The history of Homosexuality

**Kraxis** · 12-05-2005, 15:43

Don't go there, this is a thread about the history of homosexuality not if Macedonia was/is Greek.

**Red Harvest** · 12-06-2005, 03:05

Originally Posted by Kraxis

Don't go there, this is a thread about the history of homosexuality not if Macedonia was/is Greek.

Same old themes reappear, no matter the topic.

**conon394** · 12-06-2005, 08:32

Rosacrux redux

Citing Aristophanes should only be done with caution, he leveled the same vitriol, sarcasm and ruthless humor at just about everything and everyone in Athens…

I would be especially cautious about suggesting Aristophanes can in any particular passage be suggested to represent the average Athenian, or even Aristophanes’ own views. He was a friend of Socrates, yet depicted his as the worst sort of amoral sophist. The same politicians he castigates with various sexual slanders he also tars with the moniker or tradesmen. Now I grant working for a living might well have been just as odious as homosexuality to the aristocratic class, but I doubt the mass of Athenian workers of the lower class would agree.

hellenes

If you’re going to cite Xenophon’s Constitution of the Lacedaimonians you really should be fair and note that Xenophon is also pointed (in the context of your quote) mentioning that Sparta has fallen away from it’s (supposed) lofty idealism ideals as to the ‘platonic’ nature of it’s male-male relations. It is also worth pointing out that both the preceding and following passages note there are other Greek states where men live together live husband and wife or do not proscribe any legal ban on sexual relations between males.

Rather than cherry pick evidence in a rather vain attempt to define some standard morality of homosexuality for all ancient Greeks, why not just be content with Plato’s construction: Some Greek States banned it, some Allowed (or encouraged it) and in some the situation was ambiguous..

**LeftEyeNine** · 12-06-2005, 15:49

Originally Posted by conon394

Rosacrux redux

Citing Aristophanes should only be done with caution, he leveled the same vitriol, sarcasm and ruthless humor at just about everything and everyone in Athens…

I would be especially cautious about suggesting Aristophanes can in any particular passage be suggested to represent the average Athenian, or even Aristophanes’ own views. He was a friend of Socrates, yet depicted his as the worst sort of amoral sophist. The same politicians he castigates with various sexual slanders he also tars with the moniker or tradesmen. Now I grant working for a living might well have been just as odious as homosexuality to the aristocratic class, but I doubt the mass of Athenian workers of the lower class would agree.

hellenes

If you’re going to cite Xenophon’s Constitution of the Lacedaimonians you really should be fair and note that Xenophon is also pointed (in the context of your quote) mentioning that Sparta has fallen away from it’s (supposed) lofty idealism ideals as to the ‘platonic’ nature of it’s male-male relations. It is also worth pointing out that both the preceding and following passages note there are other Greek states where men live together live husband and wife or do not proscribe any legal ban on sexual relations between males.

Rather than cherry pick evidence in a rather vain attempt to define some standard morality of homosexuality for all ancient Greeks, why not just be content with Plato’s construction: Some Greek States banned it, some Allowed (or encouraged it) and in some the situation was ambiguous..

I'll try a better sum up this time : Greeks were not bothered much with homosexuality, or at least they used to react more comfortable or neutral against it than any others cultures did, if they are not obviously inventors of homosexuality ?

P.S. I am aware that homosexuality can not be tracked whole throughout the history, I'm just trying to make a "particular" point.

**Rosacrux redux** · 12-06-2005, 16:38

Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

I'll try a better sum up this time : Greeks were not bothered much with homosexuality, or at least they used to react more comfortable or neutral against it than any others cultures did, if they are not obviously inventors of homosexuality ?

Hardly "inventors" of homosexuality, it has been around for as long as human beings are around. Animals are, in extreme cases, also behave in the same way.

Conon

Aristophanes does not slander anyone and everyone, he slanders those he considers worth for slander and in particular he aims at those who'd please his audience to hear about.

But that's not the point, is it? The point is that Aristophanes has used remarks fit for homosexuality (lakkoproktos, lakkos) to slander people. If homosexuality was a norm or a social "Do", would he do so? AFAIK, you use a term as derigatory when it actually applies that way.

**LeftEyeNine** · 12-06-2005, 18:50

Hardly "inventors" of homosexuality, it has been around for as long as human beings are around. Animals are, in extreme cases, also behave in the same way.

P.S. I am aware that homosexuality can not be tracked whole throughout the history, I'm just trying to make a "particular" point.

**Rosacrux redux** · 12-06-2005, 19:27

Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

Aye!

Sorry to put down your cheer but :

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=57757

Damn!

**Mouzafphaerre** · 12-06-2005, 18:59

Originally Posted by Rosacrux redux

Hardly "inventors" of homosexuality, it has been around for as long as human beings are around. Animals are, in extreme cases, also behave in the same way.

Conon

Aristophanes does not slander anyone and everyone, he slanders those he considers worth for slander and in particular he aims at those who'd please his audience to hear about.

But that's not the point, is it? The point is that Aristophanes has used remarks fit for homosexuality (lakkoproktos, lakkos) to slander people. If homosexuality was a norm or a social "Do", would he do so? AFAIK, you use a term as derigatory when it actually applies that way.

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This [quoted] one is the 1,000,000th ORG post!

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