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Thread: \"Camping\"

  1. #1

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    I am very fed up of people constantly complaining about "camping" and "campers". As far as I know, "camping" is a term first used in the Quake I community, usually to refer to someone who camps near important items such as the Quad Damage or rocket launcher. In this game the term makes sense - Quake was supposed to be an all-action deathmatch, not a tactical exercise. Standing still was not supposed to be an option. However in Shogun : Total War, this is not the case. STW is a game of tactics not blind attacking.

    I myself have been accused of camping on occasions. The reason for this is probably that my playing style tends towards the more conservative approach; I prefer to take up good defensive positions and let the enemy come to me. I would rather fight on my terms than those of my enemy. Any good general will tell you that this is a very sensible approach. I have played many other RTS games before STW, including C&C (and RA), AoE and Total Annihilation. In all of these games my style of play is mostly defensive and I attack only when 90% sure of victory.

    In fact I was accused of camping in a game last night. The battle lasted a fairly long time (36 minutes). It was a friendly 4v4 game in Yamato province. I played on the defending side, and set myself up with another player on the hill in the bottom left corner of the map. It was a low-ish koku game (4000 koku per team) so I had only 7 units (2 h0 WM, 2 YS h1 and h0, 2 h0 muskets and 1 h0 arquebusiers). I deployed my troops in a strong defensive formation and waited.

    My allies, however, did not. The first to be defeated was overrun by two enemies after his force was caught wandering around in no-mans land. The second stuck to a hill almost alone (a few troops from another ally as well) and was crushed as 3 enemies surrounded him. My enemies had the right idea - work together, use strength in numbers. My allies did not, and there was 1 and a half of us left, against 4 enemies. We must have been outnumbered around 3:1.

    The enemy advanced, and one which had not been involved in much of the fighting advanced up the hill. My Yari Sam and monks cut him to ribbons and killed his Taisho. His army routed. Meanwhile, my gun units were beginning to fire at the other advancing enemies. My remaining ally was holding one enemy off allowing me to engage the other. He attacked me with archers and Ashigaru, some of which routed under gun-fire, the rest fought hand-to-hand but eventually he routed. At this point the players on the opposing team began to send abusive messages, calling me a camper and much worse as well.

    As the battle began to turn in my favour, my ally routed. His forces were depleted anyhow, and the enemy's final push finished him off. No sooner had my troops gained one victory, they were under attack again. Because of my ally's defeat, the enemy had even gained the higher ground. Still, my troops stuck to their task and a combination of my YS/monks and gun units drove them back.

    They fled, rallied and were routed again by my muskets/arqs. The entire enemy army fled in defeat from a force they outnumbered. I consider this to have been a satsfying victory. By superior tactics, I survived when all my allies did not. My enemies attacked naively, believing they had already won, and paid the price.

    I would like to hear everyone else's opinion on whether or not this is camping, and whether or not I should change my style.

  2. #2
    Member Member Dwimmerlaik's Avatar
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    Camping? Nonsense, that was sound battle tactics, there was no way you could realistically have taken on odds like that by taking to the field...Sun Tzu would have been spluttering in his grave! It would have been 'camping'if you and your allies hiked up the nearest hill and thumbed your noses at your opponents...then again, war is not all neat and chivalric 'I'll meet you fairly on the field of battle' Hell no! You take what advantages you can from the terrain and force your opponent to utilise superior tactics...if he is too craven to do so, offer a rematch and let him defend while you attack...in any case, if you are fighting on a map like Shinano or Hida, what do you expect, him to meet you in the valley and let you take the heights? Sheer folly..you knew what you were in for when you agreed to play the map so suck it up!

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  3. #3
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    From what I've seen the term 'camping' is used to complain about players who host games in mountain provinces and then sit on top of the highest peak and force the challenger to attack at a major disadvantage. Sometimes even with a time limit just in case.

    I don't think that anyone objects to players who make good tactical use of the terrain.



