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Thread: Bid to destroy Europe's support for Kyoto exposed

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    A Veteran Wargamer Member kiwitt's Avatar
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    Default Bid to destroy Europe's support for Kyoto exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by INDEPENDENT
    Bid to destroy Europe's support for Kyoto exposed

    08.12.05 1.00pm
    By Andrew Buncombe

    MONTREAL - A remarkably ambitious behind-the-scenes American blueprint for destroying Europe's support for the Kyoto treaty on climate change has come to light.

    The plan which was pitched to companies such as Ford Europe, Lufthansa and the German utility giant RWE emerged as 189 countries attempt to agree the second stage of Kyoto at the UN climate conference in Montreal.

    Put together by a lobby group funded by ExxonMobil, the world's biggest oil company and a ferocious opponent of anti-global warming measures, the plan seeks to draw together major international companies, academics, think-tanks, commentators, journalists and lobbyists from across Europe into a powerful grouping to destroy further EU support for the treaty.

    The documents reveal how the so-called "European Sound Climate Policy Coalition" should work.

    It would be based in Brussels and would have anti-Kyoto position papers, expert spokesmen, detailed advice and networking instantly available to any politician or company who wanted to question the wisdom of proceeding with Kyoto and its demanding cuts in carbon dioxide emissions that nations must make.

    The blueprint was been drawn up by Chris Horner, a senior official with the Washington-based Competitive Enterprise Institute and a veteran campaigner against Kyoto and against the evidence of climate change.

    One of his colleagues - who describes himself as an adviser to President George Bush -was last year the subject of a censure motion by the House of Commons after he attacked the British Government's Chief Scientist.

    Mr Horner, whose CEI group has received almost $1.5m from ExxonMobil, is convinced that Europe could be "successfully" influenced by such a policy coalition, just as the US Government has been.

    He believes Europe's weakening economies are likely to be increasingly ill at ease with the costs of meeting Kyoto.

    And in particular, he has spotted something he thinks most of Europe has not yet woken up to.

    Most of the original 15 EU Kyoto signatories - Britain is an exception - are on course to miss their 2010 CO2 reduction targets.

    But under the terms of the treaty, they will face enormous fines for doing so, in terms of much bigger reduction targets in any Kyoto second phase.

    These will prove unacceptably costly to their economies, Mr Horner believes, even if they try to buy their way out by buying up spare emissions for cash from countries such as Russia.

    Mr Horner believes the moment for his anti-Kyoto coalition is at hand and has actively been seeking support for it from multinational companies.

    In his pitch to one multinational, he wrote: "In the United States an informal coalition has helped successfully to avert adoption of a Kyoto-style programme by maintaining a rational voice for civil society and ensuring a legitimate debate over climate economics, science and politics.

    This model should be emulated...to guide similar efforts in Europe focussing on the economic and social costs of the Kyoto agenda."

    Elsewhere he claimed: "A coalition addressing the economic and social impacts of the EU climate agenda must be broad-based (cross industry) and rooted in the member states.

    Other companies (inc. Lufthansa, Exxon, Ford)have already indicated their interest!"

    Last night green groups hit out at the plan.

    Kert Davies, climate campaign coordinator for Greenpeace, which initially obtained the documents, said: "These are the hit-men for the Bush administration and for the likes of Exxon.

    They are behind the scenes doing the dirty work.

    Evidently they are now extending their efforts to Europe where they are trying to undermine the momentum to solve global warming."

    While there is nothing illegal about the lobbying, the documents reveals a rare insight into the well-funded efforts within the US to influence opinion at senior levels of European corporations.

    Campaigners say the campaign is similar to a notorious lobbying effort carried out during the 1990s to undermine support for Kyoto within the US.

    The revelation comes as international negotiators in Montreal are discussing the next step within Kyoto and the possibility of introducing new emissions targets.

    The Bush administration - which has rejected the treaty - has insisted it will not agree to any measures that legally bind it to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases.

    Mr Horner has been present this week in Montreal where he has been attending presentations for journalists and NGOs.

