniker or tradesmen. Now I grant working for a living might well have been just as odious as homosexuality to the aristocratic class, but I doubt the mass of Athenian workers of the lower class would agree.

hellenes

If you’re going to cite Xenophon’s Constitution of the Lacedaimonians you really should be fair and note that Xenophon is also pointed (in the context of your quote) mentioning that Sparta has fallen away from it’s (supposed) lofty idealism ideals as to the ‘platonic’ nature of it’s male-male relations. It is also worth pointing out that both the preceding and following passages note there are other Greek states where men live together live husband and wife or do not proscribe any legal ban on sexual relations between males.

Rather than cherry pick evidence in a rather vain attempt to define some standard morality of homosexuality for all ancient Greeks, why not just be content with Plato’s construction: Some Greek States banned it, some Allowed (or encouraged it) and in some the situation was ambiguous..

I'll try a better sum up this time : Greeks were not bothered much with homosexuality, or at least they used to react more comfortable or neutral against it than any others cultures did, if they are not obviously inventors of homosexuality ?

P.S. I am aware that homosexuality can not be tracked whole throughout the history, I'm just trying to make a "particular" point.

[Rosacrux redux]

I'll try a better sum up this time : Greeks were not bothered much with homosexuality, or at least they used to react more comfortable or neutral against it than any others cultures did, if they are not obviously inventors of homosexuality ?

Hardly "inventors" of homosexuality, it has been around for as long as human beings are around. Animals are, in extreme cases, also behave in the same way.

Conon

Aristophanes does not slander anyone and everyone, he slanders those he considers worth for slander and in particular he aims at those who'd please his audience to hear about.

But that's not the point, is it? The point is that Aristophanes has used remarks fit for homosexuality (lakkoproktos, lakkos) to slander people. If homosexuality was a norm or a social "Do", would he do so? AFAIK, you use a term as derigatory when it actually applies that way.

[LeftEyeNine]

Hardly "inventors" of homosexuality, it has been around for as long as human beings are around. Animals are, in extreme cases, also behave in the same way.

P.S. I am aware that homosexuality can not be tracked whole throughout the history, I'm just trying to make a "particular" point.

[Mouzafphaerre]

Hardly "inventors" of homosexuality, it has been around for as long as human beings are around. Animals are, in extreme cases, also behave in the same way.

Conon

Aristophanes does not slander anyone and everyone, he slanders those he considers worth for slander and in particular he aims at those who'd please his audience to hear about.

But that's not the point, is it? The point is that Aristophanes has used remarks fit for homosexuality (lakkoproktos, lakkos) to slander people. If homosexuality was a norm or a social "Do", would he do so? AFAIK, you use a term as derigatory when it actually applies that way.

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This [quoted] one is the 1,000,000th ORG post!
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[Rosacrux redux]

I would agree. Bringing the Macedonian issue here is rather counterproductive. Let's stick to the actual matter in hand.

[hellenes]

I would agree. Bringing the Macedonian issue here is rather counterproductive. Let's stick to the actual matter in hand.

I didnt try to bring it here its just a deja vous...
Well I 100% understand that it doesnt belong here it was just a side note to the whole two dimensional Greece-Rest of the Planet universe of historical facts...

Hellenes