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Thread: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    If only there were more democrats like him.


    Our Troops Must Stay
    America can't abandon 27 million Iraqis to 10,000 terrorists.

    BY JOE LIEBERMAN
    Tuesday, November 29, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

    I have just returned from my fourth trip to Iraq in the past 17 months and can report real progress there. More work needs to be done, of course, but the Iraqi people are in reach of a watershed transformation from the primitive, killing tyranny of Saddam to modern, self-governing, self-securing nationhood--unless the great American military that has given them and us this unexpected opportunity is prematurely withdrawn.

    Progress is visible and practical. In the Kurdish North, there is continuing security and growing prosperity. The primarily Shiite South remains largely free of terrorism, receives much more electric power and other public services than it did under Saddam, and is experiencing greater economic activity. The Sunni triangle, geographically defined by Baghdad to the east, Tikrit to the north and Ramadi to the west, is where most of the terrorist enemy attacks occur. And yet here, too, there is progress.

    There are many more cars on the streets, satellite television dishes on the roofs, and literally millions more cell phones in Iraqi hands than before. All of that says the Iraqi economy is growing. And Sunni candidates are actively campaigning for seats in the National Assembly. People are working their way toward a functioning society and economy in the midst of a very brutal, inhumane, sustained terrorist war against the civilian population and the Iraqi and American military there to protect it.

    It is a war between 27 million and 10,000; 27 million Iraqis who want to live lives of freedom, opportunity and prosperity and roughly 10,000 terrorists who are either Saddam revanchists, Iraqi Islamic extremists or al Qaeda foreign fighters who know their wretched causes will be set back if Iraq becomes free and modern. The terrorists are intent on stopping this by instigating a civil war to produce the chaos that will allow Iraq to replace Afghanistan as the base for their fanatical war-making. We are fighting on the side of the 27 million because the outcome of this war is critically important to the security and freedom of America. If the terrorists win, they will be emboldened to strike us directly again and to further undermine the growing stability and progress in the Middle East, which has long been a major American national and economic security priority.





    Before going to Iraq last week, I visited Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Israel has been the only genuine democracy in the region, but it is now getting some welcome company from the Iraqis and Palestinians who are in the midst of robust national legislative election campaigns, the Lebanese who have risen up in proud self-determination after the Hariri assassination to eject their Syrian occupiers (the Syrian- and Iranian-backed Hezbollah militias should be next), and the Kuwaitis, Egyptians and Saudis who have taken steps to open up their governments more broadly to their people. In my meeting with the thoughtful prime minister of Iraq, Ibrahim al-Jaafari, he declared with justifiable pride that his country now has the most open, democratic political system in the Arab world. He is right.
    In the face of terrorist threats and escalating violence, eight million Iraqis voted for their interim national government in January, almost 10 million participated in the referendum on their new constitution in October, and even more than that are expected to vote in the elections for a full-term government on Dec. 15. Every time the 27 million Iraqis have been given the chance since Saddam was overthrown, they have voted for self-government and hope over the violence and hatred the 10,000 terrorists offer them. Most encouraging has been the behavior of the Sunni community, which, when disappointed by the proposed constitution, registered to vote and went to the polls instead of taking up arms and going to the streets. Last week, I was thrilled to see a vigorous political campaign, and a large number of independent television stations and newspapers covering it.

    None of these remarkable changes would have happened without the coalition forces led by the U.S. And, I am convinced, almost all of the progress in Iraq and throughout the Middle East will be lost if those forces are withdrawn faster than the Iraqi military is capable of securing the country.

    The leaders of Iraq's duly elected government understand this, and they asked me for reassurance about America's commitment. The question is whether the American people and enough of their representatives in Congress from both parties understand this. I am disappointed by Democrats who are more focused on how President Bush took America into the war in Iraq almost three years ago, and by Republicans who are more worried about whether the war will bring them down in next November's elections, than they are concerned about how we continue the progress in Iraq in the months and years ahead.

    Here is an ironic finding I brought back from Iraq. While U.S. public opinion polls show serious declines in support for the war and increasing pessimism about how it will end, polls conducted by Iraqis for Iraqi universities show increasing optimism. Two-thirds say they are better off than they were under Saddam, and a resounding 82% are confident their lives in Iraq will be better a year from now than they are today. What a colossal mistake it would be for America's bipartisan political leadership to choose this moment in history to lose its will and, in the famous phrase, to seize defeat from the jaws of the coming victory.

