11th C horses.

**Watchman** · 12-10-2005, 02:27

Well, her dad had almost been killed by Italo-Norman lances back when Robert Guiscard tried to expand across the Adriatic. The Byzantines were enough on the receiving end of "Frankish" lances to have a healthy respect for them (curio detail: conversely the heavy maces of some Byzantine cavalry were apparently widely respected and feared).

One would assume that at least the early-pattern knights (you know, the ones who weren't much more than lords' household mercenaries) were by necessity heavily engaged in scouting and skirmish duties - there normally weren't too many other decent mounted troops beside them available anyway. And let's not underestimate the ability of knights to make themselves troublesome to horse-archers - after all, the Templars started out as volunteer guards for pilgrim caravans against "Saracen" raiders, many of whom were no doubt enterprising Turkic tribesmen out to improve their finances (not that horse archers were rare mong the more settled peoples of the region either)... A mail-clad fellow with a big shield is apparently annoyingly resistant to arrows, although his horse may be another story.

**The Wizard** · 12-10-2005, 02:34

Indeed, and that may all well be, but this is still all on a rather small scale. The lordly infighting -- these 'wars' on a ridiculously small scale were no more than ordinary raiding -- and the Templars' forces numbered from tens to a couple hundred men. No more than a Germanic comitatus, if not less.

I'm talking large-scale warfare, those not so very frequent campaigns involving thousands of men when the kings of Western Europe went to war against the Oriental rulers.

**Watchman** · 12-10-2005, 02:45

If you're referring to the Crusades to the Middle East (the Baltic ones wer eobviously rather different), the scouting and skirmishing duties were usually left to the Turcopoles who were rather better suited to it in the context given that they could more or less take on the Turks on their own terms.

Medieval campaigns, however, were overall mostly affairs of maneuver, skirmishing, siege and ravaging the enemy lands, with decisive field battles being rare - this both East and West. Obviously mounted forces were of prime importance due to their sheer mobility (and hitting power particularly in small-unit encounters), and while a lot of it was on the shoulders of assorted lighter cavalry and irregulars the chivalric heavies and their colleagues from other cultures were doubtless heavily involved, both as a sort of heavy reserve and as the "officer class" of the armies.

Nomads, naturally, could just sends some of their tribal cavalry before the main host to do reconnaissance and try to keep enemy scouts and harassers at an arm's lenght.

**Redleg** · 12-10-2005, 20:19

Now what many don't realized is that what the horse is fed also influences how much energy and stamina the animal has in completing its task.

Steppe Ponies ate primarily grass

Correct me if I am wrong - but did not the Europeans feed their warhorse grain.

**CBR** · 12-10-2005, 23:57

Originally Posted by Redleg

Correct me if I am wrong - but did not the Europeans feed their warhorse grain.

AFAIK horses need more than just grass if they are supposed to do hard work or they will lose weight fast. Except for the steppe nomads I think all fed their horses with grain.

CBR

**Redleg** · 12-11-2005, 05:54

Originally Posted by CBR

AFAIK horses need more than just grass if they are supposed to do hard work or they will lose weight fast. Except for the steppe nomads I think all fed their horses with grain.

CBR

Actually more then losing weight will happen. For instance the horse could founder in the middle of a charge. Lots of problems can occur from working horses beyond the levels of endurance provided by the nutrients that they recieve.

Sometimes Horses will founder because they get a feed they are not used to. I wonder what problems the Knights and their horses had after leaving the grass and feed available in Europe for the feed available in the Middle-East. or for that matter the Steppe Ponies as they came in contact with the lusher pastures of Europe.

I say this because I have seen horse founder off of a change in the type of hay they are given.

If anyone does not know what founder is here is a link that describes it and several of the causes of it.

http://www.invma.org/displaycommon.c...barticlenbr=20

**CBR** · 12-11-2005, 11:05

Originally Posted by Redleg

I wonder what problems the Knights and their horses had after leaving the grass and feed available in Europe for the feed available in the Middle-East. or for that matter the Steppe Ponies as they came in contact with the lusher pastures of Europe.

Well they lost nearly all horses in the first crusade before reaching Jerusalem. That undoubtedly was a combination of several factors of course.

Ann Hyland doesnt mention anything specific about differences in feeding (or I just cant find it) but more about the risks from sea transport as well as the different climate, that apparently caused lots of sickness in crusader horses. There were also all kinds of endemic diseases and the overall mortality rate must have been high.

CBR

**The Wizard** · 12-11-2005, 17:44

This is true, but to the steppe pony grass was grain. Try to feed a destrier grass the way steppe ponies ate it and he'll probably croak quite quickly (replying to Redleg on page 1). If not that, he certainly will not function to his full capacities.

**Redleg** · 12-11-2005, 20:19

I can't remember who said it - but its logistics that win battles and wars.

**The Wizard** · 12-11-2005, 21:54

Eisenhower, IIRC. And indeed, this bears true for modern warfare. But much more so than ancient warfare. Without effective means to blockade large regions and bring nations to their needs without a single battle, tactics enjoyed a position of greater appreciation before the late 19th century. Nowadays, generals busy themselves with strategy, and lower rank officers with tactics. This was different before (although it is not clear anymore when tactics end and strategy begins these days).

An army like that of the Mongols had little to no supply line. This, in turn, gave them their immense mobility and therefore ability to take the initiative at all times.