No-Dachi\'s lack of armour

[Draksen]

IMO, the No-dachi warrior is a good unit, sometimes a very good unit.
The only problem is its lack of armour... lack of piercing armour against archery units, and lack of melee armour.

When I create a No-Dachi unit, its "life expectancy" is rather short !
After 1 or 2 battles, at the very maximum, I have still 30 men left in this unit !

LACK OF ARMOUR => LOW LIFE EXPECTANCY => HIGH TENDANCE TO PANIC...

Thats the other problem I have with this unit... often, in melee battles, although my army is clearly winning, my no-dachis panic ! ...

Comments ?

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Kazamatsuri clan
www.geocities.com/draksen

[Draksen]

Sumimasen, wasuremashita...

Should I consider the No-Dachi unit as :

1- an elite unit usable only for some special tasks (and which tasks ?)

2- a suicide unit ! (KAMIKAZE, BANZAI !!!)



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Kazamatsuri clan
www.geocities.com/draksen

[Catiline]

Frankly i used to think they were a waste of money until i played online more,and got thoroughly whipped by people using units of the buggers. THey are good if there used properly, if not, ie when used by me, they're rubbish. I think the theory is flanking with them and making sure they've got plenty of honour. keeping them hidden in the trees is doubly good, hides them from arrows, and gives you a fast assault unit for ambushes.

i still don't use them much in SP, you might as well go for monks, usually by the time you cna build them moneys's not rteally an issue

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It's not a bug, it's a feature

[Plant_head]

In SP I use them on bridge assaults as a sort of shocktroop at the beginning of the game when I don't have WM. In wedge formation they kick their way thru anyone holding that bridge head. Use them as a second wave, after your YS have gone in and are needing support.(Think I learnt that ages ago at Lanza's site.)

MP they are cheaper than WM and fulfill the same role, i.e shocktroops to kill YS, Nag, YA etc. + they have a pretty good morale so they keep on fighting and they also don't tire that quickly, so are good for uphill battles.

You said they panic alot. This could be because you attack headon with them. If I have to attack an enemy headon I do it with YS and then flank with my ND. YS are cheaper and "more" expendable.

i.e WM cost 500koku, instead buy YS 200koku and ND 300koku. hold with YS and flank with ND, end of WM. (hope I have those values right)

Mind you if you've seen me in action (Catiline) you'll know I'm arse, so this is all theory from my side.

[Draksen]

Thank your for your answers, Catiline-san and Plant_head-san !

Plant_head, you have said that this is only theory... yes, true, but theory is important. I think that knowing well the capacities of a unit (and here, the capacities of the Nodachi) is the base of all strategies, no?

In a certain way, I understand that "flancking with nodachis" is a good but difficult strategy.
I mean that (in theory) attacking 1 WM unit with 1 YS and 1 ND is simple...
(200+300, it's ok Plant_head-san !)
But with a more "complex" army, the flancking is not easy, especially if the ennemy makes "an arrow rain of death" on your poor No-Dachis... SAYONARA No-dachis !
(and they will be destroyed very fast, faster than any unit in the game)

Do you know other good (and easy) NO-DACHI tactics/technics ?


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Kazamatsuri clan
www.geocities.com/draksen

[johnmcd]

I think Nodachi are best used defensively. There susceptibility to arrows makes them very difficult to use offensively unless they are sent on huge flanking manoeuvres to try to rout archers and such behind enemy lines.

When used defensively I find my better control of the battlefield allows me to flank enemy yari with much greater ease, and, even if they do get shot to ribbons later in a fight they can inflict such massive damage when flanking that it scarcely matters. I’ve been quite convinced on a number of occasions that a troop of Nodachi have won me a battle even if not one of them is standing at the end.

I think their cheapness does give them a role beyond Monks too, I tend to build them in my archer province (ie a Legendary Swordsmith) and then they can open up any unit in seconds.

[Catiline]

Further to my earlier post, one thing that I have found works quite well is to use 2 units of ND grouped with a unit of cav archers to give them covering fire. Get it wrong (I usually do) and they all die. THe other way which sometimes works is to distract enemy missile units with a feint using yari cav, whilst you get hte nd in closer. However, this is a lot of micro management (why is this phrase coming up so much recently, it's a bit of a soundbite )
aand if you're not careful the yari cav get ccut up by the supporting spearmen your eenemy ought to have with ihm


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It's not a bug, it's a feature

[lanza27]

Wow, I'm glad to see someone learned something at my site. hehe.

I must agree with the use of No-Dachi defensively more than offensively.

In a very defensive situation I put them right behind my Naginata. Once a unit engages my naginata, i walk around with the nodachi and create a sandwich which kills anything.

In more offensive type rolls I still use the No-Dachi however not until I know the Archer threat is neutralized. Once I have tied up or distracted the Archers I bring my second wave of attack in very fast, usually No-Dachi, to push the battle in my favor.

What I also try to do is build my no-dachi with an armory to enhance there life span. Or build up the swordsmith really rewally fast in that province. This way they become a flat out slice and dice unit. There still very easy to kill but what little time they have against an enemy in melee makes all the difference in the battle as they will kill a huge % of anything they attack.




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Lanza
Shogun Totalwar Hints and Strategies
www.geocities.com/totalwarshogun
Please feel free to stop by and contribute your strategies...
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are

[Puzz3D]

Draksen, The ND are exactly the same as WM except for the defense value. The WM are 4 points (80%) better on defense in hth. So, a ND unit will loose badly to an equal honor WM. The armour value is used to determine survivability against ranged weapons. You want to keep both of these units away from archers, and, if possible, protected by trees until the arrows are used up. Keep everything away from guns until they've been weakend or are tired out.