    The leaders of America's military and diplomatic forces in Iraq, Gen. George Casey and Ambassador Zal Khalilzad, have a clear and compelling vision of our mission there. It is to create the environment in which Iraqi democracy, security and prosperity can take hold and the Iraqis themselves can defend their political progress against those 10,000 terrorists who would take it from them.





    Does America have a good plan for doing this, a strategy for victory in Iraq? Yes we do. And it is important to make it clear to the American people that the plan has not remained stubbornly still but has changed over the years. Mistakes, some of them big, were made after Saddam was removed, and no one who supports the war should hesitate to admit that; but we have learned from those mistakes and, in characteristic American fashion, from what has worked and not worked on the ground. The administration's recent use of the banner "clear, hold and build" accurately describes the strategy as I saw it being implemented last week.
    We are now embedding a core of coalition forces in every Iraqi fighting unit, which makes each unit more effective and acts as a multiplier of our forces. Progress in "clearing" and "holding" is being made. The Sixth Infantry Division of the Iraqi Security Forces now controls and polices more than one-third of Baghdad on its own. Coalition and Iraqi forces have together cleared the previously terrorist-controlled cities of Fallujah, Mosul and Tal Afar, and most of the border with Syria. Those areas are now being "held" secure by the Iraqi military themselves. Iraqi and coalition forces are jointly carrying out a mission to clear Ramadi, now the most dangerous city in Al-Anbar province at the west end of the Sunni Triangle.

    Nationwide, American military leaders estimate that about one-third of the approximately 100,000 members of the Iraqi military are able to "lead the fight" themselves with logistical support from the U.S., and that that number should double by next year. If that happens, American military forces could begin a drawdown in numbers proportional to the increasing self-sufficiency of the Iraqi forces in 2006. If all goes well, I believe we can have a much smaller American military presence there by the end of 2006 or in 2007, but it is also likely that our presence will need to be significant in Iraq or nearby for years to come.

    The economic reconstruction of Iraq has gone slower than it should have, and too much money has been wasted or stolen. Ambassador Khalilzad is now implementing reform that has worked in Afghanistan--Provincial Reconstruction Teams, composed of American economic and political experts, working in partnership in each of Iraq's 18 provinces with its elected leadership, civil service and the private sector. That is the "build" part of the "clear, hold and build" strategy, and so is the work American and international teams are doing to professionalize national and provincial governmental agencies in Iraq.

    These are new ideas that are working and changing the reality on the ground, which is undoubtedly why the Iraqi people are optimistic about their future--and why the American people should be, too.





    I cannot say enough about the U.S. Army and Marines who are carrying most of the fight for us in Iraq. They are courageous, smart, effective, innovative, very honorable and very proud. After a Thanksgiving meal with a great group of Marines at Camp Fallujah in western Iraq, I asked their commander whether the morale of his troops had been hurt by the growing public dissent in America over the war in Iraq. His answer was insightful, instructive and inspirational: "I would guess that if the opposition and division at home go on a lot longer and get a lot deeper it might have some effect, but, Senator, my Marines are motivated by their devotion to each other and the cause, not by political debates."
    Thank you, General. That is a powerful, needed message for the rest of America and its political leadership at this critical moment in our nation's history. Semper Fi.

    Mr. Lieberman is a Democratic senator from Connecticut.
    How is it we here almost nothing of this speech or what its about from the mainstream media? Yet Murthas speech is front page news?
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 11-30-2005 at 03:08.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Good find Gawain, I had been meaning to read that.

    How is it we here almost nothing of this speech or what its about from the mainstream media? Yet Murthas speech is front page news?
    Because Lieberman isnt towing the Vietnam line?
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Hmmm...

    Is Lieberman asserting that there are only 10k left after the slew we've killeed or detained?

    If so, that is excellent news, since the accepted ratio for supression of guerilla fighters is 10-1 and we do have that many boots.

    If he is asserting that there were never more than 10k and that the number remains static, then I would like to know who has been hamstringing our grunts and preventing them from cleaning up and finishing the job.

    If this is merely a rhetorical point illustrating that the opposition forces in Iraq are a tiny minority compared to the larger population, then I would agree -- but would prefer that to have been clearly noted.

    Sad, but probably inevitable point about the graft/wastage on the econ side. Since we have to do this kind of reconstruction stuff all too often, we really should be developing ways to do it better.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  4. #4

    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    So, the Senator for Tel Aviv is in favour of American intervention in the ME. What a suprise!

