Is it time for the UK to leave the EU (UK only Please)

[JAG]

IA - our economy has only got as strong as it is now because of the EU and the benefits we have gained from it, soemtiems you need to step back from your petty nationalistic stance and take a look at the good in the EU, there is a reason so many, even in this country, support it.

[InsaneApache]

IA - our economy has only got as strong as it is now because of the EU and the benefits we have gained from it, soemtiems you need to step back from your petty nationalistic stance and take a look at the good in the EU, there is a reason so many, even in this country, support it.

We have crossed swords on this before and you know my attitude to the EU. As for the EU being responsible for our economic success....well wtf happened to France and Germany then?....you just can't bring yourself to admit that Thatcher got it right and that the 'Left' got left behind.

My beef with the EU is that it is an undemocratic, corrupt institution. I have no problem with economic union. That, after all, was what the UK voted on back in '75. It's called democracy m8

[Red Peasant]

We're not helping the EU? Odd, last time I checked, we were actually paying several billion Euros into it every year. Edit: For clarity. that's the net, not total contribution

I feel European as well as British, and hope that we stay in the EU. Edit: However, it does need to be reformed to be simpler and more modern.

The UK is the second largest NET contributor (i.e. even after the rebate) to the EU and nearly always has been as far as I know, so it really annoys me when nationals from certain countries (who have only ever taken from the pot) start pontificating about Britain this and Britain that.

Britain has invested a hell of a lot of money developing these economies and we need to stay around to make sure we reap any economic benefits, and we won't do that from the outside.

[Ja'chyra]

IA - our economy has only got as strong as it is now because of the EU and the benefits we have gained from it, soemtiems you need to step back from your petty nationalistic stance and take a look at the good in the EU, there is a reason so many, even in this country, support it.

Maybe you should take a step back from the ridicule you try to force on anyone who doesn't agree with your views, petty, loons etc.

It amuses me that the ones who were shouting the loudest about our rebate are the ones who take most of the money from the CAP and souldn't even see the hypocrasy.

[Marcellus]

Need I remind you, again, how much the EU budget represents for each country's GDP? Blair acknowledged it himself. The EU budget is symbolic.

It represents 1.045% of each country's GDP. For the UK that would be about £10.8 billion. It's hardly a small amount of money.

You have a strange conception of what political ambition means. In my opinion, you're describing economic ambition, which I will not deny the UK has aplenty, something we need desperately over here.
To clarify the situation, by political ambition I meant a political union. A set of institutions that would take over our respective institutions. An ambition to create a federal state like Germany or the USA, not just a mere economic union.

That's one vision of Europe. Just because you want a different idea for Europe doesn't mean that you lack political ambition. The UK wants to change Europe, maybe not into a federal state, but it does want to introduce serious reforms. That requires a lot of political ambition.

[Ldvs]

It represents 1.045% of each country's GDP. For the UK that would be about £10.8 billion. It's hardly a small amount of money.

Of course it's not a small amount of money if you take it out of the context. 1% of each country's budget sounds like the few coins you give to beggars, to me. Nonetheless, it goes without saying that if we could save the money wasted by the incompetent and unscrupulous bureaucrats and cut drastically in the CAP spendings, that would already help a lot without demanding further financial contribution.

That's one vision of Europe. Just because you want a different idea for Europe doesn't mean that you lack political ambition. The UK wants to change Europe, maybe not into a federal state, but it does want to introduce serious reforms. That requires a lot of political ambition.

So be it. I guess it depends on one's definition of political ambition.

[Ianofsmeg16]

We should leave....we're not european, we're british

[Geoffrey S]

We should leave....we're not european, we're british

The two aren't mutually exclusive, y'know.

[Ianofsmeg16]

You speak a different language, your foreign...no more EU!!

p.s. I'm joking I'm all for germany, the netherlands, even belgium!

[Meneldil]

My beef with the EU is that it is an undemocratic, corrupt institution. I have no problem with economic union. That, after all, was what the UK voted on back in '75. It's called democracy m8

Hell, if you only agreed to join an economical union in 75, you were seriously fooled by your leaders. European integration, wether it was called the ECSC, the EDC, the EEC or the EU, was - and I hope is still - aimed toward a political integration. The economical stuff was just one of the most important step toward this integration.

We have crossed swords on this before and you know my attitude to the EU. As for the EU being responsible for our economic success....well wtf happened to France and Germany then?....you just can't bring yourself to admit that Thatcher got it right and that the 'Left' got left behind.

...well, wtf happened to Spain and Portugal ? These 2 countries got wealthier directly thanks to the EU, while France and Germany issues are not related to EU whatsoever.

