German American Friendship

[Franconicus]

After the statements of the German government it is now clear:
US authorities kidnapped, imprisoned and tortured a German citizen without a trial or something similar. He was captured in Europe, had no weapons and no intention to attack anybody. After several months they released him because they realized they had the wrong man. German ministers were informed after the release. The US told them that they paid the victim a compensation.

German government also admitted that German officers took part at questioning another person at Gitmo. It is still not clear who ordered this.

So it seams to be proven:
that the US authorities kidnapp imprison and torture people
that they do not respect the rights of a German citizen
that German ministers did not inform the parliament about it
that Germans took part in questioning at Gitmo.

I think that the new German government shoud demand G.W. Bush to apology for that incident, promise to punish those who did it and guarantee that this will never happen again. Furthermore the Americans should dissociate from any kind of torture.

If they will not, Germany should take consequenzes.

[English assassin]

Act of war, kidnapping and torturing a citizen of another state...

[Lazul]

Thats just bloody disgusting. Wish the EU politicans could grow some balls and give the US administration the finger unless they stop with the whole torture thing.

[Brutus]

Shouldn't memebers of the former German government apologize as well? They, afer all, did know about it, but said nothing. I believe one of the members of your current (as well as former) government is already on hot coal? (is that last even an English expression?)

Anyway, seems clear to me what the CIA will now remember what to do to innocent people they wrongly captured, imprisoned and tortured: kill them instead of releasing them. Dead people don't complain to the international media.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Anyway, seems clear to me what the CIA will now remember what to do to innocent people they wrongly captured, imprisoned and tortured: kill them instead of releasing them. Dead people don't complain to the international media.

That might work in the short term, but if they get a leak, there will be more mass media storm than in this case. Releasing innocent prisoners might be a sign that the American leadership hasn't gone too far in their development towards power abuse which we've seen different signs of since ww2, but it might also be that they're simply thinking strategically. The news of formerly innocent prisoners being killed because of the fear of letting the public know of the incident, would be truly devastating, whereas this event will most likely be forgotten by most people in a few weeks. Furthermore, it's even acting as good publicity for the American government, as the incident clearly says that: "the American government corrects is mistakes and releases people who turned out to be innocent", which takes away the eyes of the world from Guantanamo, where people against whom there's no official proof of guiltiness, not even an official charge, are still sitting without having recieved trials or any information of for how long their sentences will last.

The German government is of course also making a mistake. The question is whether it's cowardice to stand up for their opinion against the USA, or if it's simply that they're supporting the actions of the USA, even against their own citizens. But there's a lot of hidden racism in many European governments - because the victim wasn't white the government didn't care as much as they would have otherwise.

[PanzerJaeger]

Act of war, kidnapping and torturing a citizen of another state...

I think we learned an important lesson the first two times.

[Kanamori]

I want America's war on terror to fail, and I want the terrorists to win.

[Lemur]

Why do you hate freedom, Kanamori?

[Adrian II]

Why do you hate freedom, Kanamori?

Must be the European blood of his ancestors speaking. Me too, I hate America. I hate freedom. I love terrorism. I want to die quickly. I am insecure. I am bisexual so my love life is a disaster. I walked out on my wife and kids, let the state take care of them. I love robbing liquor stores and blaming society for it. I am decadent, I never put in a decent day's work all my life. I smoke pot. I hate myself. I want to be oppressed. Hit me.

[Byzantine Prince]

Hey Adrian, the balkan in me is taking over.
I too hate freedom, I hate America, I love Hollywood, I love immorality, I hate people, I hate religion, I hate nature, I hate food, I love to watch obscene pornography, I hate society in general. What are you going to do about it?

[Adrian II]

Hey Adrian, the balkan in me is taking over.
I too hate freedom, I hate America, I love Hollywood, I love immorality, I hate people, I hate religion, I hate nature, I hate food, I love to watch obscene pornography, I hate society in general. What are you going to do about it?

Sit in a corner and sulk about my low welfare allowance. Complain that nobody understands me. Post threads saying 'I knew it, I told you so' every time something goes wrong. Laugh at other peoples' misery. Read pornography, abuse children. Be a rat to my friends. Be as European as I can.

