Death Row, Van Nguyen

[Shadow]

I think Singapore doesn't execute the buyers, but I still think the punishment on the seller is excessive.

Yes, most people think that the punishment is excessive but only with such a way can we send the message over to those traffickers that we really mean business.

Singapore is a wealthy city with low taxes too. Afghanistan under the Taliban comes to mind.

Japan and South Korea doesn't execute the people who distribute drugs, and very few of their citizens take drugs.

I agree that our laws are harsh but by comparing it to the Taliban reigme is way overboard as I believe most of our laws are similar to britain except the death penalty and chewing gum ban etc. And because of our laws I can walk home in the middle of the night without fear of being mug or anything.

I don't think Japan is that drug free as for Korea I am not too sure but one think is certain they are no where near the Golden Triangle.

I think Singapores society is messed up if it values life so little. Maybe drugs would do you some good.

We value life more then anything that's why we have such harsh punishment on drug traffickers.

[Efrem]

you don't show value for life by killing people over something so small as drugs. That is holding the value of life too low. A human life is more importtant than some drugs.

[Geoffrey S]

While I disagree with the death penalty in principal and find it completely disproportionate to the crime in this case it's hardly as if Van Nguyen didn't know what he was getting into; he attempted to smuggle drugs into a country with strict drug controls where he could expect an execution if he were caught, and that's exactly what he got. A remarkably elaborate way of committing suicide, really.

As for the punishment itself as related to the crime it was applied to, thoroughly barbaric.

[Shaka_Khan]

...I agree that our laws are harsh but by comparing it to the Taliban reigme is way overboard as I believe most of our laws are similar to britain except the death penalty and chewing gum ban etc. And because of our laws I can walk home in the middle of the night without fear of being mug or anything...

Sorry I didn't mean it that way. I didn't mean that Singapore's laws were like the Taliban regime. I was trying to say that there are other countries with laws that are worse than Singapore. I put the order of the sentences wrong.
I've been to Singapore and I felt safe there; but I don't think drug addicts will mug anyone just because they're high.

[Shadow]

you don't show value for life by killing people over something so small as drugs. That is holding the value of life too low. A human life is more importtant than some drugs.

What do you mean small, drugs destory thousands of lives and that is not a small matter and like you said human life is more important then drugs so by giving such a harsh punishment people will learn not to risk their life for drugs by trying to use Singapore as a transit point.

but I don't think drug addicts will mug anyone just because they're high (unless they're really high).

Hahaha so it's all a misunderstanding, no problem I don't mean getting mugged by addicts but more of not getting rob or hurt by some street gang.

[Viking]

Someone has to die, it be the drugtaker or seller. No big deal.

He might not have killed some directly, be he could certainly have done it indirectly.

[yesdachi]

you don't show value for life by killing people over something so small as drugs. That is holding the value of life too low. A human life is more importtant than some drugs.

Not directly focused at you Efrem but this BS liberal attitude is more destructive than a nuclear bomb! Nruyen is a piece of crap drug trafficker who was stupid enough to break a law that he knew had a death penalty punishment. He should be burned on a steak with a big sign next to it that says, “Drug traffickers stay the hell out!”

Human life is valuable, that’s why it needs to be protected from the evils that are out there. Do you invite the wolf that just ate all your chickens into your house and give it a hug and tell it not to do it again? NO, you shoot the mother f’er and save your family from having their faces chewed off. Singapore’s laws are harsh but I’ll bet they wont have as much drug trafficking problems in the future. The despicable part is that Nguyen and others like him and worse break laws that force the good people of the world to follow thru with punishments that shouldn’t have to be used. Screw them, IMO they deserve the punishments they get.

The death penalty is bad, war against terrorists is wrong, drugs are ok, we shouldn’t say merry Christmas, wal-mart is the devil, suicide bombers just want an escape from the pain, and gay marriage is ok! I feel like I just woke up in the twilight zone. Stick a fork in me… I’m done!

[Kanamori]

Human life is valuable, that’s why it needs to be protected from the evils that are out there.

In trafficking drugs, he did not harm another human. His actions may have enabled people to harm themselves, but he is not the force killing someone who OD's. Since he is not directly the force killing them, the action the government did to him is disproportionate, and greater, to the action he did to society.

[Shaka_Khan]

...I don't think Japan is that drug free as for Korea I am not too sure but one think is certain they are no where near the Golden Triangle...

Korea and Japan has one of the lowest execution rates in the world, partly because they have very low crime rates. So I'm sure there are ways to prevent crime without the execution.