    No doubt he and his Israeli pals will be cheering from the sidelines yet again when the US invades Iran. After all, why fight your own battles when you can get some other schlub to do all the fighting and dying for you?

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by screwtype
    So, the Senator for Tel Aviv is in favour of American intervention in the ME. What a suprise!

    No doubt he and his Israeli pals will be cheering from the sidelines yet again when the US invades Iran. After all, why fight your own battles when you can get some other schlub to do all the fighting and dying for you?
    Boy those sneaky Jews, huh?
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
    -Abraham Lincoln

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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    If only there were more democrats like him.
    Obviously he is being voodoo controlled by the right.

    Nice find, thanks for sharing Gawain.
    Peace in Europe will never stay, because I play Medieval II Total War every day. ~YesDachi

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    Prematurely Anti-Fascist Senior Member Aurelian's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Yes, yes... Iraqis have more cell phones... the Kurds are happy... there is less terrorism in the Shia South... our soldiers are wonderful people... yada yada.

    For some reason, Lieberman reminds me of the impersonation Dana Carvey used to do of Bush I's talking points during the 1988 election: "Stay the course... a thousand points of light... stay the course."

    The problem in Iraq right now is that the Shia and Sunni are using death squads against each other. When we invaded Iraq we stuck our noses into an unresolved religious/ethnic power-struggle/vendetta. It was never a situation that was going to lend itself easily to a democratic transition. To the Sunnis, our democratization attempt meant that they went from running the country to being in a permanent minority status vis-a-vis the Shia and Kurds Saddam had spent decades subjugating. De-Baathification, joblessness, and the disbanding of the army helped further push the Sunni towards insurgency.

    Now, it appears that the "Salvadoran Solution" of US sponsored anti-Sunni death squads that was discussed in Newsweek last January may be covertly coming to fruition. Here's a bit from that Newsweek article:

    Now, NEWSWEEK has learned, the Pentagon is intensively debating an option that dates back to a still-secret strategy in the Reagan administration’s battle against the leftist guerrilla insurgency in El Salvador in the early 1980s. Then, faced with a losing war against Salvadoran rebels, the U.S. government funded or supported "nationalist" forces that allegedly included so-called death squads directed to hunt down and kill rebel leaders and sympathizers. Eventually the insurgency was quelled, and many U.S. conservatives consider the policy to have been a success—despite the deaths of innocent civilians and the subsequent Iran-Contra arms-for-hostages scandal. (Among the current administration officials who dealt with Central America back then is John Negroponte, who is today the U.S. ambassador to Iraq. Under Reagan, he was ambassador to Honduras.). . .

    Shahwani also said that the U.S. occupation has failed to crack the problem of broad support for the insurgency. The insurgents, he said, "are mostly in the Sunni areas where the population there, almost 200,000, is sympathetic to them." He said most Iraqi people do not actively support the insurgents or provide them with material or logistical help, but at the same time they won’t turn them in. One military source involved in the Pentagon debate agrees that this is the crux of the problem, and he suggests that new offensive operations are needed that would create a fear of aiding the insurgency. "The Sunni population is paying no price for the support it is giving to the terrorists," he said. "From their point of view, it is cost-free. We have to change that equation." LINK
    Okay, so last January, the Pentagon was discussing using a "Salvadoran" death squad policy as a way to make the Sunni population 'pay the price' for supporting the insurgency. Presumably, John Negroponte, who oversaw the earlier policy wasn't sent to Iraq for his health, because we now have this:

    As the American military pushes the largely Shiite Iraqi security services into a larger role in combating the insurgency, evidence has begun to mount suggesting that the Iraqi forces are carrying out executions in predominantly Sunni neighborhoods.

    Hundreds of accounts of killings and abductions have emerged in recent weeks, most of them brought forward by Sunni civilians, who claim that their relatives have been taken away by Iraqi men in uniform without warrant or explanation.

    Some Sunni men have been found dead in ditches and fields, with bullet holes in their temples, acid burns on their skin, and holes in their bodies apparently made by electric drills. Many have simply vanished.

    Some of the young men have turned up alive in prison. In a secret bunker discovered earlier this month in an Interior Ministry building in Baghdad, American and Iraqi officials acknowledged that some of the mostly Sunni inmates appeared to have been tortured.

    Bayan Jabr, the interior minister, and other government officials denied any government involvement, saying the killings were carried out by men driving stolen police cars and wearing police and army uniforms purchased at local markets. “Impossible! Impossible!” Mr. Jabr said. “That is totally wrong; it’s only rumors; it is nonsense.”