I think the ND are best used in a supporting role rather than your first strike troops. Despite their high morale, if they take high losses they will rout. Delay bringing them in until enemy units are a bit fatigued, use them to flank, and use a depleted unit or two to chase routing enemy if you don't have Cav. On their own they do well against YS, YA and SA. It's a close call against Nag. You don't want ND tangling with cavalry, and you can't catch gun units.

Their high losses make them an expensive proposition in the single player campaign. However, if you can get them early on, they'll beat up on YS and YA.

I agree with what Catline and Plant_head have said, but H1 ND have served me well online.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Doragon_Ajidrik]

Heck, h0 ND have serve me well!

[solypsist]

I like the No-Dachi. Frankly, having juts one unit isn't going to make much of a difference, but try having about five. I once fought some custom battles using small armies of only one troop type against AI controlled balanced armies, and found repeatedly that No-Dachi are every bit as good as monks and, hwen used en masse, don't take the heavy casualties one or two units seem to suffer in games. They're fast, they kill, they're cheap, and they definitely make an opponent think twice about risking their own units in a balanced combat.
I use them extensively in bridge battles and actually win without suffering the usual 1 to 1 casualty rate.

[ShaiHulud]

Previously it was mentioned that ND and WM differ only in defense. That is accurate. Now, put the ND in 'Wedge' formation and their high killing power is bumped greatly. Yes, they die faster, too, but their hit advantage makes them almost even with even WM. The best formation for WM against ND in 'Wedge' is 'Hold'.

Because, like WM, ND have high morale it is likely that you are putting them in untenable situations that cause them to rout. Being in battle AND being rained on by archers is one such. Losses cause morale checks. Avoid enemy troops to their flank and rear, even if they aren't being attacked from there. This causes morale checks. Guns cause morale checks. Enemy units between your unit and his Taisho cause a morale check. Given enough morale checks even ND and WM will eventually fail one.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[ElmarkOFear]

Being the master of the routing troops. I would like to remind you from my vast experience running from the field of battle, that if you lead with troops who have a high base morale factor (monks & no-dachi&Heavy Cav.) and they rout they will take your entire army with them. If you lead with troops of a lesser base morale (yari sams, yari ashigaru) and they rout through your monks,no dachi, Heavy cav. your army will stay in tact. Monks do not worry about routing ashigaru, and samurai, but you can bet that if an ashigaru or yari samurai would see monks and nodachi running away they would be very eager to follow them.

Also, I have noticed that there are a lot of new people playing now and they tend to make one very bad mistake. They separate their army and thus do not get the morale boost from having their troops covering each others' flanks (side and rear). It is better to wait and get organized then to rush into battle one or two units at a time. Also, make sure you do not bunch up your army when attacking. Keep them spread out with a few troops left in a close second rank to cover any possible flanking maneuver by your opponent. Just a few tips from a professional newbie.

[Tachikaze]

No-Dachis

1) Use for flanking, as mentioned above. I don't find this difficult. I deploy them on the wings. If the enemy archers are hitting them (usually I keep them out of range until the melees begin), then they aren't hitting my center, where the rest fo my force is advancing.

2) Use in trees. They are perhaps the strongest units in forests, except Monks. Most other units suffer penulties because of long weapons or being on horseback.

3) As make-shift cavalry. They are pretty fast, and can chase down some units. They can sit on the wings until a good opportunity to charge into the flanks of a melee. They can also charge into archers that are shooting someone else.

4) Front line shock troops. Screw the arrows! No-dachis kick YS butt any day! Charge five No-dachi units at the front lines. The enemy archers can't hit all of them. Do this when you also have cavalry in your force. When the archers fall back to shoot, threaten or charge them with flanking cavs.

In custom battles, an all-No-dachi army does very well against a comp mixed force.

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

[Draksen]

With the "Shogun Battle generator" I have made this little test :

-A-
60 No-Dachi (Honor 2)
vs
60 Monks (Honor 2)
Last men standing : WM, 14 men.

-B-
60 No-Dachi (Honor 2)
vs
60 Monks (Honor 1) (still more expensive than the ND)
Last men standing : WM, 7 men.

-C-
60 No-Dachi (Honor 2)
vs
60 Monks (Honor 0)
Last men standing : TIE !




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Kazamatsuri clan
www.geocities.com/draksen

[lanza27]

Not for nothing my friend, but I find that Battle Calculator to be wrong when I actually play. Its a good rule of thumb that I used in the beginning of my playing days to gauge certain assault probabilities. However, it cannot possibly take into account the entire picture.

Head to head the WM will beat the ND but in the capacity I use them and in the capacity alot of other people seem to use them, they are more worth it cost/benefit wise then are warrior monks.

This is just my opinion.



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Lanza
Shogun Totalwar Hints and Strategies
www.geocities.com/totalwarshogun
Please feel free to stop by and contribute your strategies...
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are

[BanzaiZAP]

Koku for koku, I think CA got ND pretty well balanced. Much cheaper than monks, but they die faster. Otherwise, a great all-around shocktroop, especially when you Go Green. In the campaign, it's a bit easier and cheaper to get ND, but I like to keep WM around, too, just to fill ranks. Definitely building an armory or two will be a BIG help - you won't take nearly the losses to archers! And in the Expansion, you'll be able to take existing units and upgrade their armor/weapons! Gee, they DO love us!

-- B)