[Soulforged]

Someone has to die, it be the drugtaker or seller. No big deal.

No one has to die, ever, that kind of logic is contradictory with the premise of no more deaths. That only shows a disvalour for life.

He might not have killed some directly, be he could certainly have done it indirectly.

That doesn't matter. That way I could blame his father for having him, it's not an apropiate cause. Drugs don't kill more than tabaco or alcohol, many do it less than the last. This kind of aproach is barbaric and authoritarian there's no other name to it. What amuses me the most is that kind of hypotetical thinking "he might this, he might that", law cares about reality not what may happen.

[yesdachi]

In trafficking drugs, he did not harm another human. His actions may have enabled people to harm themselves, but he is not the force killing someone who OD's. Since he is not directly the force killing them, the action the government did to him is disproportionate, and greater, to the action he did to society.

Oh, I admit that the penalty is harsh but it is what it is. People could lobby to have it changed (I love my democracy but Singapore is a different ball game) but for now it is what it is and IMO it is harsh but just. Someone doesn’t need to kill to be worthy of the death penalty, they just need to be an evil. With the situation in Singapore it is just like seeing a giant sign on an electric wire that says “Danger you will die if you touch this wire” then having someone touch it and complain that they are dead. Don’t touch the wire, don’t traffic drugs, and don’t force good people to enforce deadly punishments.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

The world has a population problem, get over it.

[BDC]

So killing a couple of dozen people a year changes that?

[Viking]

No one has to die, ever, that kind of logic is contradictory with the premise of no more deaths. That only shows a disvalour for life.

No. He gives drugs to a drug taker that could die of it, or he get caught and killed; someone usually dies; this time the seller.

Drugs don't kill more than tabaco or alcohol, many do it less than the last.

Erm, that doesn`t matter at all if it is the case; the kill ratio is what counts. Do not come here and tell me that drinking alcohol or smoking tobaco is just as dangerous as taking drugs. The drug seller either kills people, or ruins their life, hence this death penalty.

[Shadow]

Korea and Japan has one of the lowest execution rates in the world, partly because they have very low crime rates. So I'm sure there are ways to prevent crime without the execution.

We only have death punishment for serious crime like murder, kinapping and drug trafficing. For the other crimes they are punished by caning, jail terms and fine so i don't think our low crime rate is largely due to execution.

the action the government did to him is disproportionate, and greater, to the action he did to society.

I have to disagree here because i feel that the crime he comitted will do more harm to the society then what we do to him. His action will destory lives of thousands and we punished him for it. I know that you may think that we could just jail him or something, there is no need to kill but that is the law of my country and by comitting an offence on our soil he is subjected to our law.

[Soulforged]

No. He gives drugs to a drug taker that could die of it, or he get caught and killed; someone usually dies; this time the seller.

You still don't understand it. First not always drugs kill, actually you can't die from abuse of marihuana. Second that doesn't matter for a penal case, but if you go to the moment when the police finds about him, not always he'll end death, but even then how is that this justifies capital punishment...It really escapes all logic.

Erm, that doesn`t matter at all if it is the case; the kill ratio is what counts. Do not come here and tell me that drinking alcohol or smoking tobaco is just as dangerous as taking drugs. The drug seller either kills people, or ruins their life, hence this death penalty.

I see that many people have problems to separate matters and treat them logically. The crime of the drug seller is to just sell the drug, not to kill, those are two separete actions, to separate moments that have two different disvalues. And you're right kill ratio doesn't matter, because all of this should be legal, wheter it's heroin or marihuana, in fact as said previously it's, but the problem is that people tend to forget that the Constitution is the primary law, above all others, of course I don't know what the Constitution of Singapore states, but if it suprimes individual freedoms, then excuse me but I'll stay here thanks.
Also I didn't know that "ruining a life" is a crime...LOL it's amazing how people see criminal law, they're capable of extending the states power to provide for their happines and selfconformity.

[Shaka_Khan]

We only have death punishment for serious crime like murder, kinapping and drug trafficing. For the other crimes they are punished by caning, jail terms and fine so i don't think our low crime rate is largely due to execution...

"Some 420 people have been hanged in Singapore since 1991, mostly for drug trafficking, an Amnesty International 2004 report said. That gives the country of 4.4 million people the highest execution rate in the world relative to population."
-SINGAPORE (Reuters)

In addition to that, there are people in Singapore who appose the execution, unless that news is wrong.

