What did the picts look like?

[Ranika]

He's always been big on local and family folklore. Apparently we have an inordinately high number of stories about ghosts and the like in my family. Was great as a kid, usually, I enjoyed being scared. Usually anyway.

[Shigawire]

I was just wondering what the picts looked like in the various historical accounts.

I've looked at a lot of Pictish stones and have a general idea of what they wore in terms of clothes and how they wore their hair, but I'm not really sure as to what their hair color was like and things like that.

They were, in fact, hairy bastards.

They also liked to draw pictures.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
So, what's known about who they were? I've seen accounts on them being Celts but also ones stating that they were non-Celts [more] indigenous to Britain. Bede, I think, says that they had a different language.
.

[Randarkmaan]

I read in a book once that many early celtic warriors fought naked because they believed that not even the best armour in the world would be able to protect them, Because the time you are supposed to die is predetermined and wearing armour was basically the same as cheating your own destiny.

[Ranika]

.
So, what's known about who they were? I've seen accounts on them being Celts but also ones stating that they were non-Celts [more] indigenous to Britain. Bede, I think, says that they had a different language.
.

Both the Venerable Bede and St. Columba reported their language as having been wholely different than either British or Gaelic languages. Columba even used it as an excuse not to try and convert them, and instead sent his protege to try. Columba only went himself after his protege was martyred by pagan Picts, and, despite having been trying for years to study the Pictish language, called it 'impenetrably difficult'. Columba, it should be noted, spoke many British dialects and could converse in all of Ireland, including in the regional language of what is now presumed to be Ivernic. He was no linguistic slouch, and if he says Pictish was a difficult language, he was probably deadly serious about it.

That said, what is a Celt to us? A Celt is a member of the Celtic superculture, itself broken into many sub-cultures. We can discern that later Picts were 'Celtic', if by nothing else than their culture being so similar to Celts, with similar art styles, customs, and livliehoods. At the same time, they possessed some uniquely non-Celtic traits, such as prigomeniture laws (the passing of titles by bloodline; Celts elected tanists, and many Gaels of the period saw the Pictish system as 'tyranny', though it was ultimately used against the Picts to consolidate rule of Pictland under a Gaelic king). Ancient Caledonians may have well not been Celts by any stretch. They had a very unique culture in many places. However, some were incontrovertibly a Celtic people.

Even in the dark ages, some of the northernmost Picts may not have been Celtic by a strict definition, but the southerners were most certainly, even for a few non-Celtic traits, and much of the highlands were steadily Gaelicized (Picts even took to wearing Gaelic clothing much of the time, and their language may have been replaced by a mixture of British and Gaelic depending on the regions, before the last Pictish king was killed).


Also;

I read in a book once that many early celtic warriors fought naked because they believed that not even the best armour in the world would be able to protect them, Because the time you are supposed to die is predetermined and wearing armour was basically the same as cheating your own destiny.

This is speculation, and poor speculation at that. It overlooks the proliferation of armor amongst high society, and religious combatants such as Carnutes. It is unlikely Celts believed in fate to such an extent they wouldn't defend their bodies. I suppose it is possible some groups held this superstition, but the fact that they developed armor doesn't mesh with it as being a 'Celtic' trait, so much as probably a 'local' trait. Gaesatae, for example, did not want to die. They fought nude because it made them appear more frightening and allowed them to move freely. Potentially, they also didn't wish to get cloth in wounds they sustained for fear of infection after their drugs wore off. There are a lot of reasons to fight nude in the ancient world, and we don't need to immediately jump to superstition.