If EU was as bad as you're claiming, surely UK wouldn't have gotten wealthier in the last decades

BTW if the UK did leave the EU it would signal the death financially of this beast, after all we now prop up most of it after having our money filtched from our pockets, yet again

I suggest you read some reports on the EU budget. While each other member would have to give a few more euros, I highly doubt the EU would die simply because the Brits would left it. In fact, I'd rather say UK would have more troubles than EU.

Why don't they try standing on their own two feet ?

Because we aren't greedy bastards ? Because the wealthier they are, the wealthier we are ? Because they deserve some help ? Because I don't want Poland to turn into another Belarus ? Because if we don't help them, they'll just try to find a job into our countries ?

I'm sure a lot of American bitched when the US governement offered millions of dollars to France and UK after WWII. Would you have whined and bitched in 1946, when most of the things you could have bought were offered by the US taxpayers ?

[Just A Girl]

theres no The EU needs us option :(

[Louis VI the Fat]

theres no The EU needs us option :(

Obviously.

[English assassin]

I see today Chirac is running around saying that there is no chance the CAP will be reformed in any way, when yesterday the UK agreed to give up part of the rebate on the clear understanding that ALL parts of the EU budget would be reviewed. And they have the cheek to call the British perfidious?

You just can't do business with a lying two faced child born to unmarried parents like that, and for that reason we should leave immediately. I love all this high falutin' talk about how its all in the interests of Europe and stop being so national. Tell it to bloody Chirac before you lecture the UK. Or that great European who always put the continent's interests ahead of his country, Charles de Gaulle. (God forbid that we should ever do another country a favour again, they will hate you for it for ever)

Hell, if you only agreed to join an economical union in 75, you were seriously fooled by your leaders

Yes, we were.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

EA: my mum's always complaining about being lied to in '75 when some Euro crap is ongoing. I imagine she's doing it as I type.

[English assassin]

Yeah, my dad too, and he actually likes the French. He reckons the EU would have been fine for us provided we had gone into it with the intention to lie to everyone, chisel every penny out of it for ourselves and have one of the worst records for implimenting EU law, all the while lecturing everyone on the need to be good Europeans.

Like a certain nation I could mention.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I see today Chirac is running around saying that there is no chance the CAP will be reformed in any way, when yesterday the UK agreed to give up part of the rebate on the clear understanding that ALL parts of the EU budget would be reviewed.

Fooled you, didn't we?

[English assassin]

Fooled you, didn't we?

Every single time...

[Ldvs]

I see today Chirac is running around saying that there is no chance the CAP will be reformed in any way, when yesterday the UK agreed to give up part of the rebate on the clear understanding that ALL parts of the EU budget would be reviewed. And they have the cheek to call the British perfidious?

You just can't do business with a lying two faced child born to unmarried parents like that, and for that reason we should leave immediately. I love all this high falutin' talk about how its all in the interests of Europe and stop being so national. Tell it to bloody Chirac before you lecture the UK. Or that great European who always put the continent's interests ahead of his country, Charles de Gaulle. (God forbid that we should ever do another country a favour again, they will hate you for it for ever)

As much as I agree with you there, you're aiming at the wrong person. Chirac didn't get here by happenstance, although corruption did help. You should rather blame our political class's hypocrisy and dishonesty plaguing the political sphere since time immemorial. But don't forget that, first and foremost, it's stupid and short-sighted people who got him elected, may it be directly or indirectly.
And if everything goes wrong like it seems to be, the next president will be even worse. I give you a hint, it's a xenophobic, propagandist and fascist person who has sickening lust for power (N...... S......).

Beware, even a simple glimpse of him may cause nauseas and abominable headaches.
The Unnamed Beast http://www.ftd.de/asset/Image/2005/09/07/sarkozy.jpg

[InsaneApache]

If EU was as bad as you're claiming, surely UK wouldn't have gotten wealthier in the last decades

Well it's certainly a novel idea, even though it's complete bollox.

The reason the UK is spectacularly successful compared with most of our European brethren is because of the reforms we implemented in the late 70s to the late 80s. (and boy did they hurt) It's the market economy for us. Not that moronic ideal called the social model, we tried that and it made us bankrupt and incompetitive.

You gotta love the French leadership though, even if it's only for their barefaced cheek. Remember all this stems from Chirac getting a bloody good hiding at the poll for the EU constitution. Since then, to divert attention from his grubby politiking, he's banged on about the UK rebate. Shame on the posters here for falling for such an obvious ploy.....I mean even Baldrick could come up with a more cunning plan that that. (Even if it did work )

[Monarch]

There lies the problem. When you're only reasoning in terms of financial contribution, the rest of the EU is not.

Your saying nations such as the new Eastern european members (if you ask them why they joined, an honest person would probably say something along the lines of a better economy, or because we can earn more money. It's not just the money we pay, but alot of europeans work in britain because the quality of living is much better and pay is much better) and even the French do not care about British fiancial contribution? The union is all about trade, economies and very basically MONEY. I mean really, nations are just bound together because it's nice to get together and be happy bunnies?