    When contacted by The Independent, Mr Horner confirmed that the strategy document was the draft of a presentation he sent to RWE.

    He adamantly defended his lobbying effort saying "that is what I do".

    He said he simply promoting a particular point of view, as did Greenpeace.

    "I don't begrudge them what they do [but] they begrudge me what I do." Asked if he thought it was appropriate for a major American oil company to be funding a lobbyist who was targeting European companies, he replied: "Everybody else does." But Mr Horner, who is also a senior figure within the Cool Heads Coalition, a group that questions the evidence of global warming and opposes any policies to "ration" energy, claimed his efforts to influence opinion in Europe had been unsuccessful.

    He said that RWE had not taken up the suggestions contained within his power point presentation, and that other companies had also rejected his ideas.

    "I don't know why it's surprising (that I have lobbied European companies),"he said.

    "What is surprising to me is why it's not working." Both Ford and RWE, confirmed that they and other European companies had invited Mr Horner and other advocates to meet with company representatives in Brussels last February - an offer that he took up.

    He had not been paid any fee nor had they contributed to his expenses.

    Mr Horner apparently travelled to Europe at the request of the European Enterprise Industry, a fledgling group hoping to emulate the CEI.

    Bill McAndrews, a spokesman for RWE, said: "He met with [us and] other German companies in Brussels.

    Brussels is the EU capital, there are a lot of people who come to meet.

    We have not approached him since then."

    He added: "RWE talks to all sorts of people.

    We even talk with Greenpeace and the World Wildlife Fund.

    We talk to various groups who come to Brussels...We discuss matters with all opinions.

    It's important to hear everybody's side on such a global issue.

    It does not mean that RWE shares that opinion." He said that Germany had undertaken to cut emissions as part of its adoption of Kyoto and that RWE had to follow those standards.

    Adrian Schmitt, a spokesman for Ford Europe, also said Mr Horner had met with company representatives on one occasion "at a Brussels level".

    He insisted that Ford had not supported Mr Horner's opinions.

    "Exactly the opposite.

    Our position is that climate change is a serious issue and appropriate steps need to be taken now".

    He said that the company had been one of the first companies to withdraw its support for the Global Climate Coalition - a now defunct lobbying effort that worked to oppose US reductions in greenhouse gas emissions during the late 90s.

    When Ford withdrew its support, the company CEO, William Clay Ford Jr, told his staff.

    "The climate appears to be changing, the changes appear to be outside natural variation, and the likely consequences will be serious.

    From a business planning point of view, that issue is settled.

    Anyone who disagrees is, in my view, still in denial." One of Mr Horner's colleagues at both the CEI and the Cool Heads Coalition, is Myron Ebell, who has described himself as a policy adviser to President Bush.

    Last year MPs tabled a motion to censure Mr Ebell after he attacked the government's Chief Scientist, Sir David King, who has described global warming as a bigger threat than terrorism.

    In an interview last November with the BBC, Mr Ebell said that suggestions that the environment was threatened by global warning were "ridiculous, unrealistic and alarmist".

    He said Sir David "knows nothing about climate science" and was an alarmist who was "promoting this ridiculous claim".

    Earlier this year, leading scientists warned that Britain's high profile position as a campaigner on climate change had led groups funded by the US oil industry to try and sway opinion inside the UK.

    Sir Robert May, president of the Royal Society, said that "a lobby of professional sceptics who opposed action to tackle climate change" was turning its attention to Britain because of its high profile in the debate.

    The CEI is far from alone in taking money from the oil industry to challenge the science on global warming.

    This summer a report in the US magazine, Mother Jones, listed a total of 40 public policy groups that have received funding by ExxonMobil and are seeking to undermine the scientific consensus that human activity is a factor behind climate change.
    LINK Hmmm .... Global Warning is not caused by Human's ... Yeah Right! Why is ExxonMobil sponsoring anti-kyoto groups ?
    Last edited by kiwitt; 12-08-2005 at 01:18.
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    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bid to destroy Europe's support for Kyoto exposed

    I was in the audience of a debate about Kyote, with a representative from Exxon-Mobile and a representative from the green party, and some other people who really didn't matter that much.

