Backstabbing your allies?

**NodachiSam** · 12-13-2005, 07:33

Does anyone else have a really hard stabbing your allies in their posteriors? I swear, I would do so much better if only I took advantage of other factions weaknesses but I can't bring myself to do it when they are allies. Right now with XL mod I'm playing the swedes and the moscowvians have been a longtime ally and and even offered me an alliance after I took an opportunity to become neutral before I could attack. I could take them militarily and my kingdom would be much better off because of it, they are my biggest rival GA wise.

**Mr White** · 12-13-2005, 09:48

As peacetimes are scarce in my campaigns (they all seem to be out for my blood) I tend to use them to organise my defenses rather then planning an attack. I'm never inclined to attack an allie as I need all the help I can get when the rest of my neighbours start testing my defenses. (If your empire grows big enough you should be glad if there is one country that stucks with you)

**ichi** · 12-13-2005, 10:36

I agree, Alwas try not to attack allies, even when its easy and productive. Usually I try to find a faction they are warring with, make a treaty with that faction to negate the treaty with my old buddies, or failing that, pull all but a peasant unit out of a juicy province and wait for teh inevitable attack. Seemed easier in Shogun, just wait two turns and they'd attack.

ichi

**matteus the inbred** · 12-13-2005, 11:46

yeah, i think the AI in shogun was much inclined to casually betray you and attempt to swipe provinces. i never had much compunction about attacking them with no warning. i think you were supposed to lose honour if you did it a lot, but i never noticed that happening to me!

i'm reluctant to do it in MTW though. it seems bad and immoral. not that executing 500 prisoners just for defending their homeland is 'moral' either really! if you're a small 'locked' province like Aragon or have no decent rebels to attack, why bother allying with them in the first place? unless this affects the AI's response? can you make the AI 'suspicious' by refusing an alliance for no reason other than you're intending to invade them?

**lugh** · 12-13-2005, 12:24

I don't think the campaign AI is sophisticated enough Matteus, but it'd be a nice feature! Really byzantine (in the constant intrigue sense), you refuse an alliance to avoid getting into a war with their enemies and end up getting invaded for your troubles!

If my allies are weaker than me, I'll help them where I can, lifting sieges, even overseas if my treasury can afford the constant ransomings. If they're realm is bigger than mine, I'll be queitly plotting their downfall, marking targets for my assassins and readying my armies out of sight of the border!

**matteus the inbred** · 12-13-2005, 12:35

i think you're right lugh, but it is a shame! the threat of force etc., or being able to 'demilitarise' your borders, which would save those florins.
i have helped out in sieges, but generally find willing military allies a pain in the butt. recently, with the Hungarians (hard, early) i invaded Venice (900-odd v 2000 Italians) and received the 'help' of 1300 HRE and 1500 Sicilians. naturally, i didn't get the province as my allies had brought more men, which left my strategy in tatters despite the fact that i 'won'. and attacking them to get it back anyway would be a) suicidal and b) ungrateful!!
the Italians countered, however, and knocked out the Sicilians, so i attacked again and got...another huge army of Germans 'helping' me to help themselves. by now the Italians even had fewer men than me, so i didn't need help at all...allies eh? i think i prefer enemies. stuff Venice. my quietly sulking king is off for a nice holiday in the Balkans where rebels and Byzantines abide. for now.

**miho** · 12-15-2005, 23:31

When I decide to attack someone I usually do it from more than one side if I have the ships. Also if you win 3 or 4 battles in a turn your enemy will have a civil war.

**Darius** · 12-16-2005, 09:06

I do my best not to directly backstab, I prefer to make it look like an accident. So while my allies army is pounding away at the enemies, I just fire my missiles into the general crowd and blame it on the wind.

**Martok** · 12-16-2005, 18:02

If I want/need to backstab an ally, I usually wait til they're at war with someone, and then ally with that other faction (assuming I'm not already, of course). That way I get to choose which faction I stay friends with without losing honor and influence.

**Yoyoma1910** · 12-16-2005, 22:31

Originally Posted by Martok

If I want/need to backstab an ally, I usually wait til they're at war with someone, and then ally with that other faction (assuming I'm not already, of course). That way I get to choose which faction I stay friends with without losing honor and influence.

That is how alot of people did it in the Middle ages as well, for instance the Burgundians. They were originally allied with the Norman kings of England when the Plantaginists decided to challenge their leige, but then shifted back to the King of France latterr, helping to turn the tide of the war.

**NodachiSam** · 12-18-2005, 08:01

I guess trying to ally with your ally's enemies or provoking them to attack are the ones that makes the best sense. Sometimes it can pay to assasinate your fathers and brothers in law but inheriting stuff is so rare is hardly worth mentioning.

I was read the manual during installation, hehe so I luckily knew about the honour (In STW)/ influence thing from the start.