[Samurai Waki]

I remain completely neutral on this issue. I believe both sides should apologise, shake hands, and then synonamously jab a rusty pointed dagger into each others back's. Issue resolved.

[English assassin]

Act of war, kidnapping and torturing a citizen of another state...

I think we learned an important lesson the first two times.

So did we. Next time we want the Germans on OUR side.

[Ja'chyra]

So did we. Next time we want the Germans on OUR side.

Especially as they make most of our small arms

[KafirChobee]

So, it's a funny thing? Is OK for the CIA to kidnap innocent people amd torture them? Is a good thing really - makes the EU and USA closer.

Whoa. Who'ld a guessed?

Germany of all nations, I would have believed, might be super-sensative about secret police and torture. Sure is good to hear that Bushy and his minions are on the same page as y'all. Makes it alot easier when our CIA snatches the next person on the the bequest of or information provided by your government. Face up, it was the German intelligence agencies that gave the go on snatching the person in the first place. Is hard to imagine a US agency could possibly infiltrate a European nation and kidnap one of their citizens without the aid of that nations own secret police. Or, is the CIA the new improved James Bond version of the 60's reborn?

Get real. We take the blame for other nations foul-ups, because they are unwilling to step up to the plate on terrorists. Wouldn't want to offend anyone, would we? And, since Bush already has? Why not just push it off on him? Seems reasonable to me.

Just, pleaseeeeeeee, stop trying to take the high road on these things. The EU really doesn't have one - where terrorists is concerned (they just turn the nasty stuff over to others). All the units of it are more than willing to let the US take the brunt of abuse, while pointing the finger at the next innocent person they want us to take (or investigate with extrodinary means).

Shame on y'all.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Simple answer - don't take them, then blame the German government for not taking them, if they turn out to be terrorists. Or take them, but don't use torture. But a small team following the guy and ready to interfere with the him if he seems to be doing terrorism, instead of capturing and torturing him. Then you don't get any official shame, because you simply haven't done anything unethical.

[Geoffrey S]

Thats just bloody disgusting. Wish the EU politicans could grow some balls and give the US administration the finger unless they stop with the whole torture thing.

I wish EU politicians would admit that on the one hand they publically criticise the US and their war on terror, yet on the other hand manage to profit from the intelligence gained through the US' methods and appararently actively participate in torture. And politicians can only keep this up because of the general apathy of the population.

Simple answer - don't take them, then blame the German government for not taking them, if they turn out to be terrorists. Or take them, but don't use torture. But a small team following the guy and ready to interfere with the him if he seems to be doing terrorism, instead of capturing and torturing him. Then you don't get any official shame, because you simply haven't done anything unethical.

Manpower would be a problem for that, particularly if it's kept up for a longer period of time.

[solypsist]

i didnt see a single news or source link in this entire thread so far.

[Redleg]

YAWN

The hypocrisy of Europe is just amazing..

[Rodion Romanovich]

Manpower would be a problem for that, particularly if it's kept up for a longer period of time.

Yes, if you make an entire nation like Iraq potential terrorist material by attacking them and handling it so carelessly, then you need much manpower to guard all potential future terrorists.

[Rodion Romanovich]

YAWN

The hypocrisy of Europe is just amazing..

Yeah, it's Europe being hypocritical when they give USA information they requested. Bush said, you might remember, "either you're with me or against me", and thereby tried to force all countries to change policy and report any signs of terror-like activity to the USA. Of course it's the fault of the Europeans that Americans abuse that information, which they requested in a very threatening way, for torture.

Europe is not perfect, but they're apprently better than a certain nation which commits torture and murder, and holds people in a concentration camp in Cuba without trial, then blaming it all on European hypocricy.

[Tribesman]

YAWN
the hypocracy of the war on terror is absolutely incredible .

[Redleg]

Yeah, it's Europe being hypocritical when they give USA information they requested. Bush said, you might remember, "either you're with me or against me", and thereby tried to force all countries to change policy and report any signs of terror-like activity to the USA. Of course it's the fault of the Europeans that Americans abuse that information, which they requested in a very threatening way, for torture.

Europe is not perfect, but they're apprently better than a certain nation which commits torture and murder, and holds people in a concentration camp in Cuba without trial, then blaming it all on European hypocricy.