    [This message has been edited by Didz (edited 11-04-2000).]
    Didz
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  4. #4

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    Ah no u c what i object 2 is 1v1 and the person deliberately climbing a hill when he could of suprise attacked me at the start and had a 70% chance of winning.

    THAT REALLY ANNOYS ME!

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  5. #5
    Senior Member Senior Member FwSeal's Avatar
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    From my own, somewhat limited experience on-line in this regard, it does seem that just about any sound tactic is likely to draw fire from the losing side as being 'camping', 'cheating', or some other heinous crime. After all, noone likes to lose - it takes a bit of growing up to take it in stride. I could hardly last three minutes on Tribes before I'd get killed - but it was always a fun three minutes.
    It sounds to me that all you did was salvage a bad situation and turn it into victory - hardly camping. It also provides a great 'one time when I was playing on-line...' story

  6. #6

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    Thanks, you seem to be agreeing with me!

    What really annoyed me was that the players I was playing against were members of a quite reputable Shogun clan and I would have expected better than to get abuse for my tactics.

    I do agree though that players who choose to host games where they simply sit at the top of a very big hill (especially with a timer) are extremely annoying. Often newbies tend to do this, but they learn. Eventually

  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member Obake's Avatar
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    Wasn't sure from the initial post if it was Rob Hojo, or LinkLord Akechi who was the author. Not that it matters, I'm just curious who was talkin!

    As far as I'm concerned, from what you wrote Rob, they deserved what they got. I know exactly where you were defending from on that map and there is a much easier access to get at you than straight up the hill! And even with the strength in numbers that they had, they should have been able to take you out anyway. What appeared to you to as good team co-ordination initially, may have been more luck than anything else.

    When I play multi-player, I will only play with certain people that I am familiar with. When we play together, we function more as divisions of a single army than as for armies working together. Some may consider this just semantics, but when you don't have to ask an ally for help, or how they are doing, because you already know, it makes a huge difference.

    This is the only area Rob, where I could see any reason for criticism. And I withhold that because it doesn't sound like you and your allies have played together very often.

    Your playing style is your own! If that involves taking a strong defensive position and waiting for the enemy then so be it! Now if you had also chosen a 10 or 15 minute timer and set it up in Winter, we might have an issue! However, I wouldn't worry about anyone complaining you are a camper. Those that do are not worth your playing time anyway. A skilled player/team would have just overrun you rather than b*tch because you hold a strong position!

    For my part, whether I am attacking or defending, I am usually very agressive. Doesn't mean that I am dumb enough to run down a hill into a wall of guns, but typically my men are stomping their feet, rending their garments, and gnashing their teeth all the while muttering "gonna get me some ears"! In all actuality, they behave more like a bunch of bloodlusted Orcs than Samurai. Fortunately they love me and follow my every command to the letter so they almost never rush!

    Point being, to each their own and if they're complaining, their not worth playing again. There is always a way to get the victory!

    Obake

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  8. #8

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    Erm yeah it is lord i think coz we had an arguement bout this tonight!!!!!

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  9. #9
    Naughty Little Hippy Senior Member Tachikaze's Avatar
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    If your enemies had had the same patience as you, they would have hit you all at once, and trashed you. They would have been so proud of themselves. They probably only complained because they blew an opportunity and you won by keeping your head.

    If I understand your description of the battle, your four opponents initially only had to face fragmented enemies while you sat on the hill. Your side was divided, they could have unified, destroyed the other three, and had you for breakfast. This is one of the main disadvantages to camping.

    Once your allies were reduced, you chose the right tactic.

    Most of the time, I don't consider camping on a hill to be a big advantage, unless a cowardly defender stacks the odds against the attacker during game setup (short time limit, etc.). What you gain in restfulness, uphill placement, and careful setup, you lose with the attacker's greater mobility, flexibility, and ability to present a wider attack front. One exception is the wide slope. If a defender can find a wide, steep slope on which to wait, the attacker has a difficult task. However, in these cases, the attacker can usually climb a flank.