    Many of the claims of killings and abductions have been substantiated by at least one human rights organization working here - which asked not to be identified because of safety concerns - and documented by Sunni leaders working in their communities.

    American officials, who are overseeing the training of the Iraqi Army and the police, acknowledge that police officers and Iraqi soldiers, and the militias with which they are associated, may indeed be carrying out killings and abductions in Sunni communities, without direct (emphasis mine) American knowledge.

    But they also say it is difficult, in an already murky guerrilla war, to determine exactly who is responsible. The American officials insisted on anonymity because they were working closely with the Iraqi government and did not want to criticize it publicly.

    The widespread conviction among Sunnis that the Shiite-led government is bent on waging a campaign of terror against them is sending waves of fear through the community, just as Iraqi and American officials are trying to coax the Sunnis to take part in nationwide elections on Dec. 15.

    Sunnis believe that the security forces are carrying out sectarian reprisals, in part to combat the insurgency, but also in revenge for years of repression at the hands of Saddam Hussein’s government.

    Ayad Allawi, a prominent Iraqi politician who is close to the Sunni community, charged in an interview published Sunday in The London Observer that the Iraqi government - and the Ministry of Interior in particular - was condoning torture and running death squads. LINK
    Death squads being put into use by the Iraqi government does not seem like an improvement to the situation, and it does not seem like an indication that any kind of democracy has been created in Iraq.

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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Boy those sneaky Jews, huh?
    Would you like to read the leading Jewish Isreali military analists take on Iraq for balance Xiahou ?
    Very different from the Senators take on it , somehow I don't think you will like what he writes , but the US military do , they have his works on their "required reading" list .

  9. #9

    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    Boy those sneaky Jews, huh?
    Oh, I can see you're too smart to be taken in by any suggestion that a committed Zionist like Lieberman might actually be swayed by his ties to his beloved Israel.

    Have you ever actually bothered to find out who the neocons behind the invasion of Iraq are?

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    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by screwtype
    Have you ever actually bothered to find out who the neocons behind the invasion of Iraq are?
    People voted in by a mostly christian electorate ?
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    Member Member Mumu Champion Prodigal's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by doc_bean
    People voted in by a mostly christian electorate ?
    Who believe the world's a few thousand years old! (I'm posting this point erratically in the hope someones going to admit that they believe it).

    Oh, & yes of course it was a Jewish plot, had nothing to do with oil *nuh-uh*, or doing what your daddy tells you. Now lets see if anyone can guess who the only ex-president is who excercises his rights to read CIA updates.

    Personally I think that its well worth considering the words of Eisenhower in his last speech as president...And this was in '61

    "American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

    This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

    In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

    We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."


    Edited as I missed a bit out...
    Last edited by Prodigal; 11-30-2005 at 14:36.

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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodigal
    Oh, & yes of course it was a Jewish plot, had nothing to do with oil *nuh-uh*, or doing what your daddy tells you.
    What is wrong with you people? Where did I say there was a "Jewish plot"?

    I also believe that oil is the primary driver behind the war in Iraq. Cheney did not call Iraq "the great prize" some years ago for nothing.

    But that doesn't mean oil is the only consideration. Most of the neocons are committed Zionists, many of them are indeed former Likudniks who worked for Benjamin Netanyahu. They are folks who are very interested in promoting policies that benefit Israel.

    As it happens, I regret bringing the neocons up because I'm not interested in starting a discussion about them. I simply wanted to point out that a committed Zionist like Lieberman has very obvious ulterior motives for seeing the US involved in the ME. He has taken a stand well to the right of most of his party on Iraq and it isn't hard to figure out why.

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    Member Member Mumu Champion Prodigal's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Sorry wasn't attacking you in particular, I only scanned the other posts & it all sort of seemed to be leaning toward the Jewish plot for world domination. I very strongly feel ol' Dwight saw the Monster coming, & it just got hungry & decided it was time to be fed.

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Who believe the world's a few thousand years old! (I'm posting this point erratically in the hope someones going to admit that they believe it).
    Dont hold your breath waiting. That is unless Nav shows up.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    http://www.forward.com/articles/6936
    An interesting read for anyone interested . A change from Lieberman .
    Or Bushs recycled old crap that he gave out again today .

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    http://www.forward.com/articles/6936
    An interesting read for anyone interested . A change from Lieberman .
    Or Bushs recycled old crap that he gave out again today .
    Wait, Im confused- is the Iraq war a Zionist conspiracy or not? It is, since Lieberman is for it (clearly putting the needs of Israel above his country and his electorate, right?), yet Van Creveld is against it. I don't know what to think.

