Is this flag racist?

[TheSilverKnight]

The flag itself is not a racist symbol at all, but when it is used in the wrong context and connotation, with people saying such offensive things as "Born in England, Live in England..." etc, then people become easily offended and a stupid thing like this breaks out. So in short, NO. The flag is NOT racist. It was just hijacked for a purpose and people now believe it is racist, which is not the case at all considering the history behind the flag and the pride that English people (including me) show to it. The material printed on the flag, not the flag itself, is at fault, and it should be dealt with accordingly, but not to the extent where it would deface our national flag (of England).

So, like Louis the Fat said, "Context is what matters"

...so where's my cigar, InsaneApache?

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I have heard several reasons why the patron saint may have been changed.

1. England was busy getting buddy buddy with Genoa (patron saint of said city being George). Compare Genoa's flag with England's St George's cross.

2. George has always been a soldier's saint and Henry V was all about the war with France.

[InsaneApache]

I've hidden it in Boggert Hole Clough !!!! near the boating lake.......

[TheSilverKnight]

I've hidden it in Boggert Hole Clough !!!! near the boating lake.......

Damn you! *goes looking for cigars*

[Templar Knight]

Not really related to the actual debate, but I read in a newspaper (Metro) that St Georges became the Saint of England in 1415, before it was St Edward. Does somebody know why the change? Other collateral damage, the famous sentence in Agincourt was a poetic licence; The King should have say for England, Harry and St Edward…
Nothing is sure nowadays…

I believe it was during the reign of King Edward III of England (reigned 1327–1377)

[Strike For The South]

St George is nice but yall just cant compete

[IMG][/IMG]

[TheSilverKnight]

St George is nice but yall just cant compete

[IMG][/IMG]

Pah. Not needed in a thread about England

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Templar Knight:
is that so, I'd also heard that it was changed in 1415.

Interesting.

Do you know why? Either of the reasons I've heard?

[lancelot]

This quote slays me-

Brentford manager Martin Allen said he felt the words on the flag were racially offensive.

Offended of the phrase- "Born in England Live in England Die in England." ???

It is Mr Allen who is the racist by assuming that the slogan (that has no mention of race in it) is trying to offend him somehow by bringing his prejudice to light.

And even this guy has got it wrong-

But Oldham manager Ronnie Moore, said: "How can that be racist? Maybe if it was being flown at a match in Wales or Scotland it could be considered racist but I can't see how that it is racist here - I don't know what he's going on about.

He is confusing nationality with race.

Ive said this soooo many times it makes me sick. To be a real race-ist, implies you believe your race is fundementally better than another, ie-biologically better. Race can only be talked about in biological terms, coz thats all race is, a part of biology.

Often skinhead idiots believe they are somehow intrinsically better, in that case the tag of racist does apply.

If you believe your culture is superior to another and that the other is greedy, criminal, close-minded, arrogant, whatever. This doesnt make you a racist, perhaps a jerk, but not a racist.

Because a person might happen to also be from a different biological 'creed' (for want of a better term at the mo) doesnt automatically make it about race.

Too often people scream 'race' before even looking at whats said (or in this case, blatantly NOT said)

[Templar Knight]

Templar Knight:
is that so, I'd also heard that it was changed in 1415.

Interesting.

Do you know why? Either of the reasons I've heard?

Edward the III took an active interest in orders of Knighthood, in particular the new order at the time, 'The Order of the Garter' in which George was its principal patron. I believe the emblem shows a knight slaying a dragon. It’s probable that Edward III proclaimed St George Patron Saint of England in 1348.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Did the Order of the Garter choose George because of his military associations?

[Templar Knight]

Did the Order of the Garter choose George because of his military associations?

Im not 100% sure about the reasons behind it, but to me that seems likely.

[bmolsson]

Didn't know the English was racists. Actually are there any white englishmen left these days ??

[Tachikaze]

My solution is to not display flags. If anyone waves a flag, they are opening themselves up to attack, ridicule, charges of racism, etc.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

I think the confederate flag could be percieved as rascist, but it's not that big a problem. They weren't just standing for slavery...

[Efrem]

'A racist incident is any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person.'

Don't see how a flag can be racist, but this from one of the links provided is absolutly sickening, whoever came up with that definition should be hung drawn and quatered.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

And how old are you again?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

It's how you intend it to be, I think. I had a confederate flag on other forum as my avatar. It's just a symbolism; me being here in the south.