I think we should stay in, but only even the amount everyone pays in is balanced.

[English assassin]

As much as I agree with you there, you're aiming at the wrong person. Chirac didn't get here by happenstance, although corruption did help. You should rather blame our political class's hypocrisy and dishonesty plaguing the political sphere since time immemorial. But don't forget that, first and foremost, it's stupid and short-sighted people who got him elected, may it be directly or indirectly.
And if everything goes wrong like it seems to be, the next president will be even worse. I give you a hint, it's a xenophobic, propagandist and fascist person who has sickening lust for power (N...... S......).

Well its nice that we are agreeing but its not making me feel much better about the EU. Maybe Merkel will save us, if she has any spare time after saving herself.

[lancelot]

As a European I do hope Britain leaves. Britain is not helping the EU, only causing problems. And it is costly for the rest of the EU languages. So please leave Britain, thank you

What a load of rubbish!

Britain pays a fortune to subsidise French! farmers so they can sell their goods back to us at an inflated price and we dont contribute???

[Ldvs]

Your saying nations such as the new Eastern european members

Where's the end of the phrase, please?

It's not just the money we pay, but alot of europeans work in britain because the quality of living is much better and pay is much better

Of course... I reckon you're not taking into account the lower third of your population, nor your poor health care system, nor your public school system, nor the precariousness of the majority of the jobs (it's not much better in France admittedly), nor...

and even the French do not care about British fiancial contribution?

Considering France is a net contributor, our farmers would get those subsidies whether we were in the EU or not. And for your information, I don't support the CAP.

The union is all about trade, economies and very basically MONEY

Is a Constitution all about money? I guess not.

I mean really, nations are just bound together because it's nice to get together and be happy bunnies?

While I won't be as optimistic, you cannot deny the fact that the countries who join (especially the smaller ones) are given extra weight on the international scene. I daresay they also prefer to be in the EU's sphere rather than in the USSR's.

[ShadesWolf]

If EU was as bad as you're claiming, surely UK wouldn't have gotten wealthier in the last decades

Its about currency, we have different money, and the stock market likes that.
Just look at AIM to see what I mean.

[Slyspy]

But why should we have a political union? What would be the benefit? We hardly get anything out of the beast as it is? Just another way for '2nd world' Europe to draw more money from advanced nations. Why don't they try standing on their own two feet ?

Here's an idea. Get the EU to sign off it's accounts. Then make the EU publish said accounts. Show where ALL the money is going. Force the finances to be transparent. Then we may see some changes in attitude. After all remember it is folks like myself who fund this edifice, governments and more importantly the EU doesn't have any money of it's own, it only has money it has taken from peoples pockets.

Bingo, we have a winner! As soon as the EU becomes a open and democratic pan-governmental organisation then it shall have my support as the beginning of a federal Europe. All I see now is a mess of incompetance, self-serving and dishonesty. How many years since the accounts were last signed off by the auditors? Eleven, thats how many. They cannot even control their own budget. I'm all in favour of a closer Europe but I think perhaps we need to start again......

[Geoffrey S]

Bingo, we have a winner! As soon as the EU becomes a open and democratic pan-governmental organisation then it shall have my support as the beginning of a federal Europe. All I see now is a mess of incompetance, self-serving and dishonesty. How many years since the accounts were last signed off by the auditors? Eleven, thats how many. They cannot even control their own budget. I'm all in favour of a closer Europe but I think perhaps we need to start again......

Fair enough. What is needed is for new rules and a new budget to be created to suit the current situation, not constantly tweaking outdated models from years ago so it'll run a little longer. Not the way to promote longevity in the Union, and it creates an awful lot of confusion and squabbling.

[Ja'chyra]

Maybe the UK should leave and start another EU, I wonder how many countries would leave the existing shambles and join the NEU (New European Union, cunning or what?)

That way we wouldn't have to let the French in at all and I have a sneaking suspicion that the EU could then be retitled France.

[Marcellus]

Where's the end of the phrase, please?

It's after the brackets:

Your saying nations such as the new Eastern european members (if you ask them why they joined, an honest person would probably say something along the lines of a better economy, or because we can earn more money. It's not just the money we pay, but alot of europeans work in britain because the quality of living is much better and pay is much better) and even the French do not care about British fiancial contribution?

[Ldvs]

It's after the brackets:

I see, quite a heavy sentence, isn't it? I don't know what I would do without you watching over me, Marcellus Nonethless, I think I made do.

[BDC]

Get rid of CAP and I'd be happier with it...

Why is our money going to farmers when we need to research and support industry?!