    Bottom line: Kyoto, if it works, will delay the irreversible heating of the planet by about 5 years (it should happen in a bout a 100) and as such, they don't believe it is worth the cost.
    I can give a more detailed explanation about their point sif someone cares enough, and if i can find the time...
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    IW Director, MA Mapper Member Ilsamir Lord's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bid to destroy Europe's support for Kyoto exposed

    But just because Kyoto would be a small delay doesn't mean that other, more extreme (read sensible) measures couldn't be taken. There is a real danger in believing problems to be unsolvable (or irreversable). The fact is that humans do not need to burn fossil fuels to survive - new fuel cells produce water as exhaust not green-house gasses. And if some politicians were tough enough to challenge bug business (like the oil and coal industries) we could reverse the problems.

    And before anyone says that that could lead to another ice-age I would like to say that we could just as easily release controlled amounts of carbon-dioxide and other warming gasses to avert such a disaster.
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    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Bid to destroy Europe's support for Kyoto exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilsamir Lord
    But just because Kyoto would be a small delay doesn't mean that other, more extreme (read sensible) measures couldn't be taken. There is a real danger in believing problems to be unsolvable (or irreversable). The fact is that humans do not need to burn fossil fuels to survive - new fuel cells produce water as exhaust not green-house gasses. And if some politicians were tough enough to challenge bug business (like the oil and coal industries) we could reverse the problems.
    That's why Exxon and the US want us to believe. Global warming is just a joke, and if it's real, we can't do anything to prevent it, because that's not our fault.

    Seriously, since none has the will nor the power to promote other energies, I think we're kinda doomed anyway.
    Hopefully, the bird flue will exterminate half of the world population, and thus kinda help the planet.

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    Default Re: Re : Re: Bid to destroy Europe's support for Kyoto exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Meneldil
    Hopefully, the bird flue will exterminate half of the world population, and thus kinda help the planet.
    Here I was wishing some good belgian beers, some money and an mp3 player for christmas - I think your wish is kind of ambitious and not very nice - you'll enjoy some beers (or wine or frogs) more I guarentee you.

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    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bid to destroy Europe's support for Kyoto exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwitt
    Hmmm .... Global Warning is not caused by Human's ... Yeah Right! Why is ExxonMobil sponsoring anti-kyoto groups ?
    Because people in Europe do believe in the Kyoto agreement? Not saying such a belief is unjustified, but ExxonMobil could have (and probably does have) perfectly valid economical reasons behind their planning against Kyoto; any Kyoto agreement would damage their incomes.
    "The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr

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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bid to destroy Europe's support for Kyoto exposed

    Not sure if it matters what the US and EU do, with China coming into an industrial revolution of their own. If there is a global warming problem making strict treaty conforming changes now may be like putting a band-aid on a leak in the lake pontchartrain levy before a class 5 (I can see Brown doing that then dusting off his hands and going back to dinner ). Not to say we shouldn’t try and be more earth friendly but I don’t know if the Kyoto way is the best way.
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    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bid to destroy Europe's support for Kyoto exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilsamir Lord
    But just because Kyoto would be a small delay doesn't mean that other, more extreme (read sensible) measures couldn't be taken.

    Sure if they are accepted on a global level and are avtually based on reality, not just politics.
    Belgium has some of the most energy efficient industry in the world, the only way we can reasonably lower our CO2 emissions by 2010 is by 'getting rid' if that pesky industry.
    We're also one of the main transit countries (25% of our CO2 emmision is caused by traffic), what can we do about that ? Our oil prizes are amongst the highest as it is, and forcing companies to use trains and boats is apperantly not okay with Europe.
    The best way we can reduce CO2 is by making our homes more energy efficient, however, people don't (re)build often, so it's a slow process. hastening that would be incredible expensive, not to mention against the freedom of the people.