Now that flag, I think the saying is a shot at people who weren't born in England or live in England.

I was born in America, I live in America, I'm going to die in America.

Did I offend any non Americans with that?

Oh and short concise terms we have for non-Americans?

Commies.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Kaiser, I just recently found out some events that happened in Munich. I'm surprised I didn't hear about them earlier, but I now know where that is.

...sorry for being off topic...

[TheSilverKnight]

I was born in America, I live in America, I'm going to die in America.

Did I offend any non Americans with that?

Oh and short concise terms we have for non-Americans?

Commies.

Explain how non-Americans are commies, if you wouldn't mind. I'd love to see how you came up with that one

[Mouzafphaerre]

Explain how non-Americans are commies, if you wouldn't mind. I'd love to see how you came up with that one

.


I thought commies were those hanging at the .com, being unable to evolve into ORGAHs.
.

[Kanamori]

Explain how non-Americans are commies, if you wouldn't mind. I'd love to see how you came up with that one

Americans are the only ones truly for freedom. Anyone not for freedom is a commie. Therefore, non-Americans are commies. Seems simple to me

That's probably the most common term for someone "unAmerican" though.

[Strike For The South]

I think the confederate flag could be percieved as rascist, but it's not that big a problem. They weren't just standing for slavery...

Thats like saying the union jack didnt just stand for the tyranny and oppresion of millions for the sake of God Queen and country

[Kekvit Irae]

I thought commies were those hanging at the .com, being unable to evolve into ORGAHs.

Best quote of the day!

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Explain how non-Americans are commies, if you wouldn't mind. I'd love to see how you came up with that one

Americans to view most non-Americans with some suspicion, this dates back to the Red Scares most likely. Henceforth, you are all commies.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
A flag is nothing but a worthless piece of fabrique without its symbolisme. It's that symbolisme which gives a flag its meaning. Symbolisme is very much subject to subjective perception and deception, therefore can carry any meaning. Once a certain symbol is generally attributed to an object, that object becomes integral with that symbol and its symbolisme.

Thus became the poor svastika the sign of evil.
.

[Kanamori]

The burning cross a symbol of fear, the star of David a symbol for shame, and so many others More parties, less hate. A lovable commie, is still a commie, is still lovable

[InsaneApache]

Thats like saying the union jack didnt just stand for the tyranny and oppresion of millions for the sake of God Queen and country

It's NOT the Union Jack, how many times? It's the Union Flag. The Union Jack is a small square shaped flag flown on ships.

The term Union Jack possibly dates from Queen Anne's time (reigned 1702-14), but its origin is uncertain. It may come from the 'jack-et' of the English or Scottish soldiers; or from the name of James I who originated the first union in 1603, in either its Latin or French form Jacobus or Jacques; or, as 'jack' once meant small, the name may be derived from a royal proclamation issued by Charles II that the Union Flag should be flown only by ships of the Royal Navy as a jack, a small flag at the bowsprit.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page398.asp

Americans to view most non-Americans with some suspicion, this dates back to the Red Scares most likely. Henceforth, you are all commies.

I'm a commie my dear fellow that's just absurd

[Ja'chyra]

Flags are not racist, they're flags

The people waving the flags may be however.

I was born in America, I live in America, I'm going to die in America.

Did I offend any non Americans with that?

Oh and short concise terms we have for non-Americans?

Commies.

I'll take that as the joke I hope it was, as it be as untrue as saying that all Americans are overweight warmongerers.

[English assassin]

Born in England Live in England Die in England."

Well, the reference to being "born in England" does seem anti immigrant at least?

@Efrem

'A racist incident is any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person.'

There's a lot of history behind this. The police cocked up a murder investigation by not considering that the motive could have been race. IIRC they went off on one about seeing if the victim was a drug dealer rather than checking alibis of local racists. There was a public enquiry and the phrase you quote is now used to describe when the police must investigate an incident as having a racial motivation. Of course after investigation if they decide that there was no racial element they are perfectly entitled to reach that view, its just the test for when they shiould have the possibility in mind.

As for the flag, no it is not racist and the more non racists use it the less it will seem to be racist. I've seen black England fans wearing it on their way to Wembley and I doubt anyone raised an eyebrow. It is nationalist but that is mainly directed at our celtic cousins and IMHO harmless enough at present.