You might want to check into how much the European Governments have a hand in the kidnaping and torture of their own citizens. Its greater then your comment here suggests.

Again Yawn

Would you care to see the articles in the media on it?

[Redleg]

YAWN
the hypocracy of the war on terror is absolutely incredible .

There is no hypocrisy in war. Its amoral and doesn't care what the truth is - only that one wins the war in which they are engaged in.

Something you Europeans - especially those from Ireland - have seem to have forgotten.

[Rodion Romanovich]

There is no hypocrisy in war. Its amoral and doesn't care what the truth is - only that one wins the war in which they are engaged in.

Something you Europeans - especially those from Ireland - have seem to have forgotten.

Only that the fighting terrorism isn't a war. With Bush's way of looking at things, everything can be a war. This debate can be a war. The "war on disagreeing posters" must be won, no matter what the truth is. Bleh, hypocrisy. What you're saying is simply that if you call something a war you're relieved of all moral responsibilities.

[Redleg]

Only that the fighting terrorism isn't a war.

Actually it is - I can name several of them not involving the United States.

http://www.intifada.com/palestine.html

With Bush's way of looking at things, everything can be a war. This debate can be a war. The "war on disagreeing posters" must be won, no matter what the truth is. Bleh, hypocrisy.

The difference is that you only want to see the hypocrisy of the United States - without looking at the hypocrisy of your own government.

If you think the governments of the majority of European nations are not in the middle of this issue - just less so then the United States - then you are turning a blind eye to the issue.

Its easier to blame the United States -then it is to look at what is actually going on within your own borders.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

[Tribesman]

There is no hypocrisy in war. Its amoral and doesn't care what the truth is - only that one wins the war in which they are engaged in.


Red there is plenty of hypocracy in the war on terror , the basic fact that it is against terrorists and regimes who used to be your friends before they became your enemies and is replacing them with terrorists who used to be your enemies but are alledgedly your friends , but will soon be your enemies again .
Then it cannot be won can it .

Edit to add The difference is that you only want to see the hypocrisy of the United States - without looking at the hypocrisy of your own government.

Hmmmm.....windmills again is it ?
The German government is of course also making a mistake.

Europe is not perfect
Shouldn't memebers of the former German government apologize as well?
that German ministers did not inform the parliament about it
that Germans took part in questioning at Gitmo.

I believe both sides should apologise
there's a lot of hidden racism in many European governments
Wish the EU politicans could grow some balls
I wish EU politicians would admit that on the one hand they publically criticise the US and their war on terror, yet on the other hand manage to profit from the intelligence gained through the US' methods and appararently actively participate in torture.
Yep , definately an absence of criticism of europe .
Hey you did exactly the same in the CIA flights topic , are you having difficulty reading lately ?

[Redleg]

There is no hypocrisy in war. Its amoral and doesn't care what the truth is - only that one wins the war in which they are engaged in.


Red there is plenty of hypocracy in the war on terror ,

I see more hypocrisy in your posts then I see anywhere else in the world. Again war is amoral - no hypocrisy is possible when one fights to win the war. I guess you would not like what the allies did to win WW2 against Germany and Japan either?

the basic fact that it is against terrorists and regimes who used to be your friends before they became your enemies and is replacing them with terrorists who used to be your enemies but are alledgedly your friends , but will soon be your enemies again

You got the doublespeak of a government agent down very well - maybe you should run for office

Then it cannot be won can it .

With people like you - it can never be won - but it seems your own country has shown that your words are false. Or is the IRA rearming itself as we type?

[Tribesman]

Or is the IRA rearming itself as we type?


No they are waiting for the British to organise a couple more massive shipments of guns and explosives for them , just like last time .Probably try N.Korea this time as eastern Europe is too expensive for the British taxpayer now . It is important to get value for money when you are murdering your own citizens .
Then they will wait for britain to recruit loads of "terrorists" to go round bombing british cities and killing british soldiers , just like last time .

So I take it from your statment that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about there Red .

[Byzantine Prince]

So I take it from your statment that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about there Red .

Has he ever known what he was talking about?

It must be that ex-soldier arrogance.