    In short, we are getting ****** in the **** by kyoto and the EU, and there isn't much we can do about it, because the big players; Germany, France and the UK are far better of (under current agreements).


    There is a real danger in believing problems to be unsolvable (or irreversable).
    Agreed, however, a solution has to be economically viable or it will never completely work. Kyoto isn't workable, Bush knows it (or heard it somewhere), even Clinton knew it would never be accepted in the US.

    The fact is that humans do not need to burn fossil fuels to survive - new fuel cells produce water as exhaust not green-house gasses.
    Aside from the fact that H2O is the bigest green house gas, energy has to be produced somehow, currently we can only use fossil fuels or (possibly) nuclear power to meet the current demand.
    Fuel cells have been around for over 4 decades iirc, they're still not economically viable. Although progess is being made and it doesn't appear to be a total death end.

    And if some politicians were tough enough to challenge bug business (like the oil and coal industries) we could reverse the problems.
    Actually, at least over here, common house holds are responsible for the biggest waste of energy. Going up agaisnt big business is easy compared to going up against the electorate...
    (Note: iirc Americans use about 4x as much energy/resources as Europeans, don't go blaming the industry for everything, they're often an all to easy target).

    And before anyone says that that could lead to another ice-age I would like to say that we could just as easily release controlled amounts of carbon-dioxide and other warming gasses to avert such a disaster.
    I don't think stopping global warming (as far as it is caused by humans) will automatically lead to another ice age.
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bid to destroy Europe's support for Kyoto exposed

    Kyoto, if all nations signed it, would reduce, theoretically, temp by about 0.07 degree C-statistically indetectable. A very low number, especially considering the vast economic damage it would do (hundreds of billions in America alone), forcing poverty on many people.

    The really ironic part is that America is doing better at reducing emissions than the signers of kyoto:
    "Stop worrying about your money, take care of our planet," advised one of the protesters' placards. Au contraire, take care of your money and the planet will follow. For anywhere other than Antarctica and a few sparsely inhabited islands, the first condition for a healthy environment is a strong economy. In the past third of a century, the American economy has swollen by 150 per cent, automobile traffic has increased by 143 per cent, and energy consumption has grown

    45 per cent. During this same period, air pollutants have declined by 29 per cent, toxic emissions by 48.5 per cent, sulphur dioxide levels by 65.3 per cent, and airborne lead by 97.3 per cent. Despite signing on to Kyoto, European greenhouse gas emissions have increased since 2001, whereas America's emissions have fallen by nearly one per cent, despite the Toxic Texan's best efforts to destroy the planet.
    LINK:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../06/do0602.xml

    Perhaps Europe should get its act together.

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bid to destroy Europe's support for Kyoto exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwitt
    LINK Hmmm .... Global Warning is not caused by Human's ... Yeah Right! Why is ExxonMobil sponsoring anti-kyoto groups ?
    Because it hurts their business?
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    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bid to destroy Europe's support for Kyoto exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    Kyoto, if all nations signed it, would reduce, theoretically, temp by about 0.07 degree C-statistically indetectable. A very low number, especially considering the vast economic damage it would do (hundreds of billions in America alone), forcing poverty on many people.
    This impact on economy is vastly overrated imho, in general, most companies can make a break even when it comes to investments to save energy. It isn't unusual that it leads to additional profits in the long run even.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    The really ironic part is that America is doing better at reducing emissions than the signers of kyoto:

    LINK:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../06/do0602.xml

    Perhaps Europe should get its act together.

    Crazed Rabbit
    Not really, the biggest decline of emissions in Europe happened before Kyoto (in the 1990-1998 period), the US is just following a bit late. European industry in general is still more energy and resource efficient than American.

    Which makes perfect economic sense since European electricity has traditionally been more expensive than US electricity. They seem to be converging now (well, it's getting cheaper for us) which might explain why the Euro industry isn't so interested in additional investments to save energy anymore.
    Last edited by doc_bean; 12-09-2005 at 11:59.
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