CIA flights

[Franconicus]

Secret CIA Flights Won't Go Away
Reports keep coming of covert CIA flights through Europe that carry terrorist suspects to places where torture is legal. A German paper on Friday reports that they haven't stopped, which could be awkward for Angela Merkel if she wants to make nice with Washington. .... http://service.spiegel.de/cache/inte...386824,00.html

[Lazul]

This has gone on and on in Swedish press, and to be honest im hoping the swedish police/military gets their thumbs out of their asses and arrest/search that/those plane/s if they decide to land here again.

[bmolsson]

As long as their documentation is in order, why bother...

[Lazul]

well I dont really like the idea of CIA planes in sweden, torturing people.... just aint right.

[LeftEyeNine]

Justification of "sticking your nose into everywhere". I doubt they could be prevented under legitimate terms. They have reasonable (!) causes.

[Spetulhu]

Justification of "sticking your nose into everywhere". I doubt they could be prevented under legitimate terms. They have reasonable (!) causes.

Reasonable cause to stop flights like that? Or reasonable cause to send people to countries that will use torture by default?

[LeftEyeNine]

reasonable cause (!) for the fight against terrorism : "We're saving the world from the evil"

[Franconicus]

I did not start this thread to show what the CIA does. I guess that is nothing new. I guess they alwasy did what they liked to do and did not care about the host countries.

The new thing is that the hosts are upset and it looks like they will not accept that any longer. The funny thing is that our new Kanzlerin always wanted to improve the relatioship to Bush and now she makes her first trip to Washington DC and what is she talking about - CIA, torture, ...

[Husar]

Who elected her anyway?!?

[Geoffrey S]

If they're so upset about these flights, they should do something about it.

[Lazul]

If they're so upset about these flights, they should do something about it.

exactly, dont let them land, if they do... arrest the crew.

... then just wait for the Bushites to cry and whine about it.

[Meneldil]

I guess the arguing will be something like :
"There are no flights.
And if there are, that's the democrats' fault."

or

"This is War on Terrorism man ! Your hippie ideology won't save you when OBL will be rapping your wife and eating your children. Plus, these guy are probably really bad and deserve to be tortured. I mean, Castro tortures people, so why couldn't we ?"

Edit : I almost forgot the good old
"Define Torture", or even "Define Flights"

[Franconicus]

Are you kidding? Arresting Americans? Who work for their country and fight for freedom?

That would mean that German governments supports terrorists. And Germany has the potential to build and use chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. You know what the US does with those countries!

[Kanamori]

Well, they are CIA. I'm guessing they could sneak their way to, and through, places if they wanted to.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Isn't it legal by international law to intervene with anti-aircraft guns and fighters when military aircraft of another nations flies over your air territory? If they're working in WOT, i.e. a war, then they're military personell and it's justified to shoot the planes down according to international law. Or?

Moving people to torture them outside the US because it's illegal in the US is hypocrisy. Either torture them in the USA and take back the signing of UN human rights documents, so it becomes obvious that the US regime is committing crimes which will have no positive effect at all for the USA, acts which aren't supported by more than a minority of the US population, and which isn't justifiable in any way, especially not against people which haven't gone through any sort of trial and where there's no burden of proof at all required before the torture, often so harsh that it is lethal, begins. If it's part of the Bush political program to torture people to death without a trial, then it should **** well have been written clearly, BEFORE the election took place, as one of the points on their political agenda.

If the torture victims will die anyway, just shoot the planes down so the torture hurts the guilty too. The CIA guys on them are carrying out inhumane, unjustified actions, and it's more or less only by fanatical literal interpretation of law that they can be called legal. Of course, give prior warning over radio that you'll open fire against these military flights before opening fire, and give them a chance to turn around. If they're out of fuel let them take down to refuel but only if they use the fuel to go back in the same direction they came from. If they abuse the ability to refuel more than three times, take it away.

[master of the puppets]

your right about the use of arms against hostile aircraft but CIA covery cannot be considered combatants and to some degree have extraterritoriality in many places which i think is just BS.

also finding a loophole in international conduct is dispicable if the only end to it will be the torture of some terrorists (if we can prove thats what really happens) even protecting the country can stop at some degree, i can agree with the adherence oh high stress on the enemy but not downright torture. we act as if we are better then other countries by invading there airspace, and that is not how to cement international relations.

[Tribesman]

Send these CIA ghost detainee fights to Shannon if you have a problem with people in legal limbo and under threat of possible torture using your airports . Bertie could really do with the landing/ATC fees and refueling payments to make his break up of the airport authorities look viable .
Oh damn , he has already done it, cheap whore that he is .