    I'm not playing competitive games, yet. I taking the time to practice against foes who like to take the defensive advantage. Hopefully, by the time I hit the competition circuit, I will have figured out how to handle a camper.

    I guess what I'm saying is, campers' days are numbered. Those who like to keep moving will keep learning, and those who sit all day will stagnate. The attackers will find creative ways to defeat campers, and campers will learn how to pitch tents. So let the campers camp.

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  10. #10
    Senior Member Senior Member The Black Ship's Avatar
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    Shinano-left mountain ridge-dead of winter-15 minute timer. Now that's camping

    There are 60+ maps (Tosa you made any new ones in the last 24 hours?), of those 50+ will offer a defender an advantage. What's an attacker supposed to do? Well if you're an attacker you might as well learn the finer points of prying your opponent off a mound . Then, come tell me

    Often attacking armies would inflict grave damage to their opponents provinces/populace in order to goad them into battle. Course in the multi-play world I'm not sure what you could do to make your opponent relinquish a strong position.

    Maybe each province could have an object of such great value that losing it would cause an army-wide honour drop
    All we are saying....is give peas a chance - Jolly Green Giant

  11. #11

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    It's me, Rob Hojo (or RobRA Hojo these days )

    Dunno why you though I was LinkLord, though two of the players I was playing against where from the Chain Clan.

  12. #12
    Gifted Dilettante Member DragonCat's Avatar
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    That wasn't camping.

    However, it does bother me that tend to ONLY take the defensive positions. This does make you "camper-like". If, after defending, you allow rematches and switch positions, then you are not a camper. If you do not, then I would put you in the camper mentality and would encourage you to be the attacker at least 50% of the time. You will benefit from learning to play better and from having a wider range of experiences in the game.

    But no, in that battle you were the true victor, not the camper.



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  13. #13
    Senior Member Senior Member Obake's Avatar
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    Wasn't sure Rob since LinkLord's name is Robert as well. Thought maybe he had gotten the name first and I wanted to make sure. Also, LinkLord was quite upset about being called a camper (in his newbie days, remember?).

    Congrats to you and RA on the victory Rob!

    See you on the battlefield!

    Obake
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  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member TheRonin's Avatar
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    Rob, I totally agree with you, I really hate it when some guy(not just newbies) continues to scream: F'ing Camper!(You can only imagin what outher kind of obscean language that can be added to that sentence) Think about it, someone is not going to just Rush his/her troops in to face an almost certain death just beacus you want him/her to, or beacus you just want the game to end in your favor, this is a Strategy game peeps, we all have our own style of playing, you either live with it or leave, but I strongly urg you not to make a big deal out of it if someone likes to have Patience(sp?) I have no control over what go's on in your games, but if you feel like makeing a fool out of yourself then thats your own choice. Camping = pitching a tent, building a fire, singing some songs, Drinking(if you like to and your over 18 )
    and makeing tent sounds with the opposite sex(Again if you like to and are over 18 )

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    [This message has been edited by TheRonin (edited 11-04-2000).]
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  15. #15
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
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    One can read in history where one side would set up on a slope or hill and the other would draw his lines, offering battle.
    (Roman history is rife with this) The hill defender rarely gave up his advantage and came down for the fight. Camper, right? Smart? You bet!
    It defies both logic and intelligence to expect one to surrender the advantages his insight can provide. If I have an army of ashigaru and my opponent has all monks, is he obliged to permit me to attack his rear because he is at advantage?
    There have been several very good descriptions of bad "camping" given here. Yours battle and positions seem like nothing
    more than wise moves and nothing like camping.

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    Member Member Ocelot's Avatar
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    Camping in multiplayer is lame and is *not* a valid tactic. I get bad impressions when I play people who sit their little army on a hill waiting for me to climb.

    Defending a hill would be a totally valid tactic if it was a real war or the campaign game because then I could choose if I wanted to attack or not. In a multiplayer battle I have no choice. In a real war I could use other strategies and amass a large army to attack the hill. Perhaps I could raise multiple armies and attack that little army sitting on that hill from multiple directions. In a multiplayer battle I cannot do that. We both start with the exact same number of koku. No sane general would attack an equal army uphill.

