STRATEGY GAMES: SIMULATION or BASEBUILDING DUMBING DOWN?

[hellenes]

Hellenes you are trying to compare apples (RTS games) and oranges (TW). You can't make a fair comparison. TW is essenially a turn based stratedy game with real time battles. Now granted the big name developers of RTS games are doing nothing to advance the genre (EA, blizzard, microsoft) but the mid level and small RTS developers are trying to make original RTS games. Like 40k Dawn of war (the most oringinal RTS game in years), LOTR battle for middle earth, and Cossacks 2. Now all of these games have at least a basic morale system (and in the case of Cossacks a near TW level morale system) and much less resource collection. In all of them the resource collection involves capture and/or build something=cash. All use units that are more than one guy. But none of them are going to be TW, they all have elements lifted from TW and used to make their game stand out. But since TW is a TBS/RTS hybrid you have to actively ape it's style to have a game anyhting like it.

Im not comparing anything Im merely stating the stalmate and the dumbed down nature of the whole "RTS" industry that FEARS innovation and change.
LOTR BFME was the greatest dissapoitment for me and many others, contrary to EA's hype FAKE pictures it didnt resemble even at 1% the scale of the movies, it didnt have even the camera to view the SKY!!! Its so called "emotion" system was morale as much as Im Santa...units just animated "fear" for a second and then BLINDLY obeyed and fought. That together with the tragic fact that they tried to make massive melee game on a tanks and gunwarfare engine (C&C Generals) showed how desperatly they grabbed on the same old formula.
40k Dawn of War is a decent gunpowder warfare game that is bound by the inability of scale due to the nature of modern warfare, however in doing what it does it achieved a decent level of immersion and tactics.
My point is that in Napoleonic and back era the Total War series are the only that can come close to simulate the scale of warfare and I hope that other developers (Pyro Imperial Glory) copy and enhanche that so the TW become the new Dune...

Hellenes

[lars573]

It won't be by design but it will probably in the end. Simply put RTS games getting more like a TW game is inevitable. Even the great and influencial AOE is using 5 man squads in it's thrid instalment. Reason is that the old CnC/Dune2 formula has been beaten to a pulp and any new idea is going to be a derivative of what CA though up 7 years ago.


Also BFME wasn't a dissapointment for me. I'm always expecting a developer to promise a BMW and deliver a Mini.

[hellenes]

It won't be by design but it will probably in the end. Simply put RTS games getting more like a TW game is inevitable. Even the great and influencial AOE is using 5 man squads in it's thrid instalment. Reason is that the old CnC/Dune2 formula has been beaten to a pulp and any new idea is going to be a derivative of what CA though up 7 years ago.


Also BFME wasn't a dissapointment for me. I'm always expecting a developer to promise a BMW and deliver a Mini.

I hope too but it wont happen too soon as long as CA treats Multiplayer as a bastard child...
AoE III as far as Im aware can group units and I believe it did it in the previus installment too the units have no flanks though and are produced as single man...So sad that Ensemble didnt dare to innovate...

Hellenes

[lars573]

Well speaking in terms of percentages people who try to play any kind of RTS game online are neither large enough to matter nor very vocal. Sure the hardest of hardcore fans of a stratedgy game always crow for more and better multiplayer, but hardcore players are a small miniority with little influence. I just wish they would learn that.

So sad that Ensemble didnt dare to innovate...

They couldn't afford to innovate in the game play. Just moving out of swords and bows combat lost them enough players as it is. People really don't like change mush, no matter how much they bitch for it. I mean look at RTW....

[Slyspy]

I would like to point out that TW games are not RTS games anyway. The strategy part is turnbased, only the tactical part is realtime. In your traditional RTS only the base-building is actually RTS. I do agree with Hellenes though, I find that kind of game extremely boring and childish. Buts thats just my opinion of course.

PS
I thought that Dune 2 was the first. Dune was an RPG IIRC. Which I probably don't.

[TinCow]

IMO the best tactical/strategy games are the Close Combat series. They blow away everything else, even the TW series, in their modeling of morale and reaction of troops during combat. Too bad the AI in the Close Combat games is even worse than in TW. :P

[ShadesWolf]

My ideal game would be Civ with a mixture of Total war battles.

[Slyspy]

IMO the best tactical/strategy games are the Close Combat series. They blow away everything else, even the TW series, in their modeling of morale and reaction of troops during combat. Too bad the AI in the Close Combat games is even worse than in TW. :P

Certainly the best RTS. However the best tactical games are the Combat Mission series, though they employ a simultaneous turn-based system.