I wonder if Italy is still allowing these flights , since they put out those arrest warrents for the CIA agents for kidnapping they must have firm legal grounds to stop all CIA flights to see if these fugitives from justice are on board .


As long as their documentation is in order, why bother...
How do you get documentation in order for someone who has been kidnapped ?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

This has gone on and on in Swedish press, and to be honest im hoping the swedish police/military gets their thumbs out of their asses and arrest/search that/those plane/s if they decide to land here again.

I hope you know that that would not go over well with the CIA. We'd have a rise in dissappearances in Sweden methinks.

And so the **** what? Their on planes, what does that have to do with you guys?

[Tribesman]

And so the **** what? Their on planes, what does that have to do with you guys?
Ever heard of a thing called soveriegnty , it covers land sea and air .
Ever heard of criminality or jurisdiction ?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

And so the **** what? Their on planes, what does that have to do with you guys?
Ever heard of a thing called soveriegnty , it covers land sea and air .
Ever heard of criminality or jurisdiction ?

Ever hear of escorts? Ever heard of transgression or threat of war? If you were to stop these flights it would be a transgression, and some very nasty things may happen. It's best just to ignore them.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I think CIA planes are safe from Sweden.

[Redleg]

Ever hear of escorts? Ever heard of transgression or threat of war? If you were to stop these flights it would be a transgression, and some very nasty things may happen. It's best just to ignore them.

If the plane is not flying under diplomatic recognization - then the plane must comply with the regulations and the laws of the nation in which it is overflying and/or landing in. If the plane is flying on a diplomatic mission it falls in a different catergory, not sure of all the rules in that regards


If they are using planes under the guise of diplomatic couriers - then maybe your comments here would be correct - but I am willing to wager that the planes are flying under a different guise then diplomatic.

If the nation where the plane plans to stop does not want the activities on their terrorities or the individuals - that nation can refuse them permission to land. If the nation allows the plane to stop but suspects actions that violate their laws - they then have two choices - arrest all involved and take ownership of situation - or allow the aircraft to depart. Most nations will ignore the situation while its own their soil - but complain after the fact. To bad they don't have the backbone to attempt to arrest the CIA agents and take the plane when its on their soil.

[Tribesman]

Ever heard of transgression or threat of war? If you were to stop these flights it would be a transgression, and some very nasty things may happen. It's best just to ignore them.
oh my stop it hurts
bloody hell capo what are you on ?
We will violate your soveriegnty ignore your laws and jurisdiction as well as our own laws and if you don't like it we will threaten you with war .

Don't worry here comes some helpful medication

[solypsist]

as redleg said, no one is forcing sweden to let the american cia use their airspace. there's some agreement between both countries involved here. i doubt sweden is completely ignorant of what's going on, too. so what, exactly, is the issue?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Ever heard of transgression or threat of war? If you were to stop these flights it would be a transgression, and some very nasty things may happen. It's best just to ignore them.
oh my stop it hurts
bloody hell capo what are you on ?
We will violate your soveriegnty ignore your laws and jurisdiction as well as our own laws and if you don't like it we will threaten you with war .

Don't worry here comes some helpful medication

YAY PILLS! w00tage.

[Tribesman]

so what, exactly, is the issue?
The issue is that the governments condemn it , launch inquiries into it , say they are protesting about it , but do bugger all to stop it .
Then again thats governments for ya

Capo YAY PILLS! w00tage. stick to the it messes your head but its legal .

[Adrian II]

i doubt sweden is completely ignorant of what's going on, too. so what, exactly, is the issue?

Sweden is completely ignorant of what is going on. That is the issue.

[ichi]

I guess the arguing will be something like :
"There are no flights.
And if there are, that's the democrats' fault."

or

"This is War on Terrorism man ! Your hippie ideology won't save you when OBL will be rapping your wife and eating your children. Plus, these guy are probably really bad and deserve to be tortured. I mean, Castro tortures people, so why couldn't we ?"

Edit : I almost forgot the good old
"Define Torture", or even "Define Flights"

You captured the essence perfectly.

BTW, your plane leaves in an hour

ichi

[Redleg]

Sweden is completely ignorant of what is going on. That is the issue.

Then its up to them to pay attention to what is going on in their airspace and on the ground at their airports

[bmolsson]

Then its up to them to pay attention to what is going on in their airspace and on the ground at their airports

You mean that Sweden is stupid to actually trust US when they declare the flights ??