There are practical values in nude or near-nude combat, which are the most likely reasons because they're the most obvious. They also fit with a culture that develops armor, and especially a specifically war-like culture, in which various concepts of how to fight would come about. Make no mistake, Celts were clearly making a science of how to fight. Irish myth is filled with references to different fighting styles and philosophies (including fighting nude for sake of mobility). It is largely an argument based on flexibility; one can be rigidly armored and slower, but well-defended. Or, you can be very agile, and rely on your physical speed to protect you, rather than armor. Most accounts of Celts hurling themselves on enemy spears come long after the fact by authors who had never seen Celts in battle. Even contemporary accounts may be misleading or confused. For example, Celtic shortswords would roll under walls of spears to stab the spearmen (like what destroyed the Macedonian army and caused the Pergamons to start kneeling a pike row down, and possibly what helped defeat the early Hellenic-style Romans). That'd be pretty hectic, and a few may not manage to get under those pikeheads in time. Now, if you saw a man essentially run into a spear (without realizing he was trying to get under it) you may think he's so disregarding of his own life that he's just trying to render your weapon useless by sticking his body on it.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Mouz:
Bede listed the languages of Britains and included British (i.e. Welsh), Irish (i.e. Gaelic) alongside Pictish,

However, every reliable Pictish placename is Celtic. Even the famous "Pitt" place names have a Brythonic first element ("Pitt" which is basically Welsh "Peth") with a Gaelic second element. The other ones could just as easily be either Welsh or Gaelic.

I'd treat Bede in many areas just as you would any other early medieval source, with caution.

Kenneth Jackson suggested that Pictish was non-Celtic but the consensus amongst the current Pict scholars is that he was incorrect and that it was a Brythonic language.

[the_handsome_viking]

For example, Celtic shortswords would roll under walls of spears to stab the spearmen (like what destroyed the Macedonian army and caused the Pergamons to start kneeling a pike row down, and possibly what helped defeat the early Hellenic-style Romans).

Will this tactic be in the opening beta? I seriously hope it will be.

[Julian the Apostrophe]

Ranika, please, write a book collecting your uncle's stories, and others you know. The whole world is waiting to learn more about Celtic literary tropes than faeries and big dogs.

[The Pict]

The Picts were a small-statured, black-haired, dark-eyed people. Their descendants can often be seen in the Scottish people. They probably came from Iberia having crossed into what later was the UK from France. Many Scots are dark or short-statured or both. This is a genetic legacy of the Picts.

[Ranika]

Will this tactic be in the opening beta? I seriously hope it will be.

I don't think we can do this with the engine.

And there are already some common stories of other things from Gaelic myth. Just, they aren't as popular for some reason. A quasi-recent one that has a few versions would be the English-language 'Ned Kelly's Bones', which is about a man who dies, but doesn't feel dead, so he gets up out of his grave and goes home, and his wife can't get rid of him. Ned Kelly is a 'rigi' (though no version says it; I don't know the modern term to be honest, 'rigi' is a dark age term). Normal rigi cannot resist dancing, so his wife gets a fiddler, who has been courting her since Ned died, to play music until Ned dances, and his dry, decaying body breaks apart. In some versions, that's pretty much it, in one of the older versions, Ned goes mad as he's dancing and starts screaming and tries to kill his wife, but since a rigi can't stop dancing, he can't actually hurt her. In any ending, his bones are placed back in his coffin all mixed up so he can't get out.

The stories I was told often include a lot of violence or just abject horror though. Some involve things like that though, and some involve odd jokes or tricks to overcome evil beings. I was told some stories about faeries as a child, and they were generally pretty scary. Though, real Irish faerie myth is usually pretty disturbing, or at least weird.

[QwertyMIDX]

I like that story. Tell us another.

[the_handsome_viking]

Hey Ranika I was wondering...

Sometimes I have come across information that has said that the picts were related to the scythians, is there any truth to this? or is this complete nonsense? and if the latter, how did that rumor come into being?

Also do you know anything about what kind of instruments the celts played? I know they played harps and I'd assume they played drums, but do you know of anything else they would play?

[the_handsome_viking]

Great answers so far Ranika.

One other thing I was wondering about the celts and well... the classical world in general, When it came to close combat was there any sort code of honor or any moves that simply were looked down upon?

I've read from time to time that there were fighting schools within celtic societies I'd assume various forms of martial arts would be taught there which makes me wonder how fights would be organized within Celtic society.