    But we have no choice in multiplayer. Campers exploit that advantage. These are the people that would be *totally* I mean totally annihalated if they fought on even grounds on flatland. They take every advantage they could get because they know they cannot compete on even terms.

    What I'm trying to say is that campers are wussies and exploiters or at least that's the impression I get from playing these people.

    [This message has been edited by Ocelot (edited 11-04-2000).]

  17. #17
    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    hmm...campers. this could get ugly.....

  18. #18
    Senior Member Senior Member TheRonin's Avatar
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    All im saying is, People can play however they want, they can even Kamakazie you if they wish, there are no online rules that say that you have to play a certin way, last I checked there are no rules when it comes to battle tactics, we all have a brain, and we can use it how ever we wish, just dont bash someone just beacus they choose to play a certain way, I may not have any control of what happens online, however I will delete posts and threads that bash these so called "Campers

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  19. #19

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    Ocelot, if you aren't particularly good at hilly maps, might I suggest you try flatter maps such as Totomi, Nagashima or Tosa Inu's Magyorsaga?

  20. #20
    Senior Member Senior Member TheRonin's Avatar
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    On a side note: Takeing advantage of everything is sometimes the best way to ensure a victory, its always best to have the advantege over your enemie, how else do you expect to win?

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  21. #21
    Senior Member Senior Member ShaiHulud's Avatar
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    Ocelot,.... Malvern Hill, Little Roundtop, Alesia,Antietam, Fredericksburg, Monte Cassino,Masada, Gergovia, Thermopylae... These are all examples of battles where, for reasons other than insanity, one army fought uphill.

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  22. #22
    Member Member Methabaron's Avatar
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    Hi Ocelot,

    Quote Camping in multiplayer is lame and is *not* a valid tactic.[/QUOTE]

    Since when?. The defender has all the right in the world to camp as he is THE defender. Did you noticed the attacker/defender stances options available?, did you notice the attacker decides on weather?

    Quote We both start with the exact same number of koku. No sane general would attack an equal army uphill.[/QUOTE]

    Well, sometimes generals do not have too much choices available, I'm afraid. But in this case this is a game and you can choose NOT to play a game where you attack a defender well positioned on a perfect hill. There are other forums where discussions on how to balance this are going on, but at this moment, camp is a perfect valid option and it does indeed give a better chance to the defender. You dont like it?, dont play it. Or play in Totomi as many of us do.

    Quote Campers exploit that advantage. These are the people that would be *totally* I mean totally annihalated if they fought on even grounds on flatland. They take every advantage they could get because they know they cannot compete on even terms.[/QUOTE]

    How would you know?, I met many ppl that have a very good intuition about tactics and are always capable of sensing what the best tactic is for a given situation no matter the map. It turns out that for a defender on a hilly map one of the best options is being in high ground.

    If somebody didn't want to have such an advantage they would never play hilly maps as starters !, they'd just play Totomi... after all what's the point of defending on a hilly map if you are not using the hills!!

    Metha

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    [This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-04-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-04-2000).]
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  23. #23
    Naughty Little Hippy Senior Member Tachikaze's Avatar
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    It sounds like things are getting a bit harsh.

    The defender using hills is a viable tactic. It can be abused, though, like many things. I understand why some players are frustrated. There are a lot of threads on this subject.

    I've heard many solutions to the imbalance of def vs. att in hilly terrain. My favorite is the trade. I defend, then you defend on the same map.

    Also, I wouldn't play a game personally with a timer set at less than 30 minutes. I would prefer 50.

    I believe that the attacker having some choice in the weather provides a little balance, too.

    Oh well, it's all been said before.


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  24. #24
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Well I actually like defenders who sit in one place and wait to die.

    Providing, the host has chosen a reasonable map there are always weaknesses in the defenders position and those who sit and wait for me to find them are greatly appreciated.

