is there a map of europe around 323 BC?

[Marinakis]

I just wanna see what western europe and north africa ( carthage) looked like right before alexander died in 323 BC.

I have found many maps of alexanders empire, but i cant find any that show what rome, carthage or syracuse looked like at this time.

If anyone knows of such a map can you please send a link my way?

[RandyKapp]

[Copperhaired Berserker!]

Woah, big empire, BIG empire!

[RandyKapp]

Only took one quick goggle to find.

[Marinakis]

thats perfect!! thanx so much!

[GoreBag]

Teutons, eh? Interesting.

[jadam]

Teutons, eh? Interesting.

Indeed. Does anyone know something about them, I only heard about "teutonic knight"s in Age of Empires II
Any info about them is welcomed!

Thanks:Jadam

[Reverend Joe]

I can tell you a few basic facts off the top of my head, but Ranika will really be able to explain these guys in depth.

Essentially, they were a part of the northern, Scandinavian Germanic tribes (I think they were part of the old Germans- but I might be wrong about that.) They later joined in the mass migration to the east and south, which was afterwards forced west once again by the Bulgar hordes. The Teutonic Germans would become the typical Germans in old Germania after the southern Germans were forced south or asimilated by the migrating German tribes.

They may have later moved to the east; I know that the Teutonic Knights were a major political power in the late Middle Ages, when they moved into the east, and carved out a kingdom of their own along the Baltic. However, I don't know how, if at all, they were related to the old Teutonic tribes.

Again, I could be completely wrong about all of this.

[O'ETAIPOS]

Teutonic knights were not conected with ancient Teutons. They were knight order (like Templars or Hospitaliers). the only conection is fact that candidates for Teutonic knights had to be ethnicaly German.

Order was created in Palestine in 1198, but quickly moved to Europe. In 1225 they were granted land by Polish prince Konrad Mazowiecki (of Mazovia) who wanted them to fight Prus tribes attacking his land. In 1230 they get Pope's protection which allowed them to be independent. In about 50 years (to 1283) captured whole Prus lands. From this point they concentrated on fighting against Lithuania and Poland.

In 1525 became protestant vasal to Polish King and in 1667 independent kingdom called Prussia.

[Ranika]

The Teutones were not all of the Germanic tribes, but only one. When the Germanic tribes conquered the Urnfeld peoples who inhabited much of what would be Germania, and drove off the Celts there, they initially were fairly ill-equipped people with undeveloped weapons. They would import superior Celtic weapons, and imitate the style with what iron they could get. The Teutones were, to my understanding, sometimes viewed as partly Celtic because of their usage of almost all totally Celtic equipment and that some of them even spoke a Celtic language. Teutonic mercenaries worked for a lot of folks, and they reputedly had no qualms with marrying into Celtic tribes or families. However, they were certainly Germans due to a few customs, some things about the way they fought, and definitely by bloodline, they were Germanic. I believe EB will have Teutone mercenaries eventually, but that'll be post-OB.

[Reverend Joe]

The Teutones were not all of the Germanic tribes, but only one. When the Germanic tribes conquered the Urnfeld peoples who inhabited much of what would be Germania, and drove off the Celts there, they initially were fairly ill-equipped people with undeveloped weapons. They would import superior Celtic weapons, and imitate the style with what iron they could get. The Teutones were, to my understanding, sometimes viewed as partly Celtic because of their usage of almost all totally Celtic equipment and that some of them even spoke a Celtic language. Teutonic mercenaries worked for a lot of folks, and they reputedly had no qualms with marrying into Celtic tribes or families. However, they were certainly Germans due to a few customs, some things about the way they fought, and definitely by bloodline, they were Germanic. I believe EB will have Teutone mercenaries eventually, but that'll be post-OB.

[Sdragon]

Since we're in the time frame for now I've got a couple of questions, a couple of kingdoms that I see on a bunch of maps but know nothing about.
Massilia and Bosporan. Who were these guys? How did they fight? What happened to them? Massilia at one point just drops off the map while Bosporan was around long enough to be even in BI.

[RandyKapp]

I think Massilia is just a Greek colony.

[Ranika]

Massilia was also a Roman ally, and off-and-on an ally of Gauls, and ended that relation in the vast 'off' setting. Romans used this as a pretext to conquer the southern coast, and absorbed Massilia then, I believe it was.

[Spendios]

Since we're in the time frame for now I've got a couple of questions, a couple of kingdoms that I see on a bunch of maps but know nothing about.
Massilia and Bosporan. Who were these guys? How did they fight? What happened to them? Massilia at one point just drops off the map while Bosporan was around long enough to be even in BI.

Massilia (modern Marseille) was founded by Phocaean Greeks in 600 BC and became a big trade city in western Meditterranee. It allied with the Romans in 124 BC though it kept good relations with the gallic tribes near them (their main problem was Carthage who was a concurrent for trade )
In 49 BC, the city chose the side of Pompey and was destroyed by Caesar during the war. Caesar founded the city of Arles for his veterans with the territory of Massilia who was now reduced to only a city. After that the city steadily declined until the 11 th.


I don't know a lot about Massilia military but it may have been a classic hellenistic force with hoplites, peltasts, a few cavalry and maybe some gallic mercenaries.

[Chester]

Is there anything that Ranika does not know?

[Sarcasm]

No.

[Ranika]

The flattery is nice, but there's plenty. I have only a passing knowledge of many things outside the Celtic sphere in the era (Teutones, Greeks who fought with Galatians, etc., all fall into it, though even then I can forget details not about the Celts themselves), and my memory sometimes gets blotty even within it when I've been up too long, and I'll misstate things without intention, or poorly word my statements, or forget things.