[AntiochusIII]

Singapore is a ruthless pseudo-fascist country that does not possess democracy and rigidly controls its own society. Nonetheless, it is a much better place than its surrounding countries, unfortunately, and ruthless penalty on criminals play its part. Malaysia, Indonesia, Cambodia, Thailand, Burma, India, Vietnam, etc, are all screwed up on various levels. Australia excepted. Most of the Asians nation (except Japan, perhaps), notably, however, are not-too liberal at all, if we base "liberal" on the American notion, and they have harsh penalties; if a criminal is ever caught, of course, considering the corruption.

I disagree on death penalty on principle, even if I have no mercy on drug"gies." Those who trade drugs should be on life sentence, but they should live. Those who claim hypocrisy of society when compare drugs to alcohol: I say I hate alcohol as much as drugs, but, unfortunately, it being mainstream protects it from the minority (really, really minor) attempts at ending its widespread and legal distribution. One only needs to see the failure of the Prohibition.

Ah, I could expect myself thrown out of the .org soon for hating beer.

[Lechev]

Gentlemen, if our country don't impose death penalty as a deterant to would be offenders, we'll be seeing more similar tragic cases like this:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/1848092.stm

" No Parents should bury their children " does this quote sounds familiar?

[Tachikaze]

Nruyen [sic] is a piece of crap drug trafficker who was stupid enough to break a law that he knew had a death penalty punishment. He should be burned on a steak with a big sign next to it that says, “Drug traffickers stay the hell out!”

Human life is valuable

This is why I'm so anti-conservative.

While I agree he seemingly made a stupid mistake (I don't don't know all the details and neither does Yesdachi), his life is valuable. Did he receive a trial with due process? Were his rights acknowledged? I thought Americans cared about these rights.

In my opinion, Yesdachi does not always consider human life valuable.

[bmolsson]

I think that it should be mentioned that the ASEAN countries where under heavy pressure 40 years ago due to all the drugs coming from the area. The golden triangle was filled with warlords that lived of drug trafficking and had political powers. The imposement of hefty penalties was due to weak law enforcement so a statement needed to be made. Even if I am against the death penalty, it worked and most offenders these days comes from countries like Australia, where you don't feel the fear.
In Asia a human life is worth much less than we are used to. It's sad, but reality.....

[InsaneApache]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/1848092.stm

Nice try, but there was recently a Police investigation into this as there was more than a suspicion of foul play. The family suspect that she was 'offed' because she was going to spill the beans on her junkie mates and suppliers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/Stor...275540,00.html

Looks very iffy to me at least.

[Adrian II]

The golden triangle was filled with warlords that lived of drug trafficking and had political powers. The imposement of hefty penalties was due to weak law enforcement so a statement needed to be made.

I think it has much more to do with the nature of tribal society where the individual is subordinate to the clan, tribe or nation. In Asia, this demand of subordination is reinforced by totalitarian leaders and by strong remnants of confucianism in a number of East-Asian countries. Individual pleasures divert the individual's attention and activity away from the group/tribe/wider society.
Secondly, totalitarian societies try to eradicate drugs because they are stimulants of the human imagination and as such subvert the hold of the thought police over society.
And thirdly, drug traffic usually fosters rival centers of power and corruption that obstruct the official power and corruption rackets run by the powers that be (for instance in Thailand or Pakistan).

[Viking]

You still don't understand it. First not always drugs kill, actually you can't die from abuse of marihuana. Second that doesn't matter for a penal case, but if you go to the moment when the police finds about him, not always he'll end death, but even then how is that this justifies capital punishment...It really escapes all logic.

Firstly, all smoking can kill, logic should tell you that. Secondly, when someone sells (I`m talking about heavy drugs like heroin, wich I assume Van Ngyen was trafficking) drugs, the seller is leading the buyer closer to death and is fully aware of it. The buyer might die of an OD of what he bought. This is what one might call attempted murderer.

I see that many people have problems to separate matters and treat them logically. The crime of the drug seller is to just sell the drug, not to kill, those are two separete actions, to separate moments that have two different disvalues.

Ever heard about common sense?

And you're right kill ratio doesn't matter, because all of this should be legal, wheter it's heroin or marihuana, in fact as said previously it's, but the problem is that people tend to forget that the Constitution is the primary law, above all others, of course I don't know what the Constitution of Singapore states, but if it suprimes individual freedoms, then excuse me but I'll stay here thanks.

Argumenting about individual freedom.... I don`t see why people should be able to ruin themselves if they want to, that`s just silly. They might be able to drag others with them into selfdestruction too. So much for individual freedom.