    I particularly appreciate defenders who refuse to move even when my army is deploying in full view across their flank. Its amazing how often that happens. I even shouted at one of them just to make sure he was still there (thought he might have lost connection or something)

    Didz
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  25. #25
    Member Member clairobscur's Avatar
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    Except on the boards, I don't see that much players complaining about camping. I'm clearly a camper myself. When I defend, I quite always stay on the top of some hill, and no opponent until now ever complained about it.
    And in the same way, quite all of my opponents wait for me at some spot easy to defend. I believe that if camping wasn't a legitimate tactic, the majority of the players would be outlawed.

    Of course, it would funnier if the game was balanced in some way to reduce the advantages of the defender, but meanwhile....

  26. #26
    Member Member Rodhern's Avatar
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    Wouldn't it be great if you could make the defender play with less Koku than the attacker? Or would it just ruin the honour-ranking system?

  27. #27

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    Well I agree with Rob ok it may be said that I camp abit but as far as I see it if you have had someone go online and attack you,

    its up to them to come up with the tatics to do so not you to say "well hey I've got a really strong stance here but hell I'm going to say here kill me now and move all my troops into weak stances."

    war is bloody and unfair remember in war there are no real rules and its the victor who writes the history at the end of the day.

    so be as cunning as bloody possiable
    Sayonara

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  28. #28

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    Campers are fun just ask Yogi Bear!! Sometimes we climb up together and have sandwiches with our opponents then after we eat their sandwiches Yogi kills em!!

  29. #29
    Member Member Widda's Avatar
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    Played an interesting game on the weekend.

    Defending in Totomi. Set up in a defensive block in the center of my half of the map. Trying to channel my opponent into my center killing ground. Flat = fair ( NOT!!! ). At any rate my opponent then slowly but purposefully moved around my right flank. As I manoeuvred my men to keep facing his the slow procession continued. I had YC moving to his right/rear flank looking for straglers but alas there were none. Eventually he had the high ground ( what little there is ) and it seemed thats where he was gonna stay. So instead of !camping! in the center of Totomi I engaged both flanks to draw his fighting units apart. Then when he was fighting two fronts with a weak center drove fully into his Taisho and wrapped around the rest. Game over, uphill and without advantage.

    It seems to me that people let themselves be distracted by the fact that they have obvious disad's and don't think to seek alternatives. There are good tactics for - !camping!, defending flat terrain, attacking flat terrain and attacing !campers!. Try not to let your annoyance of your perceived notion of your opponents tactics detroy what hope you have of winning.

    Widda.

    [This message has been edited by Widda (edited 11-06-2000).]

  30. #30
    Senior Member Senior Member ElmarkOFear's Avatar
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    Hi Rob! I am glad to hear that the clan in question was not anyone of my clan. For most of us, we have learned to LOVE attacking campers on hills! I think that your strategy is fine. The only exception would be with your teammates if you just sat on the hill the whole time that they were being attacked. Which, from experience, I know that you do not do. You actively defend your teammates flanks', when possible and that is honorable. "Camping" on a hill is a valid strategy and this is stated in all the game manuals and strategy guides. (It is not a cheap tactic unless like stated before: You set a short timer, winter weather, and camp on mount Fuji!) LOL
    As you also know Rob, any hill position can be taken no matter how hard the climb. You have seen Obake, Blackship, myself, and many of the Fears take hills that many other teams would refuse to attack. Tosa is an especially nasty one, but one I have only lost at twice. One of those being with a player I had not played with much in the past and the other, one in which one of our teammates dropped. You were defending in that one, and if i remember correctly, you and Zen chased my poor little guys all over the map. So you obviously know WHEN to camp and when not too.
    Obake and Blackship should be ashamed of themselves though for making my men attack up that big Tosa mountain!! I hate it when they point to the hill and say, "ATTACK ELMARKO, KILL THE INFIDELS!" Alas, I am used to their wiley ways now and my men are more than happy to charge their way to oblivion for the sake of the team!
    I have seen the future of TW MP and it is XBox Live!

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