    As a side note, I hope to never hear any who criticize Lieberman's motives ever cry about someone supposedly questioning their patriotism.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 11-30-2005 at 18:59.
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    yet Van Creveld is against it.
    And why is Van Crevald against it Xiahou ?
    Is it because he thinks it is the biggest political/military ballsup for 2000 years ? Is it because it is screwing the US up ? is it because it is benefitting the terrorists ? is it because it is aiding Iran ?
    But you are OK , it isn't like vietnam , its worse , much worse , so throw that one out next time someone makes a comparison to Vietnam

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    yet Van Creveld is against it.
    And why is Van Crevald against it Xiahou ?
    Well, Im not going to make a snap judgement about the guy based on 1 peice, but he seems pretty incoherent on this one at least. He claims we need to pull out ASAP because we're failing and soldiers are dying, ect. Yet, he says that many soldiers will die during his 'inevitable' pullout, and then goes on to say we wouldnt be really withdrawing anyhow, since we'll have to leave an undetermined "moderate" number of troops in Iraq for security. You'll have to explain to me how that makes sense, since he's apparently singing your tune.

    Regardless, dont his assertions put down this 'Zionist' interest plot? So now why did Leiberman say what he did if it's not because he's a traitor to America?

    But you are OK , it isn't like vietnam , its worse , much worse , so throw that one out next time someone makes a comparison to Vietnam
    Whatever you're smoking, I think it's time to lay off it for awhile.
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Regardless, dont his assertions put down this 'Zionist' interest plot?
    What plot ? who is on about a Zionist plot ??????
    If there was an Israeli plot it certainly isn't being followed as the last thing they would want is a stronger Iran . The only major Israeli involvement in Iraq is that they are backing one Kurdish group to counter the Iranian backed group , though both groups are supposed to be working together with American backing (work that one out )

    You'll have to explain to me how that makes sense, since he's apparently singing your tune.

    Its quite simple Xiahou , they have no option but to withdraw , but they cannot withdraw .Your government has chosen a battle in Iraq that it cannot win , but cannot afford to lose . So they are well and truly stuck .

    So now why did Leiberman say what he did if it's not because he's a traitor to America?
    ??????????Errrrrr ...what ?

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    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Worst screw-up in 2000 years?

    Pass the substances over here, please.

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    Its quite simple Xiahou , they have no option but to withdraw , but they cannot withdraw .Your government has chosen a battle in Iraq that it cannot win , but cannot afford to lose . So they are well and truly stuck .
    So, we have to finish the job then? I guess everyone agrees afterall.

    So now why did Leiberman say what he did if it's not because he's a traitor to America?
    ??????????Errrrrr ...what ?
    Isnt that what these statements are implying?
    So, the Senator for Tel Aviv is in favour of American intervention in the ME. What a suprise!

    No doubt he and his Israeli pals will be cheering from the sidelines yet again when the US invades Iran. After all, why fight your own battles when you can get some other schlub to do all the fighting and dying for you?
    Oh, I can see you're too smart to be taken in by any suggestion that a committed Zionist like Lieberman might actually be swayed by his ties to his beloved Israel.
    I realize you didnt make those statements Tribesman, but my comments weren't directly addressed to you either.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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  22. #22

    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Im not going to make a snap judgement about the guy based on 1 peice
    Would you like another piece , there are hundreds of articles and interviews out there by him ?
    http://www.sonshi.com/vancreveld.html

    So, we have to finish the job then? I guess everyone agrees afterall.
    Yes , but how ? It cannot be finished can it , it is an endless cycle the only option would have been not to get into the cycle , but its too late now , the only other option is to flatten the place and everyone in it , but that isn't an option is it .

    realize you didnt make those statements Tribesman, but my comments weren't directly addressed to you either.
    Hey its only me mentioned or quoted in the post Xiahou .
    Perhaps you could have used Would you like to read the leading Jewish Isreali military analists take on Iraq for balance Xiahou ?
    Very different from the Senators take on it ,
    or An interesting read for anyone interested . A change from Lieberman .


    Is Lieberman asserting that there are only 10k left after the slew we've killeed or detained?

    If so, that is excellent news, since the accepted ratio for supression of guerilla fighters is 10-1 and we do have that many boots.

    Seamus that 10,000 is just a figure that he has plucked from the air , latest estimates vary between 22-35000 , but they are just various government and intelligence estimates .