Also I didn't know that "ruining a life" is a crime...LOL it's amazing how people see criminal law, they're capable of extending the states power to provide for their happines and selfconformity.

Whoa; rape isn`t much else than "ruining a life". Imagine a society where as long as you don`t murder someone or doesn`t steal something, you can do whatever you want.

[Soulforged]

Firstly, all smoking can kill, logic should tell you that. Secondly, when someone sells (I`m talking about heavy drugs like heroin, wich I assume Van Ngyen was trafficking) drugs, the seller is leading the buyer closer to death and is fully aware of it. The buyer might die of an OD of what he bought. This is what one might call attempted murderer.

Again that's all you've assumptions. It's wrong to kill a man under any circumstances, it's even worse for the state to do it and it's even worse if you only have assumptions. That's an attempted murder if the seller represented the possibility of the buyer dying because of the product. However that's not the case here, and not even death justifies another death.

Ever heard about common sense?

I agree with you common sense is valuable, but it must be corrected in order to understand things. Specially things that have so terrible concecuences as an authoritarian law and capital punishment.

Argumenting about individual freedom.... I don`t see why people should be able to ruin themselves if they want to, that`s just silly. They might be able to drag others with them into selfdestruction too. So much for individual freedom.

I've explained this many times. Have you seen the movie 1984 (the one based on Orwell's book, I think it was "1984" but correct me if I'm wrong). The question that you've to ask yourself is that if you'll like to live in that world. The constitution however already protects the contrary values. The state provides for your freedom, and only that, the happiness of you or any other is unimportant princiapally because it's subjective. State doesn't have to look at morals it has to look at the free exercise of our RIGHTS, not obligations. And again assumptions and hipotesis "they might this, they might that..." I might be a terrorist, however I'm still free.

Whoa; rape isn`t much else than "ruining a life". Imagine a society where as long as you don`t murder someone or doesn`t steal something, you can do whatever you want.

So for you any crime deserves capital punishment or jail? However rape isn't punished because you "ruined a life" it's punished so you and others will not repeat that conduct again. Ruining a life is a vague concept at best.

[Lechev]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/1848092.stm

Nice try, but there was recently a Police investigation into this as there was more than a suspicion of foul play. The family suspect that she was 'offed' because she was going to spill the beans on her junkie mates and suppliers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/Stor...275540,00.html

Looks very iffy to me at least.

Related crime that still points to the same issue---> drugs. Thanks for the link, it give further support to why such deterant should be in place to deal with drug trafficking

[Papewaio]

Its not the death sentence that makes Singapore a nice society. After all all the surrounding countries have the death sentence.

The good standard of living in Singapore is due to its economy. Strong economy, based on knowledge skills leading to a well educated wealthy society. Compare that with other local economies that rely on oil wealth or minerals... those societies don't need knowledge and don't have a middle class as a result because they rely on primary goods and being sweatshops.

[Shaka_Khan]

Of 20 countries in Asia, only four nations -- Bhutan, Cambodia, Nepal and East Timor -- have abolished the death penalty, according to a 2005 U.N. report on capital punishment.

Three other nations -- Sri Lanka, Laos and Myanmar -- still subscribe to the death penalty, but have not carried out executions in more than 10 years.

Asia's 'grim view on drug crime'

[bmolsson]

I think it has much more to do with the nature of tribal society where the individual is subordinate to the clan, tribe or nation. In Asia, this demand of subordination is reinforced by totalitarian leaders and by strong remnants of confucianism in a number of East-Asian countries. Individual pleasures divert the individual's attention and activity away from the group/tribe/wider society.
Secondly, totalitarian societies try to eradicate drugs because they are stimulants of the human imagination and as such subvert the hold of the thought police over society.
And thirdly, drug traffic usually fosters rival centers of power and corruption that obstruct the official power and corruption rackets run by the powers that be (for instance in Thailand or Pakistan).

1. It might even be so easy that they are so many....

2. That would explain the US drug policy....

3. As in point 2....

[bmolsson]

Strong economy, based on knowledge skills leading to a well educated wealthy society. Compare that with other local economies that rely on oil wealth or minerals... those societies don't need knowledge and don't have a middle class as a result because they rely on primary goods and being sweatshops.

Singapore lives of it's airport, harbor and banking systems. All these parts are providing services to the countries around. Trade is made through Singapore since it's so easy to smuggle goods from there and the banks keeps all the corruption money with high secrecy. The threat against Singpore is that one day will the nations around get their act together and not need Singapore anymore......