Would you challenge someone to a duel? or would you just attack them out right? could you kick them in the groin? or kick them on the ground? was biting, gouging or stamping allowed? or were these moves looked down upon? or did it really depend on the tribe? and if so was there any particularly vicious tribe that had an "anything goes" kind of outlook when it came to violence?

Also A lot of Celts seemed to have long hair which leads me to wonder, was hair pulling frowned upon? or did they tie their hair in a certain way to make hair pulling a less obvious option, I know hair pulling seems a bit girly but, it seems like an obvious thing to do in a fight.

[Riadach]

Ehen did columba say this? We have no written records from him.

Both the Venerable Bede and St. Columba reported their language as having been wholely different than either British or Gaelic languages. Columba even used it as an excuse not to try and convert them, and instead sent his protege to try. Columba only went himself after his protege was martyred by pagan Picts, and, despite having been trying for years to study the Pictish language, called it 'impenetrably difficult'. Columba, it should be noted, spoke many British dialects and could converse in all of Ireland, including in the regional language of what is now presumed to be Ivernic. He was no linguistic slouch, and if he says Pictish was a difficult language, he was probably deadly serious about it.

That said, what is a Celt to us? A Celt is a member of the Celtic superculture, itself broken into many sub-cultures. We can discern that later Picts were 'Celtic', if by nothing else than their culture being so similar to Celts, with similar art styles, customs, and livliehoods. At the same time, they possessed some uniquely non-Celtic traits, such as prigomeniture laws (the passing of titles by bloodline; Celts elected tanists, and many Gaels of the period saw the Pictish system as 'tyranny', though it was ultimately used against the Picts to consolidate rule of Pictland under a Gaelic king). Ancient Caledonians may have well not been Celts by any stretch. They had a very unique culture in many places. However, some were incontrovertibly a Celtic people.

Even in the dark ages, some of the northernmost Picts may not have been Celtic by a strict definition, but the southerners were most certainly, even for a few non-Celtic traits, and much of the highlands were steadily Gaelicized (Picts even took to wearing Gaelic clothing much of the time, and their language may have been replaced by a mixture of British and Gaelic depending on the regions, before the last Pictish king was killed).


Also;



This is speculation, and poor speculation at that. It overlooks the proliferation of armor amongst high society, and religious combatants such as Carnutes. It is unlikely Celts believed in fate to such an extent they wouldn't defend their bodies. I suppose it is possible some groups held this superstition, but the fact that they developed armor doesn't mesh with it as being a 'Celtic' trait, so much as probably a 'local' trait. Gaesatae, for example, did not want to die. They fought nude because it made them appear more frightening and allowed them to move freely. Potentially, they also didn't wish to get cloth in wounds they sustained for fear of infection after their drugs wore off. There are a lot of reasons to fight nude in the ancient world, and we don't need to immediately jump to superstition.

There are practical values in nude or near-nude combat, which are the most likely reasons because they're the most obvious. They also fit with a culture that develops armor, and especially a specifically war-like culture, in which various concepts of how to fight would come about. Make no mistake, Celts were clearly making a science of how to fight. Irish myth is filled with references to different fighting styles and philosophies (including fighting nude for sake of mobility). It is largely an argument based on flexibility; one can be rigidly armored and slower, but well-defended. Or, you can be very agile, and rely on your physical speed to protect you, rather than armor. Most accounts of Celts hurling themselves on enemy spears come long after the fact by authors who had never seen Celts in battle. Even contemporary accounts may be misleading or confused. For example, Celtic shortswords would roll under walls of spears to stab the spearmen (like what destroyed the Macedonian army and caused the Pergamons to start kneeling a pike row down, and possibly what helped defeat the early Hellenic-style Romans). That'd be pretty hectic, and a few may not manage to get under those pikeheads in time. Now, if you saw a man essentially run into a spear (without realizing he was trying to get under it) you may think he's so disregarding of his own life that he's just trying to render your weapon useless by sticking his body on it.