  23. #23
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Tribesman:

    Unlike you, I do think the USA can win this conflict in Iraq. The reason we haven't moved forward towards a conclusion with more dispatch is that we have never harnessed our resources properly for the task.

    If we assume 30k terrorists/guerillas in opposition, coalition forces would need somewhere between 250k and 300k boots to effectively suppress and gradually marginalize their efforts. The coalition has fewer than 200k troops in Iraq and the Iraqis themselves are not yet fielding the 100k+ needed to make the difference. They'll get there, but anybody who thinks its gonna happen in 90 days or less is tippling too much potcheen.

    Right now, we have a 7-1 ratio as opposed to the 10-1. I have read sources that say that 7-1 is sufficient, but I suspect that the lower ratio also means higher casualties and a longer time horizon for success. As you will recall from a few RTW battles, if you go in with a huge advantage, its just faster and easier all around.

    Back in Sep '01 we should have gone for a formal DOW against extra-national terrorism and followed it up with a formal DOW against Iraq and truly mobilized the power of the USA -- and yes, I do mean a draft as well. Most of our military wouldn't want a draftee in the platoon next to them -- and I'd agree -- but there are a snot-load of jobs draftees could fill and we'd end up with more boots where we need them.

    In the long run, though, I do think we'll prevail -- I just wish we'd used the bigger hammer and finished it up sooner.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  24. #24

    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Unlike you, I do think the USA can win this conflict in Iraq. The reason we haven't moved forward towards a conclusion with more dispatch is that we have never harnessed our resources properly for the task.

    "Can" Seamus ? Don't you mean "Could have" .
    Can you really see congress or the senate approving the neccesary measures at this stage , not to mention the neccesary monies .
    They knew from Afghanistan that the civilian contractors were largely a waste of time and money , why is it only now after nearly all the allocated funds have gone that they are following the provisional reconstuction group schemes that were implemented there ?

  25. #25
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Yes "can," and I believe will.

    Even without the kind of increase I outlined, I do believe we can prevail as we have the 7-1 ratio for minimal effectiveness. I just get ticked off when it should have been done faster and better -- and probably with fewer dead -- if it wasn't done "on the cheap." As it is, I believe we'll pull it off, but I'd be a lot happier with the US leadership if that believe was "know" -- onlly they didn't put that kind of muscle behind the effort.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  26. #26
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    If you'd like to see Joe defending his position on video, here's a handy source:

    http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/11/30.html#a6119

  27. #27
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemurmania
    If you'd like to see Joe defending his position on video, here's a handy source:

    http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/11/30.html#a6119
    OMG, Imus?? MSNBC puts anyone on the air dont they?
    Last edited by Xiahou; 12-01-2005 at 08:02.
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  28. #28
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    You were expecting Ann Coulter?

  29. #29

    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Yes "can," and I believe will.

    Even without the kind of increase I outlined, I do believe we can prevail as we have the 7-1 ratio for minimal effectiveness.
    Minimal effectiveness , without increase . Well thats buggered then
    Without increase minimal effectiveness just keeps things the same , since the terrorism/insurgency is increasing and the military presence is decreasing then you have negative effectiveness .
    More of the same , staying the course , is just achieving nothing .
    A massive increase in the presence is needed , but that will feed the insurgency/flow of foriegn fighters , unless it is so massive that it is able to secure the entire country and allow for the the redevelopment to proceed very quickly to show real and sustained improvements in conditions for all the citizens , not meaningless rubbish like how many mobile phones have been sold , or how they are now making more money overall because oil companies are now exporting oil at an increased price instead of exporting it at below cost within "tight" restrictions .
    While they put out often contradictory figures on the numbers and effectivness of domestic forces , they try to gloss over the effective running losses of those forces which is averaging around 20% . Plus they talk of the Iraqi police and military forces yet ignore that the two are run by diametricly opposed groups who are effectively at war with each other to further their own agendas ????
    America and its dwindling numbers of allies will not do a massive increase , they are all talking of reductions/withdrawing , new allies are not forthcoming .

    So not "can" and "will" , it is "could have but didn't" and "can but won't" .

  30. #30
    Member Member KafirChobee's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOE LIEBERMAN Tells it like it is.

    Joe cost the Democrats 3million votes in 2000. He owes his allegance to Israel, and if he were arrested tomorrow as an Israeli spy? I for one would not be surprised.
    To forgive bad deeds is Christian; to reward them is Republican